Please Vote... for life and liberty!

[ZealotX]

I think there are some fundamental misunderstandings that turn into political hot potatoes.

If you ask actual bible experts they will all tell you that abortion is required in the bible under certain conditions. So the idea that Christians should be anti-abortion is not based on biblical precedent. And since this is the case I'd really like to know, alternatively, where this idea comes from. Why are so many Christians tossing the bible aside to vote so strongly against abortion?

And then this term "innocent unborn babies" I find interesting. What difference does "innocent vs guilty" have for Christians who believe in a plan of salvation? The value of life is not in its innocence or guilt. The Bible says everyone is "born in sin". And the whole point of "judge not lest ye be judged" is to highlight the fact that all lives have equal value. No one is better than anyone else. The Bible compares our righteousness to filthy rags.

So I find the judgment to be interesting, that we should protect "innocent" unborn babies, and yet after they are born the same people who wanted them to live will be the first to turn against them once they've committed a crime. They don't want to support them financially or give them equal opportunities. They just seem to make this an issue of their own self-righteous arrogance of being seen as holding the "right" position on the issue.

But Yeshua/Jesus said "whatsoever you do to the least of these..." you've done it to me. And he wasn't talking about "innocent" children. When Yeshua helped the woman caught in adultery, what did he say? He said "he who is without sin cast the first stone." But is that what everyone is doing? Is everyone throwing stones at others somehow one of these same innocent babies who have a right to judge? No, I think what it is, in reality, is that people want to demonstrate their religious ego by "voting against" others who they deem unworthy and use their beliefs to dictate to everyone else how they should live. And those standards in this case do not match the bible, so what then?

Where were those defenders of "innocent unborn babies" during the time of Noah? When Abraham confronted his God about the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah, he argued... what if per adventure you were to find 10 righteous? Not only did this argument not come up in the story of Noah, but are you telling me that Sodom and Gomorrah didn't have 100 innocent babies? 50? 10? What about the flood? Seems to be the ultimate in collateral damage. Did it have a zero baby kill rate? How about the Egyptian babies who happened to be the firstborn? What about the babies of the inhabitants of the places the Israelites conquered? I submit that it's not a question of babies at all because even when babies are born you can justify them losing their lives. What about Sudden Infant Death Syndrome? If these innocent infants die, isn't it the will of God? If EVERYTHING happens according to God's will... how does that somehow skip over abortions? Again... whether God does it directly or indirectly, where is the moral outrage machine when innocent babies die or are born disfigured, or with mutations, or with disabilities? No, these things you can justify. But when it comes to abortion, that becomes a bridge too far. Why? Because now it is a partisan issue where you can feel superior to those on the other side.

 

[jaybo]

I think there are some fundamental misunderstandings that turn into political hot potatoes.

If you ask actual bible experts they will all tell you that abortion is required in the bible under certain conditions. So the idea that Christians should be anti-abortion is not based on biblical precedent. And since this is the case I'd really like to know, alternatively, where this idea comes from. Why are so many Christians tossing the bible aside to vote so strongly against abortion?

And then this term "innocent unborn babies" I find interesting. What difference does "innocent vs guilty" have for Christians who believe in a plan of salvation? The value of life is not in its innocence or guilt. The Bible says everyone is "born in sin". And the whole point of "judge not lest ye be judged" is to highlight the fact that all lives have equal value. No one is better than anyone else. The Bible compares our righteousness to filthy rags.

So I find the judgment to be interesting, that we should protect "innocent" unborn babies, and yet after they are born the same people who wanted them to live will be the first to turn against them once they've committed a crime. They don't want to support them financially or give them equal opportunities. They just seem to make this an issue of their own self-righteous arrogance of being seen as holding the "right" position on the issue.

But Yeshua/Jesus said "whatsoever you do to the least of these..." you've done it to me. And he wasn't talking about "innocent" children. When Yeshua helped the woman caught in adultery, what did he say? He said "he who is without sin cast the first stone." But is that what everyone is doing? Is everyone throwing stones at others somehow one of these same innocent babies who have a right to judge? No, I think what it is, in reality, is that people want to demonstrate their religious ego by "voting against" others who they deem unworthy and use their beliefs to dictate to everyone else how they should live. And those standards in this case do not match the bible, so what then?

