Penalty for sin is death

[Whatever]

It is written..."The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." (Ezek 18:20)

You are misunderstanding this passage. A few verses earlier it says:
Eze 18:2 "What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying: 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge'? 3 "As I live," says the Lord GOD, "you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

The people were saying this because of direct sayings in the Scriptures.
2 Kings 24:2 And the LORD sent against him raiding bands of Chaldeans, bands of Syrians, bands of Moabites, and bands of the people of Ammon; He sent them against Judah to destroy it, according to the word of the LORD which He had spoken by His servants the prophets.
24:3 Surely at the commandment of the LORD this came upon Judah, to remove them from His sight because of the sins of Manasseh, according to all that he had done,

They understood that it was saying that they were being raided by the Chaldeans because of the sins of Manasseh.

It says the same thing in Jeremiah:
Jer 15:4 I will hand them over to trouble, to all kingdoms of the earth, because of Manasseh the son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, for what he did in Jerusalem.

Same thing in Lamentations:
Lam 5:7 Our fathers sinned and are no more, But we bear their iniquities.

That is why they came up with the saying: 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge'

In Ezekiel 18, God is telling them that if they had repented and changed, it would not have happened. Yes, this builds up and God's anger gives people time to repent, and if they had repented, then what Manasseh had done wouldn't effect them.

But this is totally different than God making one man (Adam) and giving him the office of head of the human race and making a covenant with him and only one law (don't eat from this one tree) and when Adam did eat from it, he broke the covenant for himself and all his posterity.

Like I said, if you reject this, you also reject the fact that Jesus acted on behalf of His people (fulfill the law and pay the penalty of death) and we are declared non-guilty based on what He did.

Why then, does it mention those who have not sinned ? (Rom 5:14)

It doesn't say they have not sinned. It says: who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam

Here is a clearer translation:
Romans 5:13-14
New Living Translation
13 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break. 14 Still, everyone died—from the time of Adam to the time of Moses—even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did.

Everything God says is sin now, was still a sin back then, even though God had not specifically spelled it out. They lied and and a thousand other things we know are sin, but at that time there was no specific command not to do it.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You are misunderstanding this passage. A few verses earlier it says:
Eze 18:2 "What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying: 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge'? 3 "As I live," says the Lord GOD, "you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

It means that it is no longer applicable.
Men do not inherit Adam's sin.

 

[Dave...]

Everything God says is sin now, was still a sin back then, even though God had not specifically spelled it out. They lied and and a thousand other things we know are sin, but at that time there was no specific command not to do it.

Hey Whatever. Maybe this passage helps.

Romans 2:14-15 "for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)"

Does this have any weight in considering the accountability of man before the Law was given by Moses from God?

Dave

 

[Whatever]

Romans 2:14-15 "for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)"

Does this have any weight in considering the accountability of man before the Law was given by Moses from God?

Verse 12 does.

Rom 2:12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

Paul goes on:
Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
Rom 3:10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

So, even Australian Aborigines or American Indians or anybody else, before they encountered Jews or Christians, still were sinners even though they didn't have the 10 commandments. They probably lied, committed adultery or fornication, and probably most of all, worshiped false gods.

1Co 10:20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.

Psalm 96:5 For all the gods of the peoples are idols, But the LORD made the heavens.

So to sum it up For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law. I have trouble seeing all the adults perishing but the kids getting a pass.

I think what Paul is saying is that all these people without the law still know what is wrong and right. I think all old nations honored marriage, telling the truth and not stealing and had laws to punish these and other things.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

That is what Paul was getting at by "there is none righteous." I looked up the word righteous in Strongs:
G1342 - dikaios - From G1349; equitable (in character or act); by implication innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): - just, meet, right (-eous).

 

[Whatever]

It means that it is no longer applicable.
Men do not inherit Adam's sin.

The whole human race is seen as I whole. Adam was our representative.
Jesus is the representative of those who believe.

If men do not inherit Adam's sin, then Christians do not inherit Jesus' righteousness.

