Bible Study Silence in Heaven?

[LeviR]

TWENTY-FOUR ELDERS

The background is found in 1 Chronicles 24:7-19; 25:6-31; and 26:12-19. In chapter 24, the Levitical priesthood is divided into 24 divisions, according to the schedule of their service: they were officials of the sanctuary and of the house of God. In Chapter 25, the Levitical priests are further divided into 24 divisions, responsible for the worship of the sanctuary, and in particular the music of that worship. In Chapter 26, the Levitical priests are again divided into 24 gatekeepers for the house of God.

They were responsible for worship, in particular for the music in worship. They were also to stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God. As it was with the twenty-four divisions of the priests in the book of Chronicles, so it is with the twenty-four elders in the book of Revelation. They are responsible for worship, in particular for the music in worship; they also stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God.

The twenty-four elders, then, are elders in the heavenly sanctuary of God who are responsible for worship, for the music of worship, and as such they stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God.

We have identified the twenty-four elders that surround the throne as elders, but what is the significance of those elders around the throne? Why are they there? The answer is that the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:4; 5:6; 19:4 are symbolic of the ruling authority in the church. There is a correspondence between the twenty-four elders above and the office of elder below. This means that the government of the church is patterned after heaven itself. As there are elders in heaven above, so there are elders on earth below.

The seven Spirits are wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, reverence, power and fear (respect) of the Lord. The four beasts represent that of the four Gospels being taught in the governing Church here on Earth that is patterned after heaven.

Rev 14:1-5 the 144,000 should not be taken literally. It’s 12 x 12 x 1000. The 12 being the number of completion for God’s people representing the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles and 1000 being a generic number suggesting a great multitude. So 144,000 is a way of saying all of God’s people under the old and new covenant. Virgins are we, the saints of God who have held onto truth. The army that Rev 19:14 speaks of that return with Jesus as he plants his feet on the Mt of Olives to fight the final battle are the angels and we, the saints of God, who were caught up to meet Jesus in the air and return with him, Rev 17:14; Matt 16:27; Jude 1:15, 16; Rev 19:19: Rev 3:4,5; Rev 7:13-15.

If I understand you correctly, the things in heaven point to the things on earth?
My understanding is the opposite. The things on earth point to the reality in heaven.
The things on earth only shadow the true.

 

[RandyK]

The Bible never defines just one antichrist, especially as in the capital A of Antichrist that many try to teach, but says even now there are many and in the end of days will be the last time, 1 John 2:18.

I don't question that there were already antichrists in the days of the Apostle John. The capitalization of Antichrist is the prerogative of translators--regardless, the word "Antichrist" does not imply that it is a proper noun.

However, in context the emphasis is on the fact that one stands out in particular. Though many antichrists come, one in particular is coming--that's how I read it.

2 Beasts are mentioned in Rev 13, but by the end of the book of Revelation we read of 2 figures, the Beast and the False Prophet. These appear to be 2 men, both being "antichrists" as such. But the one focused on primarily appears to be the Beast from the Sea, who fits the description given of the foremost Antichrist in Dan 7.

This Beast is both a man and the system he presides over, having 10 kingdoms with only 7 kings remaining after 3 are disposed of by this "Little Horn," which I think Revelation calls "the Beast." He is the "Antichrist" the Apostle John refers to, and the "Man of Sin" Paul alludes to.

Why the 1st Beast in Rev 13 comes from the *Sea* and the 2nd Beast comes from the *Land* I don't know? Perhaps it is from the particular regions each controls?

Nevertheless, we read of them later in the Revelation that they are 2 men, the Beast and the False Prophet. So one appears to be a political leader whereas the other is a religious leader, creating a requirement to worship the Beast as God among his followers.

In Daniel we see something similar in Nebuchadnezzar setting up an image to be worshiped upon pain of death. This False Prophet apparently sets up a different kind of "Image" to have the Beast, or Antichrist, worshiped as God.

This will be a Luciferian system of political, economic, environmental, military, educational and false religious power that founded in 1534 with its headquarters in Rome, Italy that will sit upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north which is Jerusalem on the same Temple mount of God where the Dome of the Rock is being refurbished for the son of perdition to take its seat.

I do think the 4th Beast of Dan 7 is the Roman Imperial Tradition that has emerged as European Civilization in history. A number of European countries have declared themselves to be "empires" in history, not the least of which were the states presiding over the Holy Roman Empire.

I don't know, however, what "temple" Antichrist "sits in," in accordance with Paul's statement in 2 Thes 2? I remain uncertain of Paul's implication there?

I don't believe a genuine temple will be rebuilt, such as God called for under the Law. So what kind of "Temple of God" will Antichrist sit in? I don't know?

Thanks for your thoughts. I think it's well to consider all of the possibilities before drawing firm conclusions...

 

[RandyK]

The twenty-four elders, then, are elders in the heavenly sanctuary of God who are responsible for worship, for the music of worship, and as such they stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God.

