Philosophical and Theological Problems With Hell

[guibox]

Without even going into plain texts that show that the traditionalist view of hell doesn't hold any water, there are othe arguments to go against such a view. Here are a few.

a. Moral Implications

God is turned into a cruel, sadistic torturer, whether He does the torture or just allows it. This is irreconciable with a God who loves the world so much that He sent His son to die for sinners. God cannot be praised for His goodness when He torments sinners throughout the ages of eternity. Our conscience that God has placed within us revolts at such a concept of eternal torture. John Hick says, “The idea of bodies burning for ever and continuously suffering the intense pain of third-degree burns without either being consumed or losing consciousness is as scientifically fantastic as it is morally revolting...The thought of such a torment being deliberately inflicted by divine decree is totally incompatible with the idea of God as infinite love.â€Â

God says, “My ways are above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts†(Isaiah 55:9,10). If our conscience revolts at the idea of torturing a human alive for any prolonged period of time, how can we attribute an even worse thing to the God who created us and put that conscience in us? Especially when He is far superior in that area than we are? And yet we make Him out to be ten times worse then the worst sinner on this earth.

b. Judicial Implications

God deals in the realm of retributive justice. The punishment fits the crime. God implemented this system for his people on this earth, why would he operate His own system with a far inferior one? It is difficult to imagine what rebellious lifestyle warrants ultimate punishment of everlasting, conscious torment in hell. It is hard to believe that divine justice can be satisfied by inflicting a punishment of eternal torment. There is no positive, reformative or redemptive purpose in this punishment. The Bible says that ultimately, the wages of sin is death. If one sins, one dies. That is the punishment for the rebellion of sin. Some people say, “God is an infinite being, therefore a sin committed against him deserves an infinite punishment.†Yes, punishment: death. Punishing? Forever? That is not fair in the least. When we sentence someone to death, that is their punishment. The electric chair is a means to an end. There is not a continual jolt of electricity. The punishment of the electric chair presupposes death. In eternal torment, God’s justice and mercy are not evident and God is the embodiment of all those things...including love. How does a loving God allowing trillions of years of third degree burns for a mere 70+ years of rebellion on this earth constitute justice in any fashion, never mind God's justice, who's "ways are above our ways and thoughts above our thoughts"?

c. Cosmological Implications

In an eternally burning hell, we have a cosmic dualism. Happiness and pain, goodness and evil would continue to exist forever alongside each other. This is impossible to reconcile with Revelation 21:4 which states that “there will be no more sorrow, or crying for the former things have passed awayâ€Â.

The fact and knowledge of loved ones suffering in hell, and the presence of millions suffering excruciating pain would only serve to destroy the peace and happiness of the new world. The new creation would be flawed from day one. Regardless of their state, sin and sinners still would exist in a “perfect†world. Sin cannot exist in the presence of God. We see that when Christ comes the second time, the wicked are destroyed by the light of his power and glory. It is an automatic thing because sin cannot exist in the presence of God. Yet in Revelation 14:10 says

And he (wicked man) shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb

Obviously then, they would have to cease to exist at some point by this fire. If we are to take this literally, then we must conclude that sinners will continually be living in the presence of God which is a biblical contradiction, never mind a major inconvenience to the righteous! “Where is the Lord?†“He’s in Hell right now watching the sinners burn.â€Â

The purpose of the plan of salvation is ultimately to eradicate the presence of sin and sinners from the world. Christ’s victory of his redemptive mission can only be fulfilled in this task. The pain and "torment" is a natural effect of the fire that is supposed to destroy sin and a sinful world. This is called God's "strange act" because it goes against all He is. However, for a new heaven and a new "start" and to put sinners out of their misery, it is a necessary one.

d. Illogistics and Character Flaw Implications

For hell in its understood form to exist, we must conclude that God created this hell from the beginning of the earth before man existed, after Satan fell from grace. (the bible says that hell is initially for the Satan and the angels). This raises an interesting thought.