 

[live2blive]

Penalty for sin is death

Is this speaking of spiritual death, or physical death, or both together, or together, with one resulting from the other? I'm asking because when speaking of the sin nature, I always thought that it was the nature, thus spiritual. And the physical, while not the nature, is the result of that sin, which is the result of that nature.

What does thins all mean? I'm trying to understand how some believe that the physical is part is the sin nature. I don't see it.

Dave

This is speaking about spiritual death. When Adam sinned, he died instantaneously in his conscience. His mind became carnal (condemned). Some people think that only physical is real, but spiritual is abstract and not important. However, for our Creator it is just the opposite.

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (Romans 8:6).

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. (2 Corinthians 4:18).

 

[Dave...]

So to sum it up For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law. I have trouble seeing all the adults perishing but the kids getting a pass.

So, even Australian Aborigines or American Indians or anybody else, before they encountered Jews or Christians, still were sinners even though they didn't have the 10 commandments. They probably lied, committed adultery or fornication, and probably most of all, worshiped false gods.

I think what Paul is saying is that all these people without the law still know what is wrong and right. I think all old nations honored marriage, telling the truth and not stealing and had laws to punish these and other things.

I agree with everything you wrote, except the latter part of your quote that I saved from above.

The reason I left the first part in was that I heard a point made by Macarthur with regards to the innocence of children in that same context. The fact that there are many areas that have never heard the Gospel, but still heaven will be made of every people, from every nation, tribe, language, etc.. One way to account for that is innocent children who die from those places go to heaven. Just a thought.

Dave

 

[Hopeful 2]

The whole human race is seen as I whole. Adam was our representative.
Jesus is the representative of those who believe.

If men do not inherit Adam's sin, then Christians do not inherit Jesus' righteousness.

We don't inherit Jesus' righteousness. (Where did you get that idea ?)
By faith, we turn from sin and have the old man killed at it's "immersion" into Christ; and into His death, burial, and resurrection.
We are then reborn of God's seed.
With the gift of the Holy Ghost and the new creature's divine nature, we are righteous.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hey Whatever. Maybe this passage helps.

Romans 2:14-15 "for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)"

Does this have any weight in considering the accountability of man before the Law was given by Moses from God?

Dave

I think it points out the importance of men's consciences, in the judgement to come on the last day.

 

[Whatever]

We don't inherit Jesus' righteousness. (Where did you get that idea ?)

That has been the faith of the Protestant Church since the Reformation.

Question 33. What is justification?
Answer. Justification is an act of God’s free grace, wherein he pardoneth all our sins, and accepteth us as righteous in his sight, only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and received by faith alone.
"Justification is that step in salvation in which God declares the believer righteous. Protestant theology has emphasized that this includes the imputation of Christ's righteousness (crediting it to the believer's "account"). Imputed righteousness therefore means that upon repentance and belief in Christ,individuals are forensically declared righteous. This righteousness is not the believer's own, rather it is Christ's own righteousness 'imputed' to the believer.

but still heaven will be made of every people, from every nation, tribe, language, etc.. One way to account for that is innocent children who die from those places go to heaven. Just a thought.

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation

Notice these people say they were redeemed by the blood of Christ. Innocent people do not need to be redeemed. It has been over 2,000 years since Christ left. There may be many more years before He comes back. There is plenty of time to redeem people from all over the world. I'm not sure that it means that there will be a representative of every tribe in the world.

There are 574 federally recognized Indian tribes in the United States. A lot of them are probably related, but got separated as time went by and called themselves by different names. I don't think there has to be a few from every one of the 574 tribes there for what Revelation says to be true.

 

[Whatever]

I think it points out the importance of men's consciences, in the judgement to come on the last day.

That's what a lot of liberal District attorneys and judges think. So they let murders off because of some stupid thing that happened to the person when he was 10 years old.

Let's look at the Romans passage from a different version:
Romans 2:14-15
Good News Translation
14 The Gentiles do not have the Law; but whenever they do by instinct what the Law commands, they are their own law, even though they do not have the Law. 15 Their conduct shows that what the Law commands is written in their hearts. Their consciences also show that this is true, since their thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them.

