Penalty for sin is death

[Whatever]

Those pagan people had no law to break, so if/when they offended their own conscience, it was a sin.

So in a tribe of cannibals who killed and ate the people from the tribe down the way did it with a clear conscience they were not sinning?

If a man can live with a clean conscience all his life, for what will he be condemned ?

For everything!
Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave,

This was in the time of Abraham, 400 or so years before Moses gave the law. Yet God says Sodom and Gomorrah's sin if very grave. Then God wipes them out with fire and brimstone.

Is the ability to live with complete obedience to God a hard truth to you ?

It is not a truth at all. It is a fiction of people who don't put together all Scripture and make their theology on a few passages.

Gen 20:1 And Abraham journeyed from there to the South, and dwelt between Kadesh and Shur, and stayed in Gerar. 2 Now Abraham said of Sarah his wife, "She is my sister." And Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, "Indeed you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man's wife."

Again, in the time of Abraham hundreds of years before Moses, God condemns Abimelech and threatens him with death for taking another man's wife.
Abimelech did it with a clear conscience by telling God that Abraham lied to him by saying she was his sister.

 

[Whatever]

I don't see any "inheriting" in that.

Ephesians_1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Speaking of the Holy Spirit:
Ephesians_1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

There are a bunch more.

 

[Whatever]

If your wife commits adultery, is that a 'physical' or 'spiritual' sin......?

It seems to be both.

If your wife commits adultery, is that a 'physical' or 'spiritual' sin......?

It would depend upon what your wife is. Christian or not.

1Co 6:18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.

This one is hard to understand. In earlier verses Paul says: "Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?"
So when Paul says "sin outside the body" I think he is talking about outside the body of Christ.

It seems like it is a physical/carnal sin, but has spiritual consequences.

 

[Dave...]

If your wife commits adultery, is that a 'physical' or 'spiritual' sin......?

In result, both. One in the same, right?

I'm reminded of something by your point here that has nothing to do with original sin.

In the TV show Survivor, people often use the excuse that it's just a game to justify their lying, etc. I think to myself, if they cheated on their wife and went home and told their wife, 'honey, I was just playing the game', would it be any less hurtful for her to hear?

 

[Hopeful 2]

So in a tribe of cannibals who killed and ate the people from the tribe down the way did it with a clear conscience they were not sinning?

Not knowing what they thought, I can't say.
If they thought killing others was wrong, they were wrong too.

For everything!
Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave,

Don't you think the Sodomites knew their actions were not approved by God ?
I am pretty sure they knew how far from God they were.

This was in the time of Abraham, 400 or so years before Moses gave the law. Yet God says Sodom and Gomorrah's sin if very grave. Then God wipes them out with fire and brimstone.

Yup.
They could not have had a clear conscience on the matter.

It is not a truth at all. It is a fiction of people who don't put together all Scripture and make their theology on a few passages.

What about Enoch ?
And Elijah ?

Gen 20:1 And Abraham journeyed from there to the South, and dwelt between Kadesh and Shur, and stayed in Gerar. 2 Now Abraham said of Sarah his wife, "She is my sister." And Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, "Indeed you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man's wife."
Again, in the time of Abraham hundreds of years before Moses, God condemns Abimelech and threatens him with death for taking another man's wife.
Abimelech did it with a clear conscience by telling God that Abraham lied to him by saying she was his sister.

Yes he did, and did indeed have a clear conscience, and was saved by God.
You are making my argument for me.

Aren't you glad we can live today with a clean conscience before God ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Ephesians_1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Speaking of the Holy Spirit:
Ephesians_1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

There are a bunch more.

The inheritance in those verses has nothing to do with the righteousness of Christ.
Those verses are about eternal life.
We are already righteous, before that.

 

[Whatever]

The inheritance in those verses has nothing to do with the righteousness of Christ.
Those verses are about eternal life.
We are already righteous, before that.

It is all one package.

1Co 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption

 

[Whatever]

Don't you think the Sodomites knew their actions were not approved by God ?
I am pretty sure they knew how far from God they were.

But according to how you interpret Paul, how did these guys know they fell far from God? There was no law to tell them.

Aren't you glad we can live today with a clean conscience before God ?

I don't have a clear conscience before God. I know I have sinned and continue to sin.

 

[Whatever]

In the TV show Survivor, people often use the excuse that it's just a game to justify their lying, etc.

That's why I think these kinds of shows are actually evil.

 

[Hopeful 2]

It is all one package.

1Co 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption

It is one package, but the redemption won't be manifested until the day of judgement.
We have the righteousness and sanctification already.

 

[Hopeful 2]

But according to how you interpret Paul, how did these guys know they fell far from God? There was no law to tell them.

They had a conscience, like every other person on earth.

I don't have a clear conscience before God. I know I have sinned and continue to sin.

You can change that sorry state with a true, real, repentance from sin.
God will be there to help you when you are ready.
It is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)

 

[Whatever]

They had a conscience, like every other person on earth.

You don't understand what the Bible says about the condition of man in his natural state.

Gen 8:21 . . . ."I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Jer 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

From Easton's Bible Dictionary (just part of it)
The heart is also the seat of the conscience (Rom 2:15). It is naturally wicked (Gen 8:21), and hence it contaminates the whole life and character (Mat 12:34; 15:18; Ecc 8:11; Psa 73:7). Hence the heart must be changed, regenerated (Eze 36:26; 11:19; Psa 51:10-14), before a man can willingly obey God.