Is God truly a loving God to create a hell even BEFORE man sinned? This God not only anticipated that man would probably sin, but also that he would have a real juicy punishment awaiting him too. The obvious question to ask is, why would God create such a place to begin with? This shows that He obviously delights in torment because only He was responsible for needlessly creating it. I say this because there is NO OTHER PURPOSE for hell then punishment. No reformation, no redemption, just endless pain. If such a place existed, and God created it, then Christ came to save us from His own creation, for there would not need to be any torment had God not created hell. Hence, the only conclusion we can come to for this "hell" to exist, is that God wants to punish sinners.

God would not allow those He died to save, even when they hated Him, to be tortured for endless ages just because they chose the opposite path. The Bible doesn't support it, philosophy doesn't support it, common sense rejects it, and the conscience abhors such a thought. Isn't that enough proof?

 

[ThinkerMan]

Fasinating read...

I agree completely that the concept of eternal damnation and suffering seems quite contradictory to the ascribed attributes of God.

 

[Featherbop]

If the eternal hell doctrine were true, it would still be fair. So, to dismiss it because it sounds horrible is not logical, nor a reliable way on determining the truth of the matter.

I do see many problems with eternal hell, however, none of which have to do with it's sounding terrible.

 

[phatdawg]

Well... if you ask me, and I know you didn't, but anyone who can truly accept the teaching of conscious eternal torment for the lost and is not disturbed about it is exhibiting sociopathic tendencies.
To have absolutely no remorse or compassion for the loved one that everyone knows didn't go to heaven when he died, or the one that everyone knows won't go to heaven when they do pass on, is unthinkable.
If God's righteous punishment in the afterlife is eternal, then we need to be beating down doors, and doing everything in our power to make people listen to what we have to tell them. Natural human compassion would drive us to extremes to prevent them from going to hell, and it would drive us insane if we failed.
If the proponents of Eternal Torment really believed what they claim to believe, they would be blithering idiots with worry and concern that a loved one might slip into eternity without God.
I have been in several Baptist Churches (and other denominations as well) that were full of people that seemed perfectly happy to be there. Not a straight jacket or drooling idiot in the bunch. What a shame.
Maybe the ones who really believed were at home praying for the lost.

 

[guibox]

If the eternal hell doctrine were true, it would still be fair. So, to dismiss it because it sounds horrible is not logical, nor a reliable way on determining the truth of the matter.

However, we cannot assume that it must be true therefore we must accept it. If we are promoting a God of love, justice and mercy, and the doctrine itself not only goes against those attributes of God, and our God-given sense of right and wrong through our conscience abhors such a concept, than to me that is a good indication that something is wrong in man's interpretation. TO roll over and carry over the assumption that it is true and "Who are we to question God" is not only irresponsible but ignoring the value system that God gave us to begin with.

I do see many problems with eternal hell, however, none of which have to do with it's sounding terrible.

Could you share your views if they don't fall under the categories I've mentioned?

 

[FineLinen]

If the eternal hell doctrine were true, it would still be fair. So, to dismiss it because it sounds horrible is not logical, nor a reliable way on determining the truth of the matter.

However, we cannot assume that it must be true therefore we must accept it. If we are promoting a God of love, justice and mercy, and the doctrine itself not only goes against those attributes of God, and our God-given sense of right and wrong through our conscience abhors such a concept, than to me that is a good indication that something is wrong in man's interpretation. TO roll over and carry over the assumption that it is true and "Who are we to question God" is not only irresponsible but ignoring the value system that God gave us to begin with.

[quote="Darck Marck":20d62]I do see many problems with eternal hell, however, none of which have to do with it's sounding terrible.