All this is saying that pagans have God's idea of what is right or wrong in the hearts. Their conscience sometimes tells them they did something wrong and sometimes they feel good about doing something good. "they are their own law" means that they set up their society by these laws they feel are right and wrong and enforce them with police, courts and so forth.

But remember what James says:
James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
None of these Pagan people always did what was good 100% of the time. They fell short, just like the Jews who had so much more advantage.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight

Once a lady in a Sunday School class who was in her 80's and claimed to have read the Bible every day, said about these Pagans who have never heard the gospel; "They will be saved by living up to what light they had." She is talking about salvation by works (living up to X).
I never said anything, but was saddened that a person could read the Bible all her life and come up with such a un-biblical idea. This was in a Church that hates all Creeds or Confessions as works of men.

It seems that most people read the Bible with their emotions (God is good and must save everybody, or at least try) and hard truths just seem to go in one ear and out the other.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Penalty for sin is death

Is this speaking of spiritual death, or physical death, or both together, or together, with one resulting from the other? I'm asking because when speaking of the sin nature, I always thought that it was the nature, thus spiritual. And the physical, while not the nature, is the result of that sin, which is the result of that nature.

What does thins all mean? I'm trying to understand how some believe that the physical is part is the sin nature. I don't see it.

Dave

Spiritual Death.
There was a time when all of us did not exist, but from here on there will never be a time when we don't exist .

 

[Whatever]

The Bible doesn’t mention anything about “spiritual death”. It is an idea of man who brings it into scripture.

One of their arguments is that God told Adam he would die on the day he ate of the fruit. And simce Adam didn’t die that day, it is assumed he died spiritually.

I've heard that it means "dying you shall surely die." In other words, in eating the fruit, Adam and Eve became mortal. They started to age, grow old. Their eyesight would go bad, their teeth would start to decay. They would get sick and so forth.

God told Adam:
Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.

This means that Adam would live, but it would be toil. Strongs says the word means = worrisomeness, that is, labor or pain: - sorrow, toil.

Gen 5:5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.

I would assume that since God made Adam, God made him perfect - with no genetic mistakes like we have. That is probably why it took so long for him to die. I have heard that we each average something like 4 or so genetic mistakes from our parents. So after thousands of years, imagine how many genetic mistakes there now are in each person compared from the beginning.

 

[Whatever]

There was a time when all of us did not exist, but from here on there will never be a time when we don't exist .

Paul talks about the physical and the spiritual.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, "THE FIRST MAN ADAM BECAME A LIVING BEING." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

First comes the natural (flesh) body and then the Spiritual body. It sounds like we don't get spiritual bodies until the resurrection.

In verses 42 and 43 when it talks about the body being sown in corruption and weakness it is talking about how we are when we are buried. After this it is raised in glory and power.

"And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man" This is talking about those born again, not everybody. The wicked dead are raised somehow, but I can't see them bearing the image of Jesus.

Paul does talk about body, soul and spirit.
1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews talks about a division between soul and spirit.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit . . . .

 

[reddogs]

Penalty for sin is death

Is this speaking of spiritual death, or physical death, or both together, or together, with one resulting from the other? I'm asking because when speaking of the sin nature, I always thought that it was the nature, thus spiritual. And the physical, while not the nature, is the result of that sin, which is the result of that nature.

What does thins all mean? I'm trying to understand how some believe that the physical is part is the sin nature. I don't see it.

Dave

If your wife commits adultery, is that a 'physical' or 'spiritual' sin......?

 

[follower]

If your wife commits adultery, is that a 'physical' or 'spiritual' sin......?

It would be a carnal sin.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Our idea of children as innocent is rather modern. The puritans often viewed children as especially sinful and untamed. I believe that scripture indicates that Adam fell and so did all of humanity. Jesus saves but only His sheep .

 

[Hopeful 2]

That has been the faith of the Protestant Church since the Reformation.

