Penalty for sin is death

[Dave...]

Penalty for sin is death

Is this speaking of spiritual death, or physical death, or both together, or together, with one resulting from the other? I'm asking because when speaking of the sin nature, I always thought that it was the nature, thus spiritual. And the physical, while not the nature, is the result of that sin, which is the result of that nature.

What does thins all mean? I'm trying to understand how some believe that the physical is part is the sin nature. I don't see it.

Dave

 

[Hopeful 2]

Penalty for sin is death

Is this speaking of spiritual death, or physical death, or both together, or together, with one resulting from the other? I'm asking because when speaking of the sin nature, I always thought that it was the nature, thus spiritual. And the physical, while not the nature, is the result of that sin, which is the result of that nature.

What does thins all mean? I'm trying to understand how some believe that the physical is part is the sin nature. I don't see it.

Dave

Where do you read "the penalty for sin is death" ?

 

[hawkman]

Penalty for sin is death

Penalty for not eating of the tree of life is death . Penalty for not drinking of the living waters is death .

You might not want my opinion on "sin nature" .

Genesis 3:22 Context​

19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. 20And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. 21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Hopeful 2, Hawkman and Dave...,

Where do you read "the penalty for sin is death" ?

Perhaps the exact statement is a deduction, but this could be established from a number of passages. I consider the following is similar or equivalent.
Romans 6:23 (KJV): For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Penalty for not eating of the tree of life is death . Penalty for not drinking of the living waters is death .

I consider that this is true in itself, but in some way avoids what is taught in Genesis 3:19-24 which you quoted.

What does thins all mean? I'm trying to understand how some believe that the physical is part is the sin nature. I don't see it.

I found your initial statement a bit confusing, and also I am not really sure what exactly you are stating above. Looking again at the passage already quoted:
Genesis 3:17–19,22-24 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

I suggest before considering any other aspect, the above teaches that as a result of Adam's sin he was sentenced to return to the dust, and this is speaking about his physical death, his new position of mortality. All of Adam's descendants share in Adam's mortality. All of the above clearly teaches that the doctrine of immortal souls is erroneous.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[hawkman]

I suggest before considering any other aspect, the above teaches that as a result of Adam's sin he was sentenced to return to the dust, and this is speaking about his physical death, his new position of mortality. All of Adam's descendants share in Adam's mortality. All of the above clearly teaches that the doctrine of immortal souls is erroneous.

I don't see it as a sentence at all , I see it as God telling Adam the facts since Adam was now separated from the Tree of Life in the garden , no curse of death just the fact that death was inevitable . The ground was cursed , that is a fact .
Do you understand what I am saying ?

 

[LeviR]

Penalty for sin is death

Is this speaking of spiritual death, or physical death, or both together, or together, with one resulting from the other? I'm asking because when speaking of the sin nature, I always thought that it was the nature, thus spiritual. And the physical, while not the nature, is the result of that sin, which is the result of that nature.

What does thins all mean? I'm trying to understand how some believe that the physical is part is the sin nature. I don't see it.

Dave

The Bible doesn’t mention anything about “spiritual death”. It is an idea of man who brings it into scripture.

One of their arguments is that God told Adam he would die on the day he ate of the fruit. And simce Adam didn’t die that day, it is assumed he died spiritually.

However, God told Adam he was dust and would return to dust on the day he did actually eat.
Adam was dead from that point forward because he was given the death sentence, not because he became “spiritually dead”.

Another example is when Jesus said “let the dead bury their dead”. Here again it is assumed that those who are burying the ones who have died are “spiritually dead”. But again, they are called dead because they are under the condemnation of Adam, and will die and return to dust as Adam was told he would.

It’s a simple matter of recognizing that all people are condemned to die, and as such they are the walking dead.

 

[LeviR]

From the idea that people are born into the world “spiritually dead” rather than under the death sentence hand down to Adam, comes the idea that a person who is “spiritually dead” cannot make himself to be spiritually alive.