Could you share your views if they don't fall under the categories I've mentioned?[/quote:20d62]

I will accept no explanation of any way of God that involves what I should scorn as false and unfair in a man. If it is said, 'It may be right of God to do something that it would not be right of man to do,' I answer, 'Yes, because more is required of God--not less.' God can have no duty that is not both just and merciful. More and higher justice and righteousness is required of Him by Himself, the Truth--greater nobleness, more penetrating sympathy, and nothing but what, if an honest man understood it, he would say was right. -George MacDonald-

-George MacDonald- (God The Merciful & Just)

 

[Charlotte]

Well... if you ask me, and I know you didn't, but anyone who can truly accept the teaching of conscious eternal torment for the lost and is not disturbed about it is exhibiting sociopathic tendencies.
To have absolutely no remorse or compassion for the loved one that everyone knows didn't go to heaven when he died, or the one that everyone knows won't go to heaven when they do pass on, is unthinkable.
If God's righteous punishment in the afterlife is eternal, then we need to be beating down doors, and doing everything in our power to make people listen to what we have to tell them. Natural human compassion would drive us to extremes to prevent them from going to hell, and it would drive us insane if we failed.
If the proponents of Eternal Torment really believed what they claim to believe, they would be blithering idiots with worry and concern that a loved one might slip into eternity without God.
I have been in several Baptist Churches (and other denominations as well) that were full of people that seemed perfectly happy to be there. Not a straight jacket or drooling idiot in the bunch. What a shame.
Maybe the ones who really believed were at home praying for the lost.

phatdawg, you did it again, I love it.

I wonder why these people don't see it this way? I know some have a terrible view of a God of love, it is just sad.

Charlotte

 

[phatdawg]

Thank you Charlotte. Maybe I should stay up til the wee hours of the morning, til I am giddy with exhaustion more often.

 

[ThinkerMan]

I will accept no explanation of any way of God that involves what I should scorn as false and unfair in a man. If it is said, 'It may be right of God to do something that it would not be right of man to do,' I answer, 'Yes, because more is required of God--not less.' God can have no duty that is not both just and merciful. More and higher justice and righteousness is required of Him by Himself, the Truth--greater nobleness, more penetrating sympathy, and nothing but what, if an honest man understood it, he would say was right. -George MacDonald-

-George MacDonald- (God The Merciful & Just)

FL:

If the above quote is to believed, then you have to admit you have no knowledge of God's idea of justice, fairness, righteousness etc. That God somehow has "different rules" we cannot comprehend.

If you have no knowledge, then all morality on earth is subjective, since God hasn't revealed it yet.

If it is subjective, then everyone's moral conduct is just as valued as that which you would call "Christian", since you have no better reason to suspect it's valid than it is not.

Christians like to credit "natural law" for our inherant morality and rules of society. That is, God has imparted in us reason, knowledge, logic and morality with which to conduct our lives.

Then, in order to eat the cake you have, you claim we shouldn't judge God's potential or ascribed actions with those very tools that the "natural law" proponents say were gifted by God.

Either God gave us the ability to judge fairness and justice from himself (which in turn we use to analyze God's potential actions, like hell) or he has not given us any such direction, in which case you are in no position to declare what is moral or just.

Or the third option, which is that God is not just, but since he's God, he can be unjust if he wants (not a very tenable position for most Christians).

Or the fourth, mine, that God simply doesn't exist and that man has created morality and justice as a tool to organize a complex society.

 

[Khristeeanos]

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.â€Â

Problems or no problems, it will happen.

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 14:9-14
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark...he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of His wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name. This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the LORD from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

 

[FineLinen]

I will accept no explanation of any way of God that involves what I should scorn as false and unfair in a man. If it is said, 'It may be right of God to do something that it would not be right of man to do,' I answer, 'Yes, because more is required of God--not less.' God can have no duty that is not both just and merciful. More and higher justice and righteousness is required of Him by Himself, the Truth--greater nobleness, more penetrating sympathy, and nothing but what, if an honest man understood it, he would say was right. -George MacDonald-

-George MacDonald- (God The Merciful & Just)

FL:

If the above quote is to believed, then you have to admit you have no knowledge of God's idea of justice, fairness, righteousness etc. That God somehow has "different rules" we cannot comprehend.