Yes, my brother pointed this out to me some time ago. We know of these priestly divisions established in the time of the Davidic kings. But what they actually are in heaven during John's vision is anybody's guess? They sound as if they are men, but in heaven the population there appears to be largely angels.

We know that like Ezekiel's vision of God's glory, God's holiness is surrounded by and protected by cherubim of judgment. And so, the 4 living creatures appear to be establishing God's holiness on earth in a predatory, judicial way, as by a human court. They have control of the world's health and economy, determined by God's holy standards. The 24 elders preserve a proper worship of God in His presence, as opposed to how mankind on earth live.

Rev 14:1-5 the 144,000 should not be taken literally. It’s 12 x 12 x 1000. The 12 being the number of completion for God’s people representing the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles and 1000 being a generic number suggesting a great multitude. So 144,000 is a way of saying all of God’s people under the old and new covenant. Virgins are we, the saints of God who have held onto truth. The army that Rev 19:14 speaks of that return with Jesus as he plants his feet on the Mt of Olives to fight the final battle are the angels and we, the saints of God, who were caught up to meet Jesus in the air and return with him, Rev 17:14; Matt 16:27; Jude 1:15, 16; Rev 19:19: Rev 3:4,5; Rev 7:13-15.

Yes, Jesus comes back with both angels and resurrected saints. We get that from a number of passages.

But I remain unsure of who the 144,000 are, though we are quite frankly told who they are! What makes it difficult is the fact that Israel is here depicted as "tribes," when Israel's tribes ceased to be of any significance thousands of years ago!

So this appears to reflect, symbolically, the fulfillment of God's original promises to the aboriginal 12 tribes of Israel, when they originally inherited the Promised Land.

The fact these are merely 12,000 from each tribe indicates a remnant of the entire nation fulfills this rule of displaying the fulfillment of God's promises to Israel, which to me indicates they are Christians. And the fact that each tribe is the same size indicates not that they are actual tribes, but the fact that all tribes are equally mixed together in fulfillment to God's promise to all of them.

That is basically where Israel is today, with only a remnant of Israel being Christian, descended from all 12 tribes. In fact, when the 2 kingdoms split in the time of Rehoboam and Jeroboam some from the northern kingdom over time migrated down into the southern kingdom. That's where true temple worship was to be done.

So later, Judah consisted of all 12 tribes in the time it went into Captivity and returned from captivity. And the Jews today are those comprising all 12 tribes.

Anyway, these are things I'm considering.... Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[LeviR]

Yes, my brother pointed this out to me some time ago. We know of these priestly divisions established in the time of the Davidic kings. But what they actually are in heaven during John's vision is anybody's guess? They sound as if they are men, but in heaven the population there appears to be largely angels.

We know that like Ezekiel's vision of God's glory, God's holiness is surrounded by and protected by cherubim of judgment. And so, the 4 living creatures appear to be establishing God's holiness on earth in a predatory, judicial way, as by a human court. They have control of the world's health and economy, determined by God's holy standards. The 24 elders preserve a proper worship of God in His presence, as opposed to how mankind on earth live.

Yes, Jesus comes back with both angels and resurrected saints. We get that from a number of passages.

But I remain unsure of who the 144,000 are, though we are quite frankly told who they are! What makes it difficult is the fact that Israel is here depicted as "tribes," when Israel's tribes ceased to be of any significance thousands of years ago!

So this appears to reflect, symbolically, the fulfillment of God's original promises to the aboriginal 12 tribes of Israel, when they originally inherited the Promised Land.

The fact these are merely 12,000 from each tribe indicates a remnant of the entire nation fulfills this rule of displaying the fulfillment of God's promises to Israel, which to me indicates they are Christians. And the fact that each tribe is the same size indicates not that they are actual tribes, but the fact that all tribes are equally mixed together in fulfillment to God's promise to all of them.

That is basically where Israel is today, with only a remnant of Israel being Christian, descended from all 12 tribes. In fact, when the 2 kingdoms split in the time of Rehoboam and Jeroboam some from the northern kingdom over time migrated down into the southern kingdom. That's where true temple worship was to be done.

So later, Judah consisted of all 12 tribes in the time it went into Captivity and returned from captivity. And the Jews today are those comprising all 12 tribes.

Anyway, these are things I'm considering.... Thank you for your thoughts.

The 144,000 are mortals of the 12 tribes of Israel by whom the restoration of God’s kingdom on earth is to be established.
They are the ones who believe and do not worship the beast and his image. They are the remnant.

God’s kingdom consists of those who have been granted eternal life and those who rule will rule on earth. There are angel-like rulers in heaven and mortal rulers on earth. They both make up the kingdom of God.

This was foreshadowed by God establishing a kingdom in the wilderness by which the angels played a significant part in bring the children into the land. They were operating behind the scenes.
So too it will be again when God establishes His kingdom on earth.
The resurrected and translated ones will be as the angels working behind the scenes in the execution of God’s judgements that will ultimately result in victory for the 144,000 in establishing God’s kingdom on earth.