Question 33. What is justification?
Answer. Justification is an act of God’s free grace, wherein he pardoneth all our sins, and accepteth us as righteous in his sight, only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and received by faith alone.
"Justification is that step in salvation in which God declares the believer righteous. Protestant theology has emphasized that this includes the imputation of Christ's righteousness (crediting it to the believer's "account"). Imputed righteousness therefore means that upon repentance and belief in Christ, individuals are forensically declared righteous. This righteousness is not the believer's own, rather it is Christ's own righteousness 'imputed' to the believer.

I don't see any "inheriting" in that.

 

[Hopeful 2]

That's what a lot of liberal District attorneys and judges think. So they let murders off because of some stupid thing that happened to the person when he was 10 years old.

I don't see how you came to that conclusion.
Men will be judged by their consciences on the last day.
Happenstance can't change a conscience of right and wrong.

Let's look at the Romans passage from a different version:
Romans 2:14-15
Good News Translation
14 The Gentiles do not have the Law; but whenever they do by instinct what the Law commands, they are their own law, even though they do not have the Law. 15 Their conduct shows that what the Law commands is written in their hearts. Their consciences also show that this is true, since their thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them.

All this is saying that pagans have God's idea of what is right or wrong in the hearts. Their conscience sometimes tells them they did something wrong and sometimes they feel good about doing something good. "they are their own law" means that they set up their society by these laws they feel are right and wrong and enforce them with police, courts and so forth.

I agree.

But remember what James says:
James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
None of these Pagan people always did what was good 100% of the time. They fell short, just like the Jews who had so much more advantage.

Those pagan people had no law to break, so if/when they offended their own conscience, it was a sin.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight

It is probable that no man living by just his conscience will be justified either.
The Law certainly couldn't make a man perfect.
Thank God we are past the Law for righteousness now.

Once a lady in a Sunday School class who was in her 80's and claimed to have read the Bible every day, said about these Pagans who have never heard the gospel; "They will be saved by living up to what light they had." She is talking about salvation by works (living up to X).
I never said anything, but was saddened that a person could read the Bible all her life and come up with such a un-biblical idea. This was in a Church that hates all Creeds or Confessions as works of men.

If a man can live with a clean conscience all his life, for what will he be condemned ?

It seems that most people read the Bible with their emotions (God is good and must save everybody, or at least try) and hard truths just seem to go in one ear and out the other.

Is the ability to live with complete obedience to God a hard truth to you ?

 

[Tenchi]

Penalty for sin is death

Is this speaking of spiritual death, or physical death, or both together, or together, with one resulting from the other? I'm asking because when speaking of the sin nature, I always thought that it was the nature, thus spiritual. And the physical, while not the nature, is the result of that sin, which is the result of that nature.

What does thins all mean? I'm trying to understand how some believe that the physical is part is the sin nature. I don't see it.

Dave

The "wages" of sin is death (Romans 6:23). "Sin, when it is finished, brings forth death" (James 4:16). Before our second birth, we were all of us "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1-3). Does "death" in these instances primarily mean "physical death"? No - though, physical death is one of the eventual results of the "death" referred to in these verses.

Does "death" mean "spiritual death"? Yes, I think so. When Adam sinned in Eden, he did not die physically. Instead, he was separated from God, spiritually and relationally, his ejection from Eden and his eventual physical death an overt demonstration of this fact. When, at the Final Judgment, God judges the unrepentant wicked with eternal hell, He will separate them from Himself forever, but He does not eradicate them. When Paul "died daily," he did not physically expire, but separated himself from the control of his carnal, self-centered desires, submitting to God's will and way, instead. It is, first and foremost, in this separation sense that I understand the term "death" in the verses above.

Our separation from God when we sin as born-again children of God is not the dissolution of our adoption into His family, but the dissolution of our fellowship with our heavenly Father. Like the Prodigal Son, who was always his father's son no matter how he behaved, his wandering halted his fellowship with his father. This is the first "death" we always immediately suffer when we sin as children of God. From the absence of fellowship with God, however, results a series of other "deaths": Death of peace, of joy, of love, of faith, of holiness, of good relationships with others, etc.