Where were those defenders of "innocent unborn babies" during the time of Noah? When Abraham confronted his God about the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah, he argued... what if per adventure you were to find 10 righteous? Not only did this argument not come up in the story of Noah, but are you telling me that Sodom and Gomorrah didn't have 100 innocent babies? 50? 10? What about the flood? Seems to be the ultimate in collateral damage. Did it have a zero baby kill rate? How about the Egyptian babies who happened to be the firstborn? What about the babies of the inhabitants of the places the Israelites conquered? I submit that it's not a question of babies at all because even when babies are born you can justify them losing their lives. What about Sudden Infant Death Syndrome? If these innocent infants die, isn't it the will of God? If EVERYTHING happens according to God's will... how does that somehow skip over abortions? Again... whether God does it directly or indirectly, where is the moral outrage machine when innocent babies die or are born disfigured, or with mutations, or with disabilities? No, these things you can justify. But when it comes to abortion, that becomes a bridge too far. Why? Because now it is a partisan issue where you can feel superior to those on the other side.

This is a very thoughtful post. Thanks for writing it.

The issue of abortion has become a political "hot potato". People often react to the issue emotionally -- "thou shalt not murder" -- without considering the individual circumstances. Abortion is a medical procedure that, like all medical procedures, should be a decision made by the pregnant woman, her physician, and her family. For example, there is the condition of an ectopic pregnancy, where fetal development occurs outside of the uterus. If an abortion is not performed, both the woman and the fetus will die. There are other conditions where the fetus, if not aborted, will die an agonizing death shortly after birth.

These issues do not address the pregnancies caused by incest and/or rape. Why should a woman who is a victim of assault, including being sexually assaulted by a family member, have to carry the fetus to term, then take care of the child for years while the perpetrator goes entirely free? Children as young as ten can be victims, and their lives are ruined by an act of violence.

There are, of course, other situations where a woman uses poor judgement and becomes pregnant, then decides that she simply doesn't want the child.

In other words, unintended pregnancies cannot be lumped into a single category. An unintended pregnancy is a difficult situation, so it cannot be decided by a single government rule. It must be a decision made by the pregnant woman, her physician, and her family, taking all factors into account.

 

[Free]

If you ask actual bible experts they will all tell you that abortion is required in the bible under certain conditions.

What conditions are these and who are these "actual Bible experts" making such a claim?

So the idea that Christians should be anti-abortion is not based on biblical precedent. And since this is the case I'd really like to know, alternatively, where this idea comes from. Why are so many Christians tossing the bible aside to vote so strongly against abortion?

With life beginning at conception, as science and reason show, it means that from the moment of conception, there is a living human being at an early stage of development. Since the unborn are truly human, they are as fully deserving of life and protection as those who are born. This means that abortion is murder. That they are the most defenseless of all human beings, makes abortion all the more heinous.

The value of life is not in its innocence or guilt.

Exactly. It's in the biblical fact that all humans are made in the image of God and have intrinsic value. Hence, again, abortion is murder.

So I find the judgment to be interesting, that we should protect "innocent" unborn babies, and yet after they are born the same people who wanted them to live will be the first to turn against them once they've committed a crime. They don't want to support them financially or give them equal opportunities. They just seem to make this an issue of their own self-righteous arrogance of being seen as holding the "right" position on the issue.

Quite a bit of generalization here. What can you provide for evidence?

But Yeshua/Jesus said "whatsoever you do to the least of these..." you've done it to me. And he wasn't talking about "innocent" children.

As you may know, he was talking about believers.

But when it comes to abortion, that becomes a bridge too far. Why? Because now it is a partisan issue where you can feel superior to those on the other side.