Hi there Thinker. The quote by George MacDonald is absolutely to be believed! Our heavenly Father is the Father of all fathers. His correction of the fallen sons of His is not an end in itself, but rather, the means whereby His love and grace and rectitude is realized. There are many things we cannot comprehend about our Lord, but His love and mercy endure forever, and that love & mercy I rest my weary soul upon!

Justice -George MacDonald-

http://www.kingdomlife.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2644

 

[Restin]

View of Hell...

I will accept no explanation of any way of God that involves what I should scorn as false and unfair in a man.... George MacDonald-

The quote by George MacDonald is absolutely to be believed!

Lucifer, in Eden, reinterpreted God in telling Eve, she would not surely die. Lucifer believed he was telling the truth -- He believed his own interpretation of God. So MacDonald thinks he can interpret the mind of God? Can MacDonald judge the false and unfairness of man? If MacDonald can do that -- he can BE GOD! Now FL says MacDonald is absolutely to be believed! Who is MacDonald to be absolutely believed?

• 1 Corinthians 2:3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, 4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
  
  Jeremiah 17:5 Thus says the LORD,
  " Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind And makes flesh his strength,

Any others reading along -- BEWARE -- when those who claim to know
the truth -- add the wisdom of man's words to the word of God.

• 2 Peter 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being
  reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
  
  NASU, w/emphasis supplied

Dime Ministries -- good post. Revelation 14:9-14, Rev 20:14-15 Rev 21:8

........Restin

 

[Dean]

Thinkerman, re-read the MacDonald quote. I may be missing something, but it looks like you have (in a very thoughtful and detailed response) absolutely agreed with the underlying premise of the quote (and much of MacDonald's work) which is that the CHARACTER of GOD is of a piece with the piece of His Character that He has instilled in us.

 

[Everyday Person]

I find it strange that people will hate Hitler and wish him the worst death possible for burning 12 million or so jews, gypsies, homosexuals ect. But will love and want to worship something that isnt even human, putting billions, possibly trillions, of human beings into an eternity of pain and suffering for not believing in him.


It seems a bit extreme that a so-called "loving" and "merciful" god would send people into a lake of fire to suffer for eternity. If he's so powerful, why couldnt he simply send the sinners back to earth until they live a christian life? Life alone can be tough enough. Something seems fishy when its promised "Believe what we believe, and live how we live and youll get to live an eternity of pleasure once you die. But if you dont, your going to burn in a lake of fire forever". Its a rather good device to get superstitious people - as they were around the time the bible was written - to believe.

 

[Everyday Person]

On second thought, it says that the Unbelievers will be burned in hell and blah blah blah, that kinda stuff.

Unbelievers.

But, if you die, and suddenly your in the clouds being judged by God...wouldnt you believe him to be true? And yes he see's into all mens hearts and stuff like that, but if he was there, in front of you, waving the hammer of judgement or whatever, wouldnt he be able to see that you believe in him, and because all sins - except not believing in god - are forgiven, youd be allowed into heaven?

 

[phatdawg]

Finelinen;
Who is this new brother we have here with us? Everyday People, is that right? I like this guy, we need to keep him around.

Greetings Everyday Person! If you can accept it, I offer this for your edification:

This is the prayer that flows from His Being: "That they may be One, and so it is; that all is returned to The Father, and so it is, that Heaven and Earth may be One; body, soul and Spirit may be One, and so it is; that all men shall now and forever be free, and so it is; that men shall know as they are known, and so it is.

He prayed and then sealed it with His Life, that we shall be forever reconciled with our Father, never again to believe we are separate . We have come to the end, praise God, and have found the all new as Him. When He prays, Our Father always hears His prayer. Thus, now we are ONE, Joint Heirs With Him, seated in Him at the right hand of Glory; all things now under our feet

 

[FineLinen]

Finelinen;

Who is this new brother we have here with us? Everyday People, is that right? I like this guy, we need to keep him around.


