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Poking Holes in Pre-Wrath ; - )
- Thread starter JM
- Start date
Vic C.
Member
The standard Pre Wrath belief is that from the start of the Day of the Lord to His actual return to the Earth is the Parousia.JM said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Coming
I guess by using that definition, they are on to something. Me... I would think that both the harpazio and the return to Earth will be like a thief in the night to those who are in the dark.
The Scriptural Pre-trib Rapture of the Church
Hi guys,
If I may, please let me add a few corrections to misunderstandings about the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Let me start with the Scriptural chronology, and take it from there.
The Rapture and End Times Chronology -
The prophetic chronological timing of end times events as outlined in the Bible are as follows:
1. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as Jacob's Trouble.
2. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 'weeks' of years He has decreed upon the entire history of Israel, the length of time involved in the tribulation is revealed, along with the person who will set it off. The antichrist, who will establish a seven year covenant with them. Dan.9:27.
3. Jesus confirmation of Daniel's 70th and final 'week,' consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in His ministry to the 'lost sheep of Israel. Mt.24:15.
4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was established on May 14, 1948.
5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ will be raptured, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. Jn.14:2-4, 28, 1 Thes.4:14-18, Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ through those who are still alive at His return for His Church.
6. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceding the revealing of the antichrist, which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation. 2 Thes.2:3-8, in perfect harmony with Dan.9:27.
7. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is in heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, while the tribulation is taking place and is not heard about again until the wedding with the Lamb [Jesus Christ] takes place with His Church in heaven. Rev.19:7-8.
8. Jesus returns from heaven - with His Church following Him on white horses, and dressed in fine linen, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints, white and clean - in His Second Coming to the earth. Zech.14:4-5, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14.
9. Jesus ends the war of Armageddon, saves the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah [Zech.12:1 , and 'all Israel will be saved' [Rom.11:26]. The antichrist and false prophet along with their armies are defeated and the two of them are thrown into the lake of fire, and their armies are all killed by the sword. Rev.19:20-21.
10. Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:1-3.
11. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those who were martyred during the tribulation. They were not believers in Jesus Christ at the time the tribulation began. Therefore, they do not belong to the Christian Church that was raptured previously. They will be priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years. Rev.20:4-6.
12. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and all the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9.
13. Satan will be released from the Abyss to once again go out to deceive the nations and people as the 1,000 year Kingdom reign of Christ on the earth ends. He will gather millions of people who come against God's people at Jerusalem. But God sends fire from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them and throwing Satan into the lake of fire. Rev.20:10.
14. The second resurrection takes place that consists of all the Godless and wicked and the great white throne is set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgement, and along with death, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, they will be thrown into the lake of fire. Rev.20:11-15.
15. The old heaven and earth passes away and God creates an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem descends from heaven. Rev.21:1.
The rest of chapter 21 alludes to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever.
The above is fully endorsed by the following:
A. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School.
B. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute.
C. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary.
D. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology.
E. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible.
F. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary.
G. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes.
H. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary.
I. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible.
The above theologians represent the Editorial Committee of the 1967 edition of the Scofield Bible.
Others who endorse the rapture theology of the Church are:
Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, James Kennedy, Presbyterian minister, Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Hay, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV minstry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker, Dr. Norbert Lieth, hundreds of thousands of others!
About JM's point #1. The tales that Margeret McDonald and John Darby 'invented' the rapture theology in the mid 19th century is completely false. The rapture of the Church was taught by Jesus, Paul and John. More of that later.
Before the mid 2nd century, the early apostolic church was scattered throughout the world of that time [Mt.26:31], and were without central organization, due to persecution, until the early 4th century, under the Roman Emperor, Constantine, who decreed Christianity the religion of the world, in 325 A.D.
To make a long story shorter, Constantine commissioned Jerome to translate the Greek Septuagint into the Latin Vulgate, which was the first Bible for the RCC. The theology embraced by the RCC was Ammillennialism in addition to the church replacing Israel as God's chosen, which as you know, resulted in the awful Crusades in the middle ages.
The fact of the matter is, the above theology did not teach the rapture of the church, keeping it buried from the knowledge and understanding of the members for more than 1,600 years, until the Reformation. After the prining press was invented and Bibles were published in many languages, people were then able to read and to study the Scriptures for themselves, instead of being told by the priests what their interpretations were.
That is the reason why the rapture theology was hidden from everyone for so long.
