Perpetual Forgiveness

[netchaplain]

Does God need to repeatedly forgive His children? What would such a need be, seeing He knows all we desire is to please Him; and this He assures (Phl 2:13). There is allowance for babes in Christ, who may yet have a habitual sin to give up, but He eventually brings all to the same knowledge, understanding and application concerning willful sins. If one does not eventually mature enough in Christ, it manifests yet to be reborn.

The sins of Christians eventually become more in the way of impulse, like wrath, jealousy, envy, selfish- pride, etc. which are sins that are not intentional, “presumptuous” (Num 15:30) or “willingly” (Heb 10:25). These spring up out of the moment and are not planned or intended. When believers sin unwillingly they confess, i.e. admit the wrong, or the Spirit will continue to convict until you confess, because now you belong to God, and He will not let you go your own way anymore. We confess, then thank God for His continued forgiveness.

It’s not that God has to go in and out of forgiveness, but it’s a need-only-once application during the initial confession of our salvation—from there on He will always be “faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1Jn 1:9). Otherwise this would mean He has to keep repeating His cleansing from our sins, which is not necessary; same principle as being forgiven “once for all (Heb 10:10). Let’s not forget that “by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified” (Heb 10:14).

Our sanctification has to do with no longer being part of the “carnal mind,” nor part of the “flesh” (Rom 8:7, 9). God only sees the believer in Him and His Son, never again after the “old man” (flesh).

The Lord’s Prayer was to the Jew under the Law, which was forgiving to be forgiven. Now, it’s always forgive, and love as He loved, which is different from love according to how you love yourself.

We are never out of His forgiveness, any more than we are ever out of His love in Christ!


God be blessed!

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Here is what John said:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Focus on end of the verse, " "All sin." All is an absolute term. And it cannot mean all--as in up till now. God is all knowing. He knows the sin you will commit in your future. Therefore His"all" must include all the sins you will commit.
All sin." If one sin is left out then 1John 1:7 is not true.
I hope this helps. May God bless,
Taz

 

[gordon777]

When we intentionally prevent ourselves from consenting to the wholesome words of Christ, we trust instead in contentions and strife, which means trusting in the flesh and not trusting in the Spirit of God.

Forgiveness is being given repentance to believe in the justification which is in Christ, His Spirit of Jesus Christ, and by denying ungodliness, strife and all that are the works of the flesh denying the truth of the Spirit.


1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[gordon777]

To be cleansed of all sin is to be cleansed of all deception, or we continue to deny Christ in works of evil. ( then no forgiveness was ever sought by us from Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.)


John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

3 John 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

 

[netchaplain]

Hey All,
Here is what John said:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Focus on end of the verse, " "All sin." All is an absolute term. And it cannot mean all--as in up till now. God is all knowing. He knows the sin you will commit in your future. Therefore His"all" must include all the sins you will commit.
All sin." If one sin is left out then 1John 1:7 is not true.
I hope this helps. May God bless,
Taz

Hi, and thanks for your reply! When John wrote that we "cannot sin" it is in reference to desiring after sin, sinning "willfully" (Heb 10:26) or "presumptuously" (Num 15:28, 30). The sins of one reborn are never intentional. What believer would ever want to purposely offend God? The whole point is that the "old man" can no longer cause us to desire to sin (Ro 6:14; 8:9). I believe God left the old man (sin nature) in us to continue to learn from it, by exercising our faith in His forgiveness.

Please give Gill a test-read on 1Jn 3: 1 John 3 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

 

[gordon777]

The 1, first, reason one cannot sin, is because the man of sin is not in them, which is the Spirit that now works in the children of disobedience/sin. ( this is in them at the same time as the Spirit of Christ given for men to be born again of God.)

All then as testified, become damned who believe not the truth, and the lie is told as, when they have pleasure in unrighteousness.



2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 The3ssalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:



Being born again is not of corruptible seed, so again this is the 2. second reason explained why that man cannot sin, as per 1 John 3:9, because of not being born of corruptible seed, which is the man of sin in the children of disobedience, the spirit that sits in the temple of God, man is that temple.

Also testified is the man of God purifies HIs soul unto sincere love for the brothers, in obeying the truth. ( unlike those not born again who obey unrighteousness, wrath and then death, as also testified in Romans 2:8.)


Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Speaking of purifying ourselves unto unfeigned love of the brothers, ( which is being born not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the ever living Word of God, every man that has this hope, purifies himself as even He is pure, ( as pure as obeying the truth of sincere love for the brothers, being born again by the Word of God who lives and abides for ever.)

Tis also is the manifesting of the children of God, ( the spirit of Christ/obedience) from the children of the devil, ( the spirit of disobedience) as whosoever does not do righteousness, which is whenever they do not love their brother, IS NOT OF GOD.



1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[netchaplain]

The 1, first, reason one cannot sin, is because the man of sin is not in them, which is the Spirit that now works in the children of disobedience/sin. ( this is in them at the same time as the Spirit of Christ given for men to be born again of God.)

I like what you said, but there is a significant truth on which we disagree. The sin nature is still in the believer, or he wouldn't be sinning. The entire NT teaches on what we are to do when we sin. Nowhere does it say that the "old man" is dead, because it is restrained on the Cross and "is crucified," i.e. being crucified, but not killed. I believe God did not remove it for the same reason it's there to begin with, so we would know His holiness; and so we can continue to exercise our faith in God's forgiveness!

 

[gordon777]

Everywhere we are told the old man is dead, killed, as we are killed with Christ, which is more than restrained. ( we cannot put off the old/bad, without it being gone, to be able to receive the new, good, and bad old and new, are not in the same place/body.)