However, if we consider that all are dead because under a death sentence, then it becomes vital for the person to believe the gospel if he wishes to live.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Hawkman,

I don't see it as a sentence at all , I see it as God telling Adam the facts since Adam was now separated from the Tree of Life in the garden , no curse of death just the fact that death was inevitable . The ground was cursed , that is a fact .

I consider that it was a sentence. Before his sin he had the possibility of a continuance of life, and after probation could be offered of the tree of life and live for ever. I consider the following speaks of death being the result of Adam's sin.
Romans 5:12 (KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[LeviR]

Greetings again Hawkman,

I consider that it was a sentence. Before his sin he had the possibility of a continuance of life, and after probation could be offered of the tree of life and live for ever. I consider the following speaks of death being the result of Adam's sin.
Romans 5:12 (KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Kind regards
Trevor

It is said Adam was kept from the tree of life lest he eat of it and live forever.

After Adam had sinned, he was forbidden to freely eat of the tree. It would come at a price.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Is this speaking of spiritual death, or physical death, or both together, or together, with one resulting from the other?

Physical death, which all will have to experience, even Lord Jesus experienced it. Spiritual death or not depends on your relationship with God through Jesus. All whose names are written on the Book of Life will live forever, those whose names are not will die a second death.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Where do you read "the penalty for sin is death" ?

Rom. 6:23

 

[Whatever]

Where do you read "the penalty for sin is death" ?

Carry_Your_Name said
Rom. 6:23

Here is another one.
Ezekiel 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Greetings Hopeful 2, Hawkman and Dave...,

Perhaps the exact statement is a deduction, but this could be established from a number of passages. I consider the following is similar or equivalent.
Romans 6:23 (KJV): For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

OK, that makes more sense.
Death is the result of sin.
But as even sinless babies can die, the wage must be referring to the second death.

I suggest before considering any other aspect, the above teaches that as a result of Adam's sin he was sentenced to return to the dust, and this is speaking about his physical death, his new position of mortality. All of Adam's descendants share in Adam's mortality. All of the above clearly teaches that the doctrine of immortal souls is erroneous.

Souls and bodies are quite different things.
Bodies fade to dust, but souls remain forever.

 

[Dave...]

One of the translations may have used 'penalty' instead of wages. I really don't remember where I got 'penalty' from. Maybe a sermon somewhere. I think it's still accurate though.

Here's how I see it.

The sin of Adam caused a separation from a Holy God. Until that sin is atoned for, that person cannot be in the presence of God without Jesus meeting God's justice on our behalf first. This is why the OT saints had to wait for the cross. The separation is judicial.

Since God alone is good and source of all that is good, that left mankind, under Adams headship, to be separated from God, and unable to do anything but sin. The result of that sin is physical death. That physical death is handed down physically from Adam on down. So spiritual death is instant for Adam and Eve, being separate from God, and everyone who is born under Adam, with that separation, from that point forward is born spiritually dead because of it. The physical part, is the result of sin, which is the result of the separation from God, is not the nature, but the affects of that nature.

The reason for this question came about from the thread called "The age of accountability". My thoughts are that A child born with those physical effects handed down to him can physically die, even before he is capable of contributing to it (state of innocence). But the physical part is not the nature. You don't need to answer that can of worms, but that's the motive behind the question.

Is the word 'death' in this context just a blanket word for spiritual and physical? Does it mean spiritual, but assume the physical? Without getting to the bottom of this, these types of discussions will always have people talking about two or three different things when using the term 'death'. It muddies the waters too much for a discussion to be as productive as it could be. By itself, it seemed worth exploring. In this context, what does "death" mean?

Dave

 

[hawkman]

Until that sin is atoned for, that person cannot be in the presence of God without Jesus meeting God's justice on our behalf first. This is why the OT saints had to wait for the cross.