Greetings Everyday Person! If you can accept it, I offer this for your edification:

This is the prayer that flows from His Being: "That they may be One, and so it is; that all is returned to The Father, and so it is, that Heaven and Earth may be One; body, soul and Spirit may be One, and so it is; that all men shall now and forever be free, and so it is; that men shall know as they are known, and so it is.

He prayed and then sealed it with His Life, that we shall be forever reconciled with our Father, never again to believe we are separate . We have come to the end, praise God, and have found the all new as Him. When He prays, Our Father always hears His prayer. Thus, now we are ONE, Joint Heirs With Him, seated in Him at the right hand of Glory; all things now under our feet

Hi there PhatDawg. Every Day Person is heading into the arms of the Father. Our Father is in Christ hugging the world unto Himself. He is the Father of all fathers! He is the Father-Mother God; the abounding Father; the sum-total of all the finest mothers & fathers lined up side by side from every generation & every age +PLUS+

He Spake To Them Of The Father -Hannah W. Smith-

http://www.kingdomlife.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2587

It was in my own case a distinct era of immense importance when I first discovered this fact of the responsibility of my Father in Heaven. As it were, in a single moment, the burden of life was lifted off my shoulders and laid on His, and all my fears, and anxieties, and questionings dropped into the abyss of His loving care. I saw that the instinct of humanity, which demands that the parents who bring a child into the world are bound by every law, both human and divine, to care for and protect that child according to their best ability, is a divinely implanted instinct; and that it is meant to teach us the magnificent fact that the Creator, who has made human parents responsible toward their children, is Himself equally responsible toward His children. -Hannah W. Smith-

 

[FineLinen]

I will accept no explanation of any way of God that involves what I should scorn as false and unfair in a man. If it is said, 'It may be right of God to do something that it would not be right of man to do,' I answer, 'Yes, because more is required of God--not less.' God can have no duty that is not both just and merciful. More and higher justice and righteousness is required of Him by Himself, the Truth--greater nobleness, more penetrating sympathy, and nothing but what, if an honest man understood it, he would say was right. -George MacDonald-

Tyranny, unkindness, and neglect might perhaps be attributed to a God whose name was only a king, or a judge, or a lawgiver; but of a God, who is before all else a father, and, of necessity, since He is God, a good father, no such things could possibly be believed. Moreover, since He is an “everlasting Father,†He must in the very nature of things act, always and under all circumstances, as a good father ought to act, and never in any other way. It is inconceivable that a good father could forget, or neglect, or be unfair to his children. A savage father might, or a wicked father; but a good father never! And in calling our God by the blessed name of Father, we ought to know that, if He is a father at all, He must be the very best of fathers, and His fatherhood must be the highest ideal of fatherhood of which we can conceive. It is, as I have said, a fatherhood that combines both father and mother in one, in our highest ideals of both, and comprises all the love, and all the tenderness, and all the compassion, and all the yearning, and all the self-sacrifice, that we cannot but recognize to be the inmost soul of parentage, even though we may not always see it carried out by all earthly parents. -Hannah W. Smith-

http://www.ccel.org/s/smith_hw/comfort/htm/V.htm#V

 

[guibox]

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.â€Â

Problems or no problems, it will happen.

[quote:8c9df]Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

[/quote:8c9df]

The fact of hell is not being disputed here DIME (Universalists notwithstanding, but I am not reasoning with them on this one, just traditionalists). It is the nature of this hell and the duration that my arguments are addressing. Did you honestly look at what I wrote at the beginning?

Do you not find your God-given conscience and sense of right and wrong agreeing with the logic of it? If so, then that tells us that God and the Bible are not the problem, but our interpretation that needs adjustment.

 

[Free]

quibox,

Do you not find your God-given conscience and sense of right and wrong agreeing with the logic of it? If so, then that tells us that God and the Bible are not the problem, but our interpretation that needs adjustment.

Or, it could just be that your ideas of justice and love are wrong.