2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

 

[gordon777]

We were dead in sins, now we are dead to sin.

Christ died absolutely once to sin for us, we deny Christ if we do not confess/acknowledge/consent, that we are indeed dead to sin in the very same sense as Christ died once unto sin for us to believe in.

It is told below for those who can read, death had no more dominion over Christ and sin then has no more dominion over those who believe in this testimony of Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour, who has given us this grace of His.



Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

 

[netchaplain]

Everywhere we are told the old man is dead, killed, as we are killed with Christ, which is more than restrained. ( we cannot put off the old/bad, without it being gone, to be able to receive the new, good, and bad old and new, are not in the same place/body.)

We wouldn't have to "put of the old man" if it was dead! If it was dead we wouldn't be still sinning. The point is that we no longer sin willfully, but against our will, which answers to Paul writing that "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me" (Ro 7:17, 20). He knew he was now a "captive" and not a willing sinner (Rom 7:23). It's like being a captive instead of a willing subject.

Our freedom from sin is that it can no longer cause us to desire to sin!

 

[gordon777]

We cannot confess the truth, if we deny that we are testified to be exactly as Jesus Christs testimony, to be dead indeed unto sin, the very same as believing that Christ actually died, killed, and rose again FROM THE DEAD.


Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

 

[gordon777]

We wouldn't have to "put of the old man" if it was dead! If it was dead we wouldn't be still sinning. The point is that we no longer sin willfully, but against our will, which answers to Paul writing that "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me" (Ro 7:17, 20). He knew he was now a "captive" and not a willing sinner (Rom 7:23). It's like being a captive instead of a willing subject.

Our freedom from sin is that it can no longer cause us to desire to sin!

The old man is there when we are in sin, it is put off when we love others instead of ourselves.

That is why Paul shows he can do all things, because Christ rising from the dead quickens us to do this with Him.


Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

 

[gordon777]

He reason we have no forgiveness that continues, is because the forgiveness that Christ gives, gives us a good conscience, we cant do evil in a good conscience, only those in an evil conscience, can.


Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

[gordon777]

How on earth can Paul, unable to do what he would, exercise himself to have a good conscience void of offence toward God and man, how can that ever be believed.

 

[netchaplain]

How on earth can Paul, unable to do what he would, exercise himself to have a good conscience void of offence toward God and man, how can that ever be believed.

I like all that your presenting, but the truth that the old man still indwells believers cannot be misunderstood for proper spiritual growth! God guide your understanding.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
There is some good stuff here. Speaking for myself only, I believe the "old man" is still alive within me. What Paul describes in Romans (somewhere in chapter 7--I don't have my Bible next to me) fits me to a tee.

Paul wrote: I do the things I don't want to do; and do not the things I want to do.

I am right there with Paul. There is a conflict between the old and the new. I can subdue it to a degree. At 65, and without any bragging, I am okay at it. But nowhere near perfect.

I believe God has a reason for leaving the "old man" in us. When we sin what are we supposed to do? Confess our sins and try to make things right with both God and our fellow human beings. What are the benefits of confessed sin?
1. Confessing our sin strengthens our relationship with God through obedience to His Word.
2. Trying to make things right increases our witness to others. We do not try and hide it, or make excuses for it. We own it. We make amends even at a personal cost. What would you think of a person who acted this way? Honest, responsible, trustworthy, genuine. They can see God's handiwork in our lives. (That's cool stuff!)
Those are my thoughts. Keep walking everybody. May God bless,
Taz

 

[gordon777]

Some people cannot do what they would, as Romans 7 speaks of, so do not do the good.

That was the whole world, testified and found GUILTY BEFORE GOD, as, not one doing good. ( all were unable to do good)




Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.





Now here are the ways to do good. ( not the evil)

We either believe in a Holy Apostle of God being unable to do the good, the same as the guilty world before God, or we believe in the testimonies of how to do the good, two choices, and one is a good choice, one i san evil one.




Psalm 34:14 Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.

Psalm 37:27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.

Proverbs 13:21 Evil pursueth sinners: but to the righteous good shall be repayed.

Proverbs 14:22 Do they not err that devise evil? but mercy and truth shall be to them that devise good.


Isaiah 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

Amos 5:15 Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the Lord God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.

Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Romans 16:19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

1 Peter 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

3 John 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

 

[gordon777]

As my new threads show, the world worships after the beast, they have no forgiveness as they seek none.

 

[gordon777]

All, is already decided, they repent not, they seek no forgiveness, they are content not worshipping in the Spirit to God, all continue now to worship the beast, with the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience, the children of the flesh, never born after the Spirit.



Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Revelation 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[netchaplain]

Speaking for myself only, I believe the "old man" is still alive within me.

Hi, really like all you said and thanks for your reply! Your right about the dichotomy of natures that Paul reveals. Only Christians have two natures. Jesus has one (holy and deity), and unbelievers have one (the old man or sin nature). God never sees the believers after the flesh or sin nature, because we are no longer "in the flesh," i.e. after the sin nature (Ro 8:9).

Now that you are sanctified from it, He can "work in you to desire to do His good pleasure" (Phl 2:13). This is of course permanent (everything God does in Christ is eternal) for everyone reborn (can't be unreborn, if that's a word).

Paul manifests that we in our new nature do not sin, but only after our old nature, which we are no longer after. This is what Paul means in Ro 7:17, 20. The sins of a Christian is like one "captive" (7:23), it's always against the will, unlike before as a willing subject. I believe God allowed the old man to remain for the same reason it's there in the first place; so that we will be busiest at exercising our faith in His forgiveness (pretty much the same you said)!

God's blessings to the Family!