In connection with JM's point #2, those who belive a rapture of the Church theology can also be assigned to an alleged post trib rapture is completely off the wall from those who were never given the gift of prophecy by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus ministry, while He was here on the earth in His first advent, was to Israel only. Mt.10:5-6 and 15:24. [That does not mean His teachings are not for His Church as well, however there is a good deal of it that is exclusively for Israel and not for the church at all. Such as Mt.24, Mk.13 and Lk.21, which has nothing whatever to do with His Church, that DID NOT EXIST AT THAT TIME, until ten days after He ascended at Pentecost [Acts 2:1-3].
Jesus had and still has, TWO ELECTS, Israel and His Church. For Israel, Isa.42:1 and 45:4. For the Church, Rom.8:33 and 1 Pet.1:2. When He was teaching His disciples in Jn.10:16, "...I have other sheep not of this fold [Those who would be the foundation for His Church], I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be ONE FLOCK AND ONE SHEPHERD." Israel, who remains in denial that Jesus is their Messiah to this day, will continue to do so until nearing the end of the tribulation, as seen in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5, when Jesus returns in His second advent to the earth. When He establishes His kingdom on earth [Rev.20:6], the two sheep folds will become one under the One Shepherd, and His prophecy will be fulfilled.
In another place, Jesus said, "But many who are first [During His ministry and time frame]will be last [Israel], and many who are last will be first [His Church]." Meaning, the Church will be with Him first from the rapture to come, which debunks any idea of a post trib rapture.
In connection with the seven letters to the churches, Jesus reference to it represents but one Church, though seven different conditions are presented together with a time frame in which they occur. Laodicea would theredfore be the condition of the church in the final days of the church age, and is, as you wrote, the seventh and last.
Meanwhile, if you have a look at Rev.3:10, the sixth stage of His one Church] Jesus is going to 'keep you [His Church] from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world, to test those who live on the earth.' Which is in complete harmony with Rev.18:9-10, as well as 1 Thes.1:10 and 5:9.
The rapture of the Church can occur only at one chronological time in prophecy, just before the Antichrist is revealed, as the "he" [Both times] in Dan.9:27, which is the 70th and final 'week' [Seven years!] of God's decree upon Israel. Which is confirmed by Paul in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8. And in Rev.6:1-2, the very first seal [Overview] where the first rider, on the white horse, the Antichrist is revealed, who triggers the tribulation. All three Scriptural locatrions are in complete harmony with each other.
Paul states in 1 Thes.4:15, "ACCORDING TO THE LORD'S OWN WORD..." In his teachings about the Church being CAUGHT UP to meet the Lord IN THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY, in vss 14-18. In his 2nd epistle, in 2:3, and in vs 8, he makes the timing of when the Church will be CAUGHT UP, which will be, JUST BEFORE THE ANTICHRIST IS REVEALED. Since the Antichrist triggers the tribulation, the rapture can only be pre-trib, according to the Scriptures.
As for the 70th week, of seven years, the tribulation, it is divided into two parts; the first 3.5 years is simply referred to as the tribulation, then in the 'midst of the week' [as in Dan.9:27 and Jesus confirmation in Mt.24:15] the Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel [Stop them from their animal sacrificing ceremonies and set up an idol in the temple of God, and is what Jesus called the abomination of desolation], which is called the Great Tribulation as has already been spelled out on this thread previously.
Blessings,
Quasar
JM said:
Hi guys,
If I may, please let me add a few corrections to misunderstandings about the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Let me start with the Scriptural chronology, and take it from there.
The Rapture and End Times Chronology -
The prophetic chronological timing of end times events as outlined in the Bible are as follows:
1. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as Jacob's Trouble.
2. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 'weeks' of years He has decreed upon the entire history of Israel, the length of time involved in the tribulation is revealed, along with the person who will set it off. The antichrist, who will establish a seven year covenant with them. Dan.9:27.
3. Jesus confirmation of Daniel's 70th and final 'week,' consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in His ministry to the 'lost sheep of Israel. Mt.24:15.
4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was established on May 14, 1948.
5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ will be raptured, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. Jn.14:2-4, 28, 1 Thes.4:14-18, Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ through those who are still alive at His return for His Church.
6. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceding the revealing of the antichrist, which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation. 2 Thes.2:3-8, in perfect harmony with Dan.9:27.
7. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is in heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, while the tribulation is taking place and is not heard about again until the wedding with the Lamb [Jesus Christ] takes place with His Church in heaven. Rev.19:7-8.
