Pentacostals

[Free]

sillynikki,

First off, Pentecostalism is not a religion but a denomination of the Christian faith. Secondly, what you are describing sounds much more like Oneness Pentecostalism which is considered by many to be a cult. They add works to salvation and deny the Trinity, both of which are fundamental to Christianity (salvation by grace alone, no works).

They do believe you have to speak in tongues to be saved, but this is not at all the beliefs of Pentecostals in general.

soma-sight,

ONCE AGAIN I REITERATE THAT EVEN IF THERE IS AN OBJECTIVE TRUTH IT IS UNKNOWABLE IN THE HUMAN MIND DUE TO THE MINDS EFFECT ON STRUCTURING IT HUMANLY IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND IT.

Your argument is self-defeating. You are appealing to objective truth in claiming that objective truth does not exist or is unknowable. you seem to know it exists since you are using it.

 

[Henry]

Vicjr no problem I talk to several wiccas and they always use that stuff as a wepon, it really gets old

FREE---- Actually you are right about the oneness group they do add to salvation, and are concidered a cult by many great scollars, I was actually in a church like that once before. I was saved there but God lead me out praise the Lord.

And you are right too that pentocostal is just a denomination of the christian church, and I enjoy going to a pentocostal church every so often.

Great worship and excited preaching, anyways it would be a good thing if you would explain to everyone in more detail the differences.

God Bless you

Henry

 

[Free]

Henry,

I'll post the differences that I can remember off the top of my head, mainly by showing where Oneness has erred.

First of all, Oneness Pentecostalism ("Jesus Only", "United Pentecostal") denies the Trinity. As James R. White states in "The Forgotten Trinity," when a group strays from the Trinity, not only are they not worshipping the God of the Bible, but there comes with that other serious doctrinal changes.

For instance, Mormons and JWs both deny the Trinity as revealed in the Bible and as a result, both add works to salvation and have other strange teachings that are unbiblical. Both are also known for grossly taking Scripture out of context.

Regarding Oneness theology, they also add works to salvation (baptism) and are very legalistic in terms of what people can wear and how they can cut their hair, etc. Again, as soon as a group denies the Trinity, works, legalism and other doctrinal errors are sure to follow.

Oneness Pentecostals believe that one is not saved if they do not speak in tonuges, since they believe tongues are a sign of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (if one does not have the Spirit, one is not saved). "Traditional" Pentecostalism does not believe this at all, but rather the accepted, biblical fact that the Holy Spirit indwells each believer upon salvation which follows Romans 10:9, regardless of whether or not one speaks in tongues.

We have to remember that, as in any denomination, there are variations among Oneness churches to go to extremes in certain doctrines that others do not. For example, some use shame and humiliation in getting members to publicly confess personal sins.

Traditional Pentecostalism adheres to all the same beliefs as most other denominations, the main difference being in believing the gifts of the Spirit never ceased with the Apostles and are for today.

I can get more if you want, just let me know.

 

[Ana'riel]

You didn't offend me! I was just making sure you didn't think I'm just an idiot :wink:

 

[Vic C.]

You didn't offend me! I was just making sure you didn't think I'm just an idiot

LOL-not at all do I think you are an idiot. I have no reason to even think that. All I was trying to do was pass on a little of the knowledge I have gained in the course of my studies. All I know is what God reveals to me. I like it that way...keeps me out of trouble! LOL :wink:

 

[Sower]

Oh, this church is NOT orderly...it's like watching a circus act! People are up dancing around yelling and about 20 people will be "speaking in tongues" at a time. I never once heard anyone interpret it.

sillynikki:

The modern Pentecostal/ charismatic movement is of relatively recent origin. Their teaching on the baptism of the Holy Spirit is false, and their tongues are not the specific foreign languages spoken supernaturally in the Bible.

Disorderliness itself is proof that they are NOT filled with the Holy Spirit, since Paul clearly teaches that God is the God of order and self-control. If you study 1 Corinthians 12-14, you will see that (1) real tongues was the LEAST of the gifts, (2) without an interpreter there should be no tongues speaking (3) women were to remain silent, and (4) Paul was REBUKING the church for their abuse of this gift. Today's Pentecostals have disregarded Paul altogether by violating all these strictures.

 

[Free]

Sower,

Their teaching on the baptism of the Holy Spirit is false, and their tongues are not the specific foreign languages spoken supernaturally in the Bible.

You don't even fully understand tongues, so how can you say the teaching is false?