It's because it is murder of the most defenseless human beings. It is the largest moral issue of our day, akin to the Atlantic slave trade and the Holocaust. They all are based on defining a group of humans as less than human in order to justify all manner of evil against them.

Christians are supposed to be for truth and justice. As such, this is arguably the most pressing issue.

 

[Free]

Abortion is a medical procedure that, like all medical procedures, should be a decision made by the pregnant woman, her physician, and her family. For example, there is the condition of an ectopic pregnancy, where fetal development occurs outside of the uterus. If an abortion is not performed, both the woman and the fetus will die. There are other conditions where the fetus, if not aborted, will die an agonizing death shortly after birth.

These issues do not address the pregnancies caused by incest and/or rape. Why should a woman who is a victim of assault, including being sexually assaulted by a family member, have to carry the fetus to term, then take care of the child for years while the perpetrator goes entirely free? Children as young as ten can be victims, and their lives are ruined by an act of violence.

There are, of course, other situations where a woman uses poor judgement and becomes pregnant, then decides that she simply doesn't want the child.

In other words, unintended pregnancies cannot be lumped into a single category. An unintended pregnancy is a difficult situation, so it cannot be decided by a single government rule. It must be a decision made by the pregnant woman, her physician, and her family, taking all factors into account.

Abortion is murder. That is the rational and biblical view. Hard cases do not justify the taking of a innocent, defenseless human life.

 

[jaybo]

Abortion is murder. That is the rational and biblical view. Hard cases do not justify the taking of a innocent, defenseless human life.

Abortion is not murder. It is a medical procedure.

Let's take the case of an ectopic pregnancy, where the fetus is developing in the fallopian tube, not the uterus. If an abortion is not performed, both the fetus and the mother will die. So by not performing the necessary medical procedure, two lives are lost. That is murder. It is neither rational nor biblical to kill the mother and fetus! Hard cases, such as this, require medical intervention. Not doing so does not justify the taking of two human lives.

The phrase "abortion is murder" is a political slogan, reducing a very complex and serious medical situation to a political slogan. It is designed to inflame people's passions, period.

 

[jaybo]

What about spontaneous abortions? (Spontaneous abortion, by definition, is death of the fetus). In there US there are more than 3,000,000 cases annually. What is the cause of these deaths?

The spontaneous loss of a woman's pregnancy before the 20th week that can be both physically and emotionally painful.
The most common type of pregnancy loss, miscarriages often occur because the fetus isn't developing normally.
Symptoms include fluid, blood, or tissue passing from the vagina and pain in the belly or lower back. It’s also common to feel sadness or grief.

Unfortunately, the miscarriage process can’t be reversed once it has started. However, medications or procedures such as a dilation and curettage can prevent certain types of complications. In addition, counseling and support is widely available.

What, in your opinion, is the cause of these spontaneous abortions? Is a human life created, then destroyed?

 

[ZealotX]

What conditions are these and who are these "actual Bible experts" making such a claim?


With life beginning at conception, as science and reason show, it means that from the moment of conception, there is a living human being at an early stage of development. Since the unborn are truly human, they are as fully deserving of life and protection as those who are born. This means that abortion is murder. That they are the most defenseless of all human beings, makes abortion all the more heinous.


Exactly. It's in the biblical fact that all humans are made in the image of God and have intrinsic value. Hence, again, abortion is murder.


Quite a bit of generalization here. What can you provide for evidence?


As you may know, he was talking about believers.


It's because it is murder of the most defenseless human beings. It is the largest moral issue of our day, akin to the Atlantic slave trade and the Holocaust. They all are based on defining a group of humans as less than human in order to justify all manner of evil against them.

Christians are supposed to be for truth and justice. As such, this is arguably the most pressing issue.