 

[locust]

This is speaking about spiritual death. When Adam sinned, he died instantaneously in his conscience. His mind became carnal (condemned). Some people think that only physical is real, but spiritual is abstract and not important. However, for our Creator it is just the opposite.

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (Romans 8:6).

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. (2 Corinthians 4:18).

what's the penalty for spiritual death? could it be ..................death?

 

[Hopeful 2]

You don't understand what the Bible says about the condition of man in his natural state.

Gen 8:21 . . . ."I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Jer 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

From Easton's Bible Dictionary (just part of it)
The heart is also the seat of the conscience (Rom 2:15). It is naturally wicked (Gen 8:21), and hence it contaminates the whole life and character (Mat 12:34; 15:18; Ecc 8:11; Psa 73:7). Hence the heart must be changed, regenerated (Eze 36:26; 11:19; Psa 51:10-14), before a man can willingly obey God.

Was every thought of Enoch evil ?
How about Elijah's ?
John the Baptist's?
Noah ?
You are using a rather wide brush.

 

[Whatever]

Was every thought of Enoch evil ?
How about Elijah's ?
John the Baptist's?
Noah ?
You are using a rather wide brush.

I just quoted Scripture. God's Spirit did work in the OT on some people.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Is the word 'death' in this context just a blanket word for spiritual and physical? Does it mean spiritual, but assume the physical? Without getting to the bottom of this, these types of discussions will always have people talking about two or three different things when using the term 'death'. It muddies the waters too much for a discussion to be as productive as it could be. By itself, it seemed worth exploring. In this context, what does "death" mean?

Death (separation)

Physical death. Physical death is the separation of soul and body. It is represented in the Scriptures as a part of the penalty of sin.

Spiritual death. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God. The penalty proclaimed in Eden which has fallen upon the race is primarily this death of the soul (Genesis 2:17; Romans 5:21; Ephesians 2:1,5). By it man lost the presence and favor of God as well as the knowledge of and desire for God. Because of this, he needs to be made alive from death (Luke 15:32; John 5:24; 8:51; Ephesians 2:5)

Eternal death. Eternal death is simply the culmination and completion of spiritual death. It is the eternal separation of the soul from God, together with the accompanying remorse and outward punishment (Matthew 10:28; 25:41; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 10:31; Revelation14:11). This matter is examined more fully in our study of future things. Henry Thiessen – Lectures in Systematic Theology

The term "you are dead to me" meaning you we have no part in my life. (separation)

 

[Hopeful 2]

I just quoted Scripture. God's Spirit did work in the OT on some people.

I am glad you realize that.
Paul's generalities in Rom 3, were his effort to show the Jews that even with the Law, they were just as bad off as any Gentile.
His intent was to make the Jews abandon their Law based arrogance and turn to God.

 

[Whatever]

Paul's generalities in Rom 3, were his effort to show the Jews that even with the Law, they were just as bad off as any Gentile.
His intent was to make the Jews abandon their Law based arrogance and turn to God.

They weren't generalities. He was quoting from the OT.

Psalm 14:2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. 3 They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.

Above, it is not just talking about Jews or Israel, but "the children of men."
More OT:

Gen 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.
Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

Pro 28:26 He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.

The one from Proverbs is interesting. The "heart" in both testaments is talking about the inner person. The "heart" may be the seat of conscience and moral character. The desires, the affections, the perceptions, the thoughts, the understanding, the reasoning powers, the imagination, conscience, the intentions, purpose, the will.

You said the people who never heard the law relied on their conscience. But Proverbs says a person who does that is a fool.

 

[Hopeful 2]

They weren't generalities. He was quoting from the OT.

Sure he was, but what was relevant in the past was no longer relevant.
Jesus changed all those verses to remembrances when He lived a perfectly sinless life.
We have been enabled to follow His example.

Psalm 14:2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. 3 They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.
Above, it is not just talking about Jews or Israel, but "the children of men."
More OT:
Gen 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.
Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

Pro 28:26 He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.

Those were all true, (excluding Enoch, Elijah, and a few others who did seek the Lord), until John the Baptist and Jesus came along.
Jesus made all those verses passe.

The one from Proverbs is interesting. The "heart" in both testaments is talking about the inner person. The "heart" may be the seat of conscience and moral character. The desires, the affections, the perceptions, the thoughts, the understanding, the reasoning powers, the imagination, conscience, the intentions, purpose, the will.

I agree, for the most part.

You said the people who never heard the law relied on their conscience. But Proverbs says a person who does that is a fool.

If a woman doesn't know that going topless is a sin, will not be charged with a sin by God.
God has given every man a conscience with which to measure his actions.
I will not be the one to say that nobody's actions are moderated by it.

 

[Beetow]

.
● Rom 6:23a . .The wages of sin is death,

If we can safely assume from the forbidden fruit incident that the wages of sin pertain to
each sin rather than the total accumulation of one's sins; then some folks are really,
really in deep trouble.

For example: the Bible prohibits dishonesty.

● Lev 19:11 . . You shall not deal falsely, neither lie one to another.

Let's say, hypothetically, somebody out there has a total of 50 counts of dishonesty on
the books. How are they supposed to balance the scales of justice having only two
deaths work with? --their natural death, and the second death depicted by Rev 20:11-5.

And seeing as how there is but one resurrection allotted per person (Dan 12:2, John
5:28-29) then they won't be coming back from the second death to die all over again as
many times as needed to settle the account for those 50 violations of Lev 19:11.

The solution to this dilemma is course Christ's crucifixion. His one death is adequate to
satisfy justice for an infinite accumulation of sins.

● Rom 6:23b . . but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
_