Disorderliness itself is proof that they are NOT filled with the Holy Spirit,

Again, this shows you are not understanding what is written in those passages. If your statement were true, then the Corinthian Church was not filled with the Holy Spirit either, but since they obviously were (1 Cor 1:5-6), your statement is false. So when Paul states that "God is not a God of disorder, but of peace," he is not saying that because they are being disorderly that they are doing this outside of the Holy Spirit, but that they would discredit God through the lack of order.

1 Cor. 14:26 shows that all had something to contribute, but vss. 27-32 show that not all are to speak so as to have some order in the service. This is also seen in vss. 39-40:

"Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way."

(1) real tongues was the LEAST of the gifts

But still a gift nonetheless.

(2) without an interpreter there should be no tongues speaking

But he does not say that they should not speak in tongues at all. I do agree that this is done all too often in Pentecostal services and I am coming to the persuasion that one should be silent if they wish to speak in tongues, unless it is meant for interpretation.

(3) women were to remain silent

Do women remain silent in your church (SBC maybe?)? This is an erroneous teaching that takes these verses (1 Cor. 14:34-35) out of context. Paul had already acknowledged in 11:5 that women prayed and prophesied in the Church services. Paul is not saying that women are not to speak at all in Church, or are not allowed to prophesy or speak in tongues, but that there is something disorderly about they way they were speaking (perhaps they were having noisy, disruptive discussions about tongues and prophecy and were instead wait until they get home to ask their husbands).

(4) Paul was REBUKING the church for their abuse of this gift.

Notice how the "Love Chapter" is in between two chapters on spiritual gifts? Paul is stressing how important love is and that love must be employed when using these gifts. They were being disorderly, but using the gifts was not, and is not, abusing the gifts.

 

[Free]

Where did everybody go? :

 

[Vic C.]

Who are you looking for? :-?

Question...How does 'Assemblys of God' fit into what is being said here?

 

[Free]

I was wondering where Sower had gone...oh, well.

It's strange how threads just die in this forum. In another forum I frequent debates can rage for weeks with several new posts per day.

I am not sure exactly what Assemblies of God believe. There must be some up in Canada somewhere, but I have only heard of them in the US. Can't help you out with that one.

 

[Ana'riel]

Disorderliness itself is proof that they are NOT filled with the Holy Spirit, since Paul clearly teaches that God is the God of order and self-control.

:o So God does not want people to get super excited over him? *Ironic laugh* Well, I think I can do that, gets easier everyday. :

 

[Henry]

free

what other forums do you know about?


Let me know please.

Henry

 

[Rose of Sharon]

Whats your view on Pentecostal religion?

:B-fly: Sillynikki,

I'am a United Pentecostal. I believe in The Holyghost and speaking in other tongues. And I beleive in water baptism in Jesus name, and I'am oneness.
We have a good time in the Lord when we worship. We are ordererly. God is not the author of confusion. ( I beleive someone mentioned that) It's true.
Also, it depends alot on the pastor. He sets the standards of how the church should act.
It sounds like the pastor in the church you went to did not have a grip on his congregation.
I don't want to accuse him. I don't know him. But a pastor that is in charge would never let someone "crack " their head open in the house of God.
We have good teaching. A holiness standard. And good worship. and the pastor is in charge under God.

I appreciate good , honest discussion.

 

[Henry]

HI Rose

I was in a oneness church when I was saved batised in JEsus name and all that, even went to trinititarian churches to "witness" to them, after all they are lead astray, since they teach the trinity and batise in the "titles" Right?

And oh yea I am a Kansan too. Junction City actually, but moved several years ago to the south west.

Anyways I had a problem with the oneness church, I was really having issue with the thikng that all the trinitarians who batised in the titles as they say, were not really saved. The bible says a few things on that, that they would show fruits and love, they would call JEsus Lord, and even more that no one can call JEsus lest the Holy Spirit causes him too. These people seemed to love JEsus more then the oneness folks I knew who were really more absorbed intheir own so called holiness

And I was getting very concerned in the 'bible study' notice the quotations because the study was more of an indoctrination then anything else. Every study had the same qualities, they focused on particular verses, ignored other verse all together (usually said the cathiolics changed it) and other verses that did not agree with what they taught they gave very metophorical and unsatifactory explainatoins of what they mean.

To add to that, I was told things that the trinitarian churched susposedly taught that i knew for fact was not true, especially in the matter of JEsus being God, they taught that the trintity denyed that Jesus was God, that is just not true. And few other doctrines they would mis-state as to what the trintiatrians taught.