For example: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12178933/

As far as life beginning at conception... I disagree. Life begins well before that. My sperm cells are alive. A woman's egg is also alive. And research finds that sometimes sperm cells "murder" other sperm cells. But of course no one defends the lives of sperm because only one of them gets to fertilize the egg (normally) and the rest die. And if I don't have sex at all or the woman isn't ovulating or can't get pregnant for other reasons... they ALL die. So you have to draw a distinction between different stages of life and when that life is a person now, not just a group of living cells. Because living cells are born and die all the time. Nature programs them to do so. Billions of your cells, right now, are dying. But it's okay because most of them are being replaced by new cells. But you don't defend the cell, you defend the person. Right? Destroying a cell isn't murder, right? You don't murder your skin cells every time you exfoliate. Science does not say that conception = person. It's not a baby human at this point. It's a fusion of 2 cells that were just a second ago, what? Precious? No.

If you believe in God why would God create the reproductive process in a way that would require a million living sperm cells? It's kind of like "he knew that they wouldn't all make it??" And because he knew they wouldn't all make it he was okay with humans making the decision about when to have an actual baby. If he wanted it to be forced then abortion wouldn't be a thing at all because doesn't he have the power to make it so that a woman conceives ONLY when she is ready to start a family? And yet the equipment does the same function even in cases of rape and incest.

Which one is the image of God? Is it a sperm cell that is the image of God? When God said let us make man in our image, did he first create an embryo? Did he create man as a zygote? Which of these is the image of God?

With all due respect, and I say this in love, I believe that Christians (not just you) have been highly politicized and taken advantage of. I think they wanted you to think abortion is murder because they wanted you to think anyone in favor of abortion is a murderer in the same way that the new school attack on liberals is to say that they are pedophiles. If you can match the opponent to something hated and indefensible (like killing a child) then you don't have to work hard for their vote and you can get them to ignore other issues (like how you treat humans) so that the hatred against abortion speaks louder than the same political party giving so much aid and comfort to racism and misogyny. So for Christians (especially evangelicals), the issue is dumbed down and the complexity is removed as if it was a rounding error. No bible is required. They just reduce it down to "abortion is murder". And you know what? It's a very clever way to manipulate people.

According to the bible, it's not even considered "murder" when you kill a full-grown adult human if you do so in war or in self-defense. That's decidedly, and by everyone, NOT MURDER. But for a fetus that doesn't even have a beating heart you want to say its murder. Is it possible, that this conjecture is nothing more than propaganda? Moreover, if a woman loses a pregnancy without abortion... is that murder too? What if a woman is barren? Is God pre-aborting her children? How does it work?

 

[jaybo]

For example: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12178933/

As far as life beginning at conception... I disagree. Life begins well before that. My sperm cells are alive. A woman's egg is also alive. And research finds that sometimes sperm cells "murder" other sperm cells. But of course no one defends the lives of sperm because only one of them gets to fertilize the egg (normally) and the rest die. And if I don't have sex at all or the woman isn't ovulating or can't get pregnant for other reasons... they ALL die. So you have to draw a distinction between different stages of life and when that life is a person now, not just a group of living cells. Because living cells are born and die all the time. Nature programs them to do so. Billions of your cells, right now, are dying. But it's okay because most of them are being replaced by new cells. But you don't defend the cell, you defend the person. Right? Destroying a cell isn't murder, right? You don't murder your skin cells every time you exfoliate. Science does not say that conception = person. It's not a baby human at this point. It's a fusion of 2 cells that were just a second ago, what? Precious? No.

If you believe in God why would God create the reproductive process in a way that would require a million living sperm cells? It's kind of like "he knew that they wouldn't all make it??" And because he knew they wouldn't all make it he was okay with humans making the decision about when to have an actual baby. If he wanted it to be forced then abortion wouldn't be a thing at all because doesn't he have the power to make it so that a woman conceives ONLY when she is ready to start a family? And yet the equipment does the same function even in cases of rape and incest.

Which one is the image of God? Is it a sperm cell that is the image of God? When God said let us make man in our image, did he first create an embryo? Did he create man as a zygote? Which of these is the image of God?

With all due respect, and I say this in love, I believe that Christians (not just you) have been highly politicized and taken advantage of. I think they wanted you to think abortion is murder because they wanted you to think anyone in favor of abortion is a murderer in the same way that the new school attack on liberals is to say that they are pedophiles. If you can match the opponent to something hated and indefensible (like killing a child) then you don't have to work hard for their vote and you can get them to ignore other issues (like how you treat humans) so that the hatred against abortion speaks louder than the same political party giving so much aid and comfort to racism and misogyny. So for Christians (especially evangelicals), the issue is dumbed down and the complexity is removed as if it was a rounding error. No bible is required. They just reduce it down to "abortion is murder". And you know what? It's a very clever way to manipulate people.

According to the bible, it's not even considered "murder" when you kill a full-grown adult human if you do so in war or in self-defense. That's decidedly, and by everyone, NOT MURDER. But for a fetus that doesn't even have a beating heart you want to say its murder. Is it possible, that this conjecture is nothing more than propaganda? Moreover, if a woman loses a pregnancy without abortion... is that murder too? What if a woman is barren? Is God pre-aborting her children? How does it work?

Great post!!!

 

[Free]

For example: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12178933/

"The most obvious passage is from Exodus 21:22-25. This part of the Covenant Code legislates the case of a pregnant woman who becomes involved in a brawl between 2 men and has a miscarriage. A distinction is then made between the penalty that is to be exacted for the loss of the fetus and injury to the woman. For the fetus, a fine is paid as determined by the husband and the judges. However, if the woman is injured or dies, "lex talionis" is applied -- life for life, eye for eye, etc."

First, even if the above interpretation is correct, it doesn't follow that the fetus is seen as less than fully human. Such an argument, to be consistent, would then also have to be made that slaves are less than fully human:

Exo 21:20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged.
Exo 21:21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money. (ESV)

Secondly, the problem with this argument is that the passage does not appear to make the distinction that the author claims. That is, it isn't about the "loss of the fetus" vs. "injury to the woman." It speaks of no harm to either or both of the fetus and the woman vs. harm to either or both the fetus and the woman:

Exo 21:22 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,
Exo 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. (ESV)

The Hebrew strongly suggests that it is a fully formed child that comes out, and that if it survives--"there is no harm"--then a fine is paid. But, if there is harm, then the appropriate response is to be meted out.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12178933/

Liberal sources are hardly the way to prove anything.

As far as life beginning at conception... I disagree. Life begins well before that. My sperm cells are alive. A woman's egg is also alive. And research finds that sometimes sperm cells "murder" other sperm cells. But of course no one defends the lives of sperm because only one of them gets to fertilize the egg (normally) and the rest die. And if I don't have sex at all or the woman isn't ovulating or can't get pregnant for other reasons... they ALL die. So you have to draw a distinction between different stages of life and when that life is a person now, not just a group of living cells. Because living cells are born and die all the time. Nature programs them to do so. Billions of your cells, right now, are dying. But it's okay because most of them are being replaced by new cells. But you don't defend the cell, you defend the person. Right? Destroying a cell isn't murder, right? You don't murder your skin cells every time you exfoliate. Science does not say that conception = person. It's not a baby human at this point. It's a fusion of 2 cells that were just a second ago, what? Precious? No.

Arguments to cells and sperm as life are not at all relevant. It goes without saying that in discussions on abortion, when the argument is made that "life begins at conception," we are talking about the first beginnings of a distinct human life, that left to its own, and if all goes well, will fully develop and be born.

If you believe in God why would God create the reproductive process in a way that would require a million living sperm cells? It's kind of like "he knew that they wouldn't all make it??" And because he knew they wouldn't all make it he was okay with humans making the decision about when to have an actual baby. If he wanted it to be forced then abortion wouldn't be a thing at all because doesn't he have the power to make it so that a woman conceives ONLY when she is ready to start a family? And yet the equipment does the same function even in cases of rape and incest.

I don't understand your argument here.

With all due respect, and I say this in love, I believe that Christians (not just you) have been highly politicized and taken advantage of. I think they wanted you to think abortion is murder because they wanted you to think anyone in favor of abortion is a murderer in the same way that the new school attack on liberals is to say that they are pedophiles. If you can match the opponent to something hated and indefensible (like killing a child) then you don't have to work hard for their vote and you can get them to ignore other issues (like how you treat humans) so that the hatred against abortion speaks louder than the same political party giving so much aid and comfort to racism and misogyny. So for Christians (especially evangelicals), the issue is dumbed down and the complexity is removed as if it was a rounding error. No bible is required. They just reduce it down to "abortion is murder". And you know what? It's a very clever way to manipulate people.

That argument cuts both ways. It could very well be the pro-abortionists that have been taken advantage of. Again, this goes back to what I said about the justification for slavery and the Holocaust--make any group of people less than human and one can justify any treatment they want against that group.

For many/most anti-abortionists, it isn't about making people out to be murders, it's about

It's interesting that you bring up racism and misogyny, since most abortions occur among visible minorities and is also used for sex selection, and not only in China. My country, with a very liberal government, rejected a conservative Member of Parliament's (MP) motion to ban sex-selective abortion. What is surprising is that not only did all the left-wing MPs vote against it, so did 38 conservative MPs.

According to the bible, it's not even considered "murder" when you kill a full-grown adult human if you do so in war or in self-defense. That's decidedly, and by everyone, NOT MURDER.

Of course. Here is Mirriam-Webster's definition of murder:

: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
: to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice

So, it is the purposeful, unjustified taking of a human life.

But for a fetus that doesn't even have a beating heart you want to say its murder. Is it possible, that this conjecture is nothing more than propaganda?

Firstly, it's far from conjecture. Secondly, no, it isn't propaganda. The propaganda is on the pro-abortion side, where some who provide abortions or argue in favor of them have admitted that it is the taking of a human life, but then spread the idea to popular culture that the unborn are merely clumps of cells or parasites. Why is that? Could it be because it is good for business?

Thirdly, to imply that since "a fetus doesn't even have a beating heart," that it can't be murder, is to beg the question as to whether the fetus is truly human. That is to ignore that it is a human at a certain point in development.

Moreover, if a woman loses a pregnancy without abortion... is that murder too?

Of course not.

What if a woman is barren? Is God pre-aborting her children? How does it work?

If a woman is barren, she is barren. There are likely biological or physiological reasons, and has nothing to do with abortion.

 

[Free]

Abortion is not murder. It is a medical procedure.

It is murder. It is the unjustified taking of a human life.

Let's take the case of an ectopic pregnancy, where the fetus is developing in the fallopian tube, not the uterus. If an abortion is not performed, both the fetus and the mother will die. So by not performing the necessary medical procedure, two lives are lost. That is murder. It is neither rational nor biblical to kill the mother and fetus! Hard cases, such as this, require medical intervention. Not doing so does not justify the taking of two human lives.

That is about the only case where ending the life of the child is justified and the only one that really isn't considered an abortion, since both will die if nothing is done and the fetus will always die.

The irony is, the chances of an ectopic pregnancy increases with having previously had an abortion: https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.72.3.253

From just prior to the legalization of abortion, ectopic pregnancies accounted for 0.48% of pregnancies in 1970 and by 1980, rose to 1.45%, and increase of 300%.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000320.htm

The phrase "abortion is murder" is a political slogan, reducing a very complex and serious medical situation to a political slogan. It is designed to inflame people's passions, period.

Not at all. It is the truth of the matter, logically and scientifically, not to mention biblically.

What about spontaneous abortions? (Spontaneous abortion, by definition, is death of the fetus). In there US there are more than 3,000,000 cases annually. What is the cause of these deaths?

What about them? What does the cause of those deaths have to do with discussing abortion?

The spontaneous loss of a woman's pregnancy before the 20th week that can be both physically and emotionally painful.
The most common type of pregnancy loss, miscarriages often occur because the fetus isn't developing normally.
Symptoms include fluid, blood, or tissue passing from the vagina and pain in the belly or lower back. It’s also common to feel sadness or grief.

Unfortunately, the miscarriage process can’t be reversed once it has started. However, medications or procedures such as a dilation and curettage can prevent certain types of complications. In addition, counseling and support is widely available.