Abraham ?
Moses ?
What are you talking about ?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Hopeful 2,

But as even sinless babies can die, the wage must be referring to the second death.

No, the sentence upon Adam was death and this is explained as returning to the dust.

Souls and bodies are quite different things.
Bodies fade to dust, but souls remain forever.

Genesis 3:19-24 clearly teach that man is mortal and that there are no immortal souls. God did not want immortal sinners. Immortality is a gift to the faithful.
Romans 6:23 (KJV): For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Whatever]

But as even sinless babies can die, the wage must be referring to the second death

Babies - offspring of Adam have inherited his guilt from the first sin.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Verse 12 - as by one man—Adam.
sin—considered here in its guilt, criminality, penal desert.
entered into the world, and death by sin—as the penalty of sin.
and so death passed upon all men, for that "all sinned," that is, in that one man's first sin.
Thus death reaches every individual of the human family, as the penalty due to himself.

Verses 13-14 So death, this huge abyss separating us from God, dominated the landscape from Adam to Moses. Even those who didn’t sin precisely as Adam did by disobeying a specific command of God still had to experience this termination of life, this separation from God. But Adam, who got us into this, also points ahead to the One who will get us out of it.

The same way Adam infected all his posterity with guilt and death
Jesus (the second Adam) wins salvation and pardon for all those who are his.

If you want to reject the imputation of Adam's sin to his posterity
then you also have to reject the imputation of Jesus' righteousness to His people.

Everybody dies, gets sick, and all the other bad stuff because we are in Adam. He is our representative.
Everybody (in Christ) has His righteousness imputed to them and they are declared not guilty.
But as long as we remain in these flesh an blood bodies, we still suffer the effects of the fall.

Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Dave...]

Abraham ?
Moses ?
What are you talking about ?

D

Bible Study Thread 'WHAT HAPPENED IN ACTS?'

Oct 26, 2024

OT SAINTS SAVED BY FAITH

First, to grasp what was happening in Acts, you must understand that the OT saints were also saved by faith. They put their faith in God that He would provide a Savior. God had passed over their sins until Christ died on the cross.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more...

• Dave...
• Replies: 3
• Forum: Bible Studies

 

[Hopeful 2]

Greetings again Hopeful 2,
No, the sentence upon Adam was death and this is explained as returning to the dust.

You are right, but I don't think Rom 6:23 is about Adam, or his death.

Genesis 3:19-24 clearly teach that man is mortal and that there are no immortal souls. God did not want immortal sinners. Immortality is a gift to the faithful.
Romans 6:23 (KJV): For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Kind regards
Trevor

I differentiate between men and their souls.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Babies - offspring of Adam have inherited his guilt from the first sin.

That is not biblical.
It is written..."The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." (Ezek 18:20)

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Verse 12 - as by one man—Adam.
sin—considered here in its guilt, criminality, penal desert.
entered into the world, and death by sin—as the penalty of sin.
and so death passed upon all men, for that "all sinned," that is, in that one man's first sin.
Thus death reaches every individual of the human family, as the penalty due to himself.

Why then, does it mention those who have not sinned ? (Rom 5:14)

Verses 13-14 So death, this huge abyss separating us from God, dominated the landscape from Adam to Moses. Even those who didn’t sin precisely as Adam did by disobeying a specific command of God still had to experience this termination of life, this separation from God. But Adam, who got us into this, also points ahead to the One who will get us out of it.

The same way Adam infected all his posterity with guilt and death
Jesus (the second Adam) wins salvation and pardon for all those who are his.

If you want to reject the imputation of Adam's sin to his posterity
then you also have to reject the imputation of Jesus' righteousness to His people.

Everybody dies, gets sick, and all the other bad stuff because we are in Adam. He is our representative.
Everybody (in Christ) has His righteousness imputed to them and they are declared not guilty.
But as long as we remain in these flesh an blood bodies, we still suffer the effects of the fall.

Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.