NOw mind you this is not a single congregation problem, it is through out the Oneness movement, every site I vivsit makes the very same acuasaltoins and charges ,and the same weak bible studies.

As soon as I realized that their docrtine was not biblical at all, and they were doing the bible the same things mormons, Jahova witnesses and the like do, that is use certain verses, ignore other and blame someone for chaning the rest, while they some how are blessed to be given the corrections. I left and fast too, the mens pastor told me my salvatiion was lost, you know that oneness theology says that if you are not submisive to your leaders you loose salvatoin.

Anyways if you are interested in testing the doctrines, I am happy to lead you to a site that has some great information. We are told in the bible to test all things, even if an angel comes to tells us, we are to test everything we hear.

So anyways let me know, and mind you I say this in love but I am positive if you are open and willing to hear, you will see that oneness theology is not only in error it is very dangerous and spritually abusive, said in love dear, I am not attacking you. (smile)

 

[Rose of Sharon]

To Henry

:B-fly:

Hi there Henry,

I cannot believe you left Bro.and Sis. Westberg and that wonderful church.
I'm astonished.
Did you know that Bro.Westberg passed away a couple years ago?
Well, I tend to disagree ( respectfully) about your stance on oneness.
When my pastor teaches, he teaches all the bible. Not just certain scriptures. Like the Mormons or JW's. we are not like them at all.
There is total difference there in the teachings of the doctrine.
Be careful of the delusions that Satan throws your way to send you in the wrong direction.
I say this with concern for your soul.
What is the web site you are talking of?

God bless. Rose of Sharon

 

[Henry]

Bro.and Sis. Westberg??? I have not idea who these people are. The church I went to seemed to also teach the whole bible, and the moromons will tell you as well they teach the whole bible and then some.

But the truth is they did not teach the bible at all, rather the bible was used as a tool to promote there own doctrines, interpreted irationaly, out of context and methophorically were there is none.

For example the verse taht says we must be born of the water and of the sprit, they say see here are told that we need to be batised as a part of our salvation, well that verse and chapter for that matter have nothing to do with batism, not a single refernce is made, but added by the modolist.

Now in that chapter JEsus does use metaphore, he referes to the spirit as wind, so are we susposed to blow around to be saved, he also compairs him self to a serpant on a staff, that moses lifted in the desert, so are we to think now that he was a snake.

Or how about the verse were peter says be batised each one of you in the name of JEsus for the remission of sins, this is taught to you as the formual for batism, but that is not the way it is written, in the name is a statement aof authority and repentance is attached to remission, through out the NT the person believes than is batised, first faith and salvaton then batism, and the name of JEsus not used everytime, many times we just read the name of the Lord.

But this is much to go through right now, it took me time to get past the false teachings too.

Oh my soul dear is secure in Jesus, I am saved by his work in my place, not of anything that I have done, praise the Lord my salvation is safe and eternal. I did not earn it, and I can not loose it, lest JEsus is a liar.

this is another thing they teach that you can loose your salvation, talk satanic influences, geezzz.

Anyways one site you can go check out is http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-mod ... odhead.htm this is actually a refutation of the so called 60 questions of the Godhead that I used to pass out as a tract, ( I am ashamed I did ) Check it out, then let me know if you want more.

 

[Rose of Sharon]

Henry

:B-fly:

You said you went to a UPC in Junction City, Ks. And thats the only one there. It must have been a different church you attended.
What you are saying does not sound like any Oneness UPC I know.
What is your church now? If you do not mind me asking?

 

[Rose of Sharon]

Henry

:B-fly:
My mistake,
You don't say you went to a UPC, you just said you lived there. : What year? I lived there in 1978-79.

 

[Henry]

No I said I was from Junction City, I went to a modolistic church in Az, which is affiliated with UPCI. Pretty much the same as the UPC.

Anyways, as I said I had to leave because it was not a good church, after all any church that teaches lies can not be good can it?

After leaving I as told I lost my salvaton, that I as now a devil, by a pastor there.

And the guy has heresed me for the last few years, telling me how I was lost again and needed to get back the them so I could be saved agains and all that junk.

I finally had to tell the guy, not to bother me again. Now mind you I have visted a few times, to see certain people, however once your eyes are opened to the truth, lies are so very clear, I could barely sit through that service, what a JOKE.
Anyways check out that site, and let me know when you have I will give you more sites.

 

[Dstny621]

God is not the author of confusion. Things are to be done in an orderly fashion in church. And if someone speaks in tongues there is suppost to be someone there to interpret what is being said or they are to keep silent


There is however a difference between speaking in tongues and a prayer language