What, in your opinion, is the cause of these spontaneous abortions? Is a human life created, then destroyed?

I'm not a relevant medical professional, so why should I provide an opinion on the cause of miscarriages, especially since it isn't relevant to the abortion debate?

It is a human life that is destroyed, but that is just what happens naturally, for what I assume are various reasons.

 

[jaybo]

It is murder. It is the unjustified taking of a human life.


That is about the only case where ending the life of the child is justified and the only one that really isn't considered an abortion, since both will die if nothing is done and the fetus will always die.

The irony is, the chances of an ectopic pregnancy increases with having previously had an abortion: https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.72.3.253

From just prior to the legalization of abortion, ectopic pregnancies accounted for 0.48% of pregnancies in 1970 and by 1980, rose to 1.45%, and increase of 300%.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000320.htm


Not at all. It is the truth of the matter, logically and scientifically, not to mention biblically.


What about them? What does the cause of those deaths have to do with discussing abortion?


I'm not a relevant medical professional, so why should I provide an opinion on the cause of miscarriages, especially since it isn't relevant to the abortion debate?

It is a human life that is destroyed, but that is just what happens naturally, for what I assume are various reasons.

I am not a relevant medical professional but ... my wife was a certified nurse-midwife for many years. I accept her understanding about abortion, which is that it can be a medical and/or personal necessity for a variety of reasons. She was never involved with any abortion that went against her Christian values. That is why I object to the "abortion is murder" propaganda.

 

[Corn Pop]

There just needs to be clarity. I mean I think a miscarriage is a form of abortion and might need medical assistance and that's out of the womans control, and so is when a baby starts growing in the fallopian tube and there is no possible way a baby is going to survive a few weeks and could put the womans life at risk so might need medical procedure. I think that's where the medical emergency comes in and that's understandable.

Abortion for convenience that's another story. Don't want a baby then take all the precautions not to have one only to just terminate it out of convenience. It's quite simple really.

And the thing is abortion should not be taken lightly, im sure it's not nice for anyone to go through emotionally no mater the situation.

 

[Corn Pop]

Even woman who have had a baby are probably surprised at what a single microscopic tadpole from a man can produce and put them through in 9 months.

 

[Corn Pop]

Anyhow I'm out. Taking time off. Need a break from all the stress. Gone on a fishing mission. Found a dock miles away, it's so good I been catching and releasing record fish. Got a big amberjack to the dock and went to record it to send my friend and a huge fat shark come up and just inhaled it and took off, so now I got a shark on and I had to test my fishing gear, i just locked it up because no shark going to steal my fish and spool me and take all my line and gear i need teach it a lesson.

So I got shark to the dock and cut the line, and I got all my gear back except the hook, and the shark swim away in peace.

I got most of it on camera. I don't want to catch a shark and I never target them it's just if they take my fish I need teach it a lesson.

 

[hawkman]

Anyhow I'm out. Taking time off. Need a break from all the stress. Gone on a fishing mission. Found a dock miles away, it's so good I been catching and releasing record fish. Got a big amberjack to the dock and went to record it to send my friend and a huge fat shark come up and just inhaled it and took off, so now I got a shark on and I had to test my fishing gear, i just locked it up because no shark going to steal my fish and spool me and take all my line and gear i need teach it a lesson.

So I got shark to the dock and cut the line, and I got all my gear back except the hook, and the shark swim away in peace.

I got most of it on camera. I don't want to catch a shark and I never target them it's just if they take my fish I need teach it a lesson.

We're gonna need a bigger boat .

 

[Corn Pop]

We're gonna need a bigger boat .

Im just landbased and every dock i turn up has different strategies and techniques. I'm just trying to master this one.

This new dock, now i know i have to go hard and fast on the big fish and lock it up quick and not give any time for runs otherwise they straight the foul as most the time or the sharks will get em.

If it's a lip hook and too much pressure and it pops the hook so be it, but have to lock and go hard and fast to land.