8. Jesus returns from heaven - with His Church following Him on white horses, and dressed in fine linen, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints, white and clean - in His Second Coming to the earth. Zech.14:4-5, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14.
9. Jesus ends the war of Armageddon, saves the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah [Zech.12:1 , and 'all Israel will be saved' [Rom.11:26]. The antichrist and false prophet along with their armies are defeated and the two of them are thrown into the lake of fire, and their armies are all killed by the sword. Rev.19:20-21.
10. Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:1-3.
11. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those who were martyred during the tribulation. They were not believers in Jesus Christ at the time the tribulation began. Therefore, they do not belong to the Christian Church that was raptured previously. They will be priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years. Rev.20:4-6.
12. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and all the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9.
13. Satan will be released from the Abyss to once again go out to deceive the nations and people as the 1,000 year Kingdom reign of Christ on the earth ends. He will gather millions of people who come against God's people at Jerusalem. But God sends fire from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them and throwing Satan into the lake of fire. Rev.20:10.
14. The second resurrection takes place that consists of all the Godless and wicked and the great white throne is set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgement, and along with death, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, they will be thrown into the lake of fire. Rev.20:11-15.
15. The old heaven and earth passes away and God creates an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem descends from heaven. Rev.21:1.
The rest of chapter 21 alludes to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever.
The above is fully endorsed by the following:
A. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School.
B. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute.
C. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary.
D. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology.
E. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible.
F. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary.
G. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes.
H. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary.
I. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible.
The above theologians represent the Editorial Committee of the 1967 edition of the Scofield Bible.
Others who endorse the rapture theology of the Church are:
Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, James Kennedy, Presbyterian minister, Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Hay, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV minstry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker, Dr. Norbert Lieth, hundreds of thousands of others!
About JM's point #1. The tales that Margeret McDonald and John Darby 'invented' the rapture theology in the mid 19th century is completely false. The rapture of the Church was taught by Jesus, Paul and John. More of that later.
Before the mid 2nd century, the early apostolic church was scattered throughout the world of that time [Mt.26:31], and were without central organization, due to persecution, until the early 4th century, under the Roman Emperor, Constantine, who decreed Christianity the religion of the world, in 325 A.D.
To make a long story shorter, Constantine commissioned Jerome to translate the Greek Septuagint into the Latin Vulgate, which was the first Bible for the RCC. The theology embraced by the RCC was Ammillennialism in addition to the church replacing Israel as God's chosen, which as you know, resulted in the awful Crusades in the middle ages.
The fact of the matter is, the above theology did not teach the rapture of the church, keeping it buried from the knowledge and understanding of the members for more than 1,600 years, until the Reformation. After the prining press was invented and Bibles were published in many languages, people were then able to read and to study the Scriptures for themselves, instead of being told by the priests what their interpretations were.
That is the reason why the rapture theology was hidden from everyone for so long.
In connection with JM's point #2, those who belive a rapture of the Church theology can also be assigned to an alleged post trib rapture is completely off the wall from those who were never given the gift of prophecy by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus ministry, while He was here on the earth in His first advent, was to Israel only. Mt.10:5-6 and 15:24. [That does not mean His teachings are not for His Church as well, however there is a good deal of it that is exclusively for Israel and not for the church at all. Such as Mt.24, Mk.13 and Lk.21, which has nothing whatever to do with His Church, that DID NOT EXIST AT THAT TIME, until ten days after He ascended at Pentecost [Acts 2:1-3].
Jesus had and still has, TWO ELECTS, Israel and His Church. For Israel, Isa.42:1 and 45:4. For the Church, Rom.8:33 and 1 Pet.1:2. When He was teaching His disciples in Jn.10:16, "...I have other sheep not of this fold [Those who would be the foundation for His Church], I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be ONE FLOCK AND ONE SHEPHERD." Israel, who remains in denial that Jesus is their Messiah to this day, will continue to do so until nearing the end of the tribulation, as seen in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5, when Jesus returns in His second advent to the earth. When He establishes His kingdom on earth [Rev.20:6], the two sheep folds will become one under the One Shepherd, and His prophecy will be fulfilled.
In another place, Jesus said, "But many who are first [During His ministry and time frame]will be last [Israel], and many who are last will be first [His Church]." Meaning, the Church will be with Him first from the rapture to come, which debunks any idea of a post trib rapture.