 

[LeviR]

Opening the first seal:

Rev 6:2 - And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow;and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Each seal contains judgment to be executed by Jesus and his saints in heaven.
But the execution of these judgments come in the form of what takes place on the earth.
The rider of the white horse is not here Jesus but another who is executing God’s judgment on earth against His own people. Jesus is behind the scene.
These judgments were prophecies and are ultimately executed by Jesus and his saints.

 

[RandyK]

The 144,000 are mortals of the 12 tribes of Israel by whom the restoration of God’s kingdom on earth is to be established.
They are the ones who believe and do not worship the beast and his image. They are the remnant.

God’s kingdom consists of those who have been granted eternal life and those who rule will rule on earth. There are angel-like rulers in heaven and mortal rulers on earth. They both make up the kingdom of God.

This was foreshadowed by God establishing a kingdom in the wilderness by which the angels played a significant part in bring the children into the land. They were operating behind the scenes.
So too it will be again when God establishes His kingdom on earth.
The resurrected and translated ones will be as the angels working behind the scenes in the execution of God’s judgements that will ultimately result in victory for the 144,000 in establishing God’s kingdom on earth.

I'm not Pretrib, but you have a reasonable approach to identifying who they are and what they do.

 

[LeviR]

I'm not Pretrib, but you have a reasonable approach to identifying who they are and what they do.

Isa 10:20 - And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

They shall no more put their trust in, and rely upon the Beast in time of trouble. But they shall put their trust in and rely upon the Holy One of Israel in truth .

Staying upon the Beast is symbolize by the woman sitting on the scarlet colored beast for aid and protection . The woman is Israel. And the 144,000 are the remnant who refuse to worship the Beast but rely or stay upon the Lord instead.

 

[RandyK]

Isa 10:20 - And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

They shall no more put their trust in, and rely upon the Beast in time of trouble. But they shall put their trust in and rely upon the Holy One of Israel in truth .

Staying upon the Beast is symbolize by the woman sitting on the scarlet colored beast for aid and protection . The woman is Israel. And the 144,000 are the remnant who refuse to worship the Beast but rely or stay upon the Lord instead.

I personally think the Woman riding the Scarlet Beast to be Rome. But I've heard that the imagery of a Prostitute can fit ancient Israel, as well. I shouldn't think, though, that Israel can in any way fit the Woman in Rev 17, since Israel is incredibly small compared to the Woman described there?

 

[LeviR]

I personally think the Woman riding the Scarlet Beast to be Rome. But I've heard that the imagery of a Prostitute can fit ancient Israel, as well. I shouldn't think, though, that Israel can in any way fit the Woman in Rev 17, since Israel is incredibly small compared to the Woman described there?

Isa 10 speaks of the Assyrian who is the sea Beast in Revelation. He is the rod of God’s anger when he executes God’s judgments upon His people Israel.

 

[for_his_glory]

I suppose it’d be helpful if the cherubim were said to be angels but I can’t find any scripture that says so.
I believe they are symbolic of the resurrected and translated ones.
They were woven on the veil of the tabernacle which represents the entrance into heaven. And they surrounded the mercy seat in heaven.
24 and 4 also represent the encampment of the people around the tabernacle in the wilderness.
And the 4 symbolic banners of the 12 tribes grouped into 4 of 3 were lion, calf, man and eagle.

This is the best I could find with scripture about the cherubim. Hope it helps.

What is a Cherub? The Cherubim in the Bible

The Cherub, also known in the plural form as Cherubim, are symbolical angelic figures repeatedly mentioned in the Bible. Discover the roles of Cherubim in relation to God, the Seraphim, and the biblical stories as we look to their mentions in scripture.

www.christianity.com

 

[for_his_glory]

If I understand you correctly, the things in heaven point to the things on earth?
My understanding is the opposite. The things on earth point to the reality in heaven.
The things on earth only shadow the true.

The things on earth needs to be patterned after the things that are in heaven.

 

[LeviR]

This is the best I could find with scripture about the cherubim. Hope it helps.

What is a Cherub? The Cherubim in the Bible

The Cherub, also known in the plural form as Cherubim, are symbolical angelic figures repeatedly mentioned in the Bible. Discover the roles of Cherubim in relation to God, the Seraphim, and the biblical stories as we look to their mentions in scripture.

www.christianity.com

I think it’s obvious that they are representative figures by the fact of having multiple faces and wings.

 

[LeviR]

The things on earth needs to be patterned after the things that are in heaven.

The things in heaven are the true. The tabernacle on earth, and all therein, is a shadow of the true which is in heaven.
The things not made with hands are the true.
The true kingdom of God is in heaven.

 

[for_his_glory]

However, in context the emphasis is on the fact that one stands out in particular. Though many antichrists come, one in particular is coming--that's how I read it.

2 Beasts are mentioned in Rev 13, but by the end of the book of Revelation we read of 2 figures, the Beast and the False Prophet. These appear to be 2 men, both being "antichrists" as such. But the one focused on primarily appears to be the Beast from the Sea, who fits the description given of the foremost Antichrist in