 

[jaybo]

"Abortion is murder" is nothing more than a political slogan, adopted by people whom it hurts to think. It's the equivalent of Orwell's phrase "four legs good, two legs bad" in Animal Farm.

I'm thankful that so many people went to the polls and rejected the anti-abortion measures on their ballots.

 

[Free]

I am not a relevant medical professional but ... my wife was a certified nurse-midwife for many years. I accept her understanding about abortion, which is that it can be a medical and/or personal necessity for a variety of reasons.

There is only one medical reason I can think of, and that is an ectopic pregnancy. There are no reasons of personal necessity.

She was never involved with any abortion that went against her Christian values.

If she has been involved in abortions that don't involve an ectopic pregnancy, then her values don't really align with the Bible on this issue.

That is why I object to the "abortion is murder" propaganda.

Do you know what cognitive dissonance is? It is murder and it isn't propaganda. It is the Christian position.

"Abortion is murder" is nothing more than a political slogan, adopted by people whom it hurts to think.

Interesting that you like to insult those who disagree with you on this issue, much like the world does on this and many other issues that go against Christianity. Of course, such an argument cuts both ways. It could be argued that it is much easier to just accept what the world says about abortion, especially when it comes from abortion providers, for whom abortion is good business. It is much easier to accept their arguments than have to study the issue deeply and risk standing out and be seen to be going against the tide.

Once one studies their arguments, it becomes obvious just how fallacious and poor their arguments are, never mind that they contradict the Bible. So, if anything, the "thinking side" belongs to those who truly follow Scripture on this issue and don't believe whatever the world tells them on this issue.

 

[jaybo]

There is only one medical reason I can think of, and that is an ectopic pregnancy. There are no reasons of personal necessity.


If she has been involved in abortions that don't involve an ectopic pregnancy, then her values don't really align with the Bible on this issue.


Do you know what cognitive dissonance is? It is murder and it isn't propaganda. It is the Christian position.


Interesting that you like to insult those who disagree with you on this issue, much like the world does on this and many other issues that go against Christianity. Of course, such an argument cuts both ways. It could be argued that it is much easier to just accept what the world says about abortion, especially when it comes from abortion providers, for whom abortion is good business. It is much easier to accept their arguments than have to study the issue deeply and risk standing out and be seen to be going against the tide.

Once one studies their arguments, it becomes obvious just how fallacious and poor their arguments are, never mind that they contradict the Bible. So, if anything, the "thinking side" belongs to those who truly follow Scripture on this issue and don't believe whatever the world tells them on this issue.

Those are simply your opinions, and they are both wrong and naive. And you should watch your personal insults. My wife, a Christian, knows more about abortions than you will ever know. You come from political ignorance, she comes from professional knowledge,

And who are you to say what is the Christian position? You are not Jesus Christ!!! You may think you speak from some position of authority, but you aren't.

You are just brainwashed. Once one studies your arguments, it becomes obvious just how fallacious and poor your arguments are, never mind that they contradict the Bible.

 

[Free]

Those are simply your opinions, and they are both wrong and naive.

You have yet to prove such and have given only your opinion.

And you should watch your personal insults. My wife, a Christian, knows more about abortions than you will ever know. You come from political ignorance, she comes from professional knowledge.

I haven't insulted anyone, unlike you. I don't need to know how abortions are performed to understand the reasons for them and that the vast majority are murder.

And who are you to say what is the Christian position? You are not Jesus Christ!!! You may think you speak from some position of authority, but you aren't.

I'm a Christian who reads and studies the Bible. Perhaps you don't believe 2 Tim 3:16-17, but I do.

You are just brainwashed.

See, insult.

Once one studies your arguments, it becomes obvious just how fallacious and poor your arguments are, never mind that they contradict the Bible.

Still intent on continuing with the infantile mimicking, I see. It's a strong indicator that you don't have any rational or biblical reason for believing that abortion is not murder. It could also be an indicator of cognitive dissonance. It really does seem as though you've never actually studied the arguments for or against, but only go by what your wife and the leftists tell you.