In connection with the seven letters to the churches, Jesus reference to it represents but one Church, though seven different conditions are presented together with a time frame in which they occur. Laodicea would theredfore be the condition of the church in the final days of the church age, and is, as you wrote, the seventh and last.
Meanwhile, if you have a look at Rev.3:10, the sixth stage of His one Church] Jesus is going to 'keep you [His Church] from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world, to test those who live on the earth.' Which is in complete harmony with Rev.18:9-10, as well as 1 Thes.1:10 and 5:9.
The rapture of the Church can occur only at one chronological time in prophecy, just before the Antichrist is revealed, as the "he" [Both times] in Dan.9:27, which is the 70th and final 'week' [Seven years!] of God's decree upon Israel. Which is confirmed by Paul in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8. And in Rev.6:1-2, the very first seal [Overview] where the first rider, on the white horse, the Antichrist is revealed, who triggers the tribulation. All three Scriptural locatrions are in complete harmony with each other.
Paul states in 1 Thes.4:15, "ACCORDING TO THE LORD'S OWN WORD..." In his teachings about the Church being CAUGHT UP to meet the Lord IN THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY, in vss 14-18. In his 2nd epistle, in 2:3, and in vs 8, he makes the timing of when the Church will be CAUGHT UP, which will be, JUST BEFORE THE ANTICHRIST IS REVEALED. Since the Antichrist triggers the tribulation, the rapture can only be pre-trib, according to the Scriptures.
As for the 70th week, of seven years, the tribulation, it is divided into two parts; the first 3.5 years is simply referred to as the tribulation, then in the 'midst of the week' [as in Dan.9:27 and Jesus confirmation in Mt.24:15] the Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel [Stop them from their animal sacrificing ceremonies and set up an idol in the temple of God, and is what Jesus called the abomination of desolation], which is called the Great Tribulation as has already been spelled out on this thread previously.
Blessings,
Quasar
You gotta remove Kennedy from your list, it's simply not true. He's a confessional Presbyterian, probably Amil Historicist. Contact his site, he'll email you back, he has responded to me in the past.
Frank's dad, Anno, did great work with the Annoted Bible in something like 8 vol.
I don't recall ever post that, in fact, I respect and read John Nelson Darby's work all the time. If he says he found it by using a literal reading, then I believe that's what happened. If I ever did post that, I'll retract it, just show me where.
Have you read the ECF's or are you just repeating what someone else has said? They never systemized their beliefs and yes, they were all over the map on eschatology.
I love my pretrib brothers and sisters, I still belief much of what they believe.
Peace,
jm
Thread subject
JM wrote:
>>>Quote:
James Kennedy, Presbyterian minister
You gotta remove Kennedy from your list, it's simply not true. He's a confessional Presbyterian, probably Amil Historicist. Contact his site, he'll email you back, he has responded to me in the past.<<<
Frankly, I've watched him any number of times and always had the impression he was a pre-tribber as all my Presbyterian brothers and sister were whwn I was a member, while living in Seattle, between '34 and '39. If they have changed to Amillennialism, that is a change that has taken place since I was a member of that church. Take him off my list if you know for a fact he is not pre-trib as all the others are. One case makes little difference in my point, does it. In any event, Kennedy is a fine Pastor.
At the Presbyterian Bible Conferences we had at Lake Sammamish was all pre-trib and included guest speakers from Moody Bible Institute, as well as Fuller Theological Insititute, all of whom at the time, were pre-trib.
You continue:
Quote:
A. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School.
Frank's dad, Anno, did great work with the Annoted Bible in something like 8 vol.<<<
A most exhaustive works indeed.
You continue:
>>>About JM's point #1. The tales that Margeret McDonald and John Darby 'invented' the rapture theology in the mid 19th century is completely false. The rapture of the Church was taught by Jesus, Paul and John. More of that later.
I don't recall ever post that, in fact, I respect and read John Nelson Darby's work all the time. If he says he found it by using a literal reading, then I believe that's what happened. If I ever did post that, I'll retract it, just show me where.<<<
No, I didn't say you did, but that is where the major portion of opposition comes from pertaining to the pre-trib rapture, rather than from Mormon origins.
JM continues:
>>>Quote:
In connection with JM's point #2, those who believe a rapture of the Church theology can also be assigned to an alleged post trib rapture is completely off the wall from those who were never given the gift of prophecy by the Holy Spirit.
Have you read the ECF's or are you just repeating what someone else has said? They never systemized their beliefs and yes, they were all over the map on eschatology.
I love my pretrib brothers and sisters, I still belief much of what they believe.
Peace,<<<
I never repeat what someone else said unless it is in the form of a quote. usually always from the Scriptures themselves. Otherwise, my words are my own. There is hardly a single church father who was not resposible for teaching one form of a heresy at one time or another, from the 2nd into the 5th century.
Blessings,
Quasar
JM wrote:
>>>Quote:
James Kennedy, Presbyterian minister
You gotta remove Kennedy from your list, it's simply not true. He's a confessional Presbyterian, probably Amil Historicist. Contact his site, he'll email you back, he has responded to me in the past.<<<
Frankly, I've watched him any number of times and always had the impression he was a pre-tribber as all my Presbyterian brothers and sister were whwn I was a member, while living in Seattle, between '34 and '39. If they have changed to Amillennialism, that is a change that has taken place since I was a member of that church. Take him off my list if you know for a fact he is not pre-trib as all the others are. One case makes little difference in my point, does it. In any event, Kennedy is a fine Pastor.
At the Presbyterian Bible Conferences we had at Lake Sammamish was all pre-trib and included guest speakers from Moody Bible Institute, as well as Fuller Theological Insititute, all of whom at the time, were pre-trib.
You continue:
Quote:
A. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School.
Frank's dad, Anno, did great work with the Annoted Bible in something like 8 vol.<<<
A most exhaustive works indeed.
You continue:
>>>About JM's point #1. The tales that Margeret McDonald and John Darby 'invented' the rapture theology in the mid 19th century is completely false. The rapture of the Church was taught by Jesus, Paul and John. More of that later.
I don't recall ever post that, in fact, I respect and read John Nelson Darby's work all the time. If he says he found it by using a literal reading, then I believe that's what happened. If I ever did post that, I'll retract it, just show me where.<<<
No, I didn't say you did, but that is where the major portion of opposition comes from pertaining to the pre-trib rapture, rather than from Mormon origins.
JM continues:
>>>Quote:
In connection with JM's point #2, those who believe a rapture of the Church theology can also be assigned to an alleged post trib rapture is completely off the wall from those who were never given the gift of prophecy by the Holy Spirit.
Have you read the ECF's or are you just repeating what someone else has said? They never systemized their beliefs and yes, they were all over the map on eschatology.
I love my pretrib brothers and sisters, I still belief much of what they believe.
Peace,<<<
I never repeat what someone else said unless it is in the form of a quote. usually always from the Scriptures themselves. Otherwise, my words are my own. There is hardly a single church father who was not resposible for teaching one form of a heresy at one time or another, from the 2nd into the 5th century.
Blessings,
Quasar
Thread subject
JM
Please delete one of my last post that was accidentally duplicated. I'm sorry, but I don't have any idea how it happened. I'll see if I can successfully delete one of them. I see one of my problems was simply that I had not logged in.
If you just type Anno's Bible into the Yahoo or Google search, you will find several sources for the Anno's Bible.
I am aware of the fact that some of the EFC'S were pre-mil but know of none of them who were pre-trib. That is how the RCC ended up in the some of the theology they did.
Blessings,
Quasar
JM
Please delete one of my last post that was accidentally duplicated. I'm sorry, but I don't have any idea how it happened. I'll see if I can successfully delete one of them. I see one of my problems was simply that I had not logged in.
If you just type Anno's Bible into the Yahoo or Google search, you will find several sources for the Anno's Bible.
I am aware of the fact that some of the EFC'S were pre-mil but know of none of them who were pre-trib. That is how the RCC ended up in the some of the theology they did.
Blessings,
Quasar
:
Vic C.
Member
Re: Thread subject
:smt023Quasar said:Hey Vic,
One of my retirement jobs was a Laundromat I owned for 7 years in San Diego and I'm here to certify to my own skills at using mops!If you weren't so hasty to remove the 'delete' feature, I would be more than happy to spare you such a tedious job. :-D
J
JustifiedByFaith
Guest
What's even crazier is that thier is no indication that a pre-trib rapture was the norm of practice and teaching among the 1st. century believers. It appears that the Apostles expected some trials and times of testing. No wonder Jesus said, "He who endures to the end shall be saved." With God's help and trusting in Him, we will prevail through the fires of the coming hard times. No pain, no gain. No prunning, no fruit. No testing, no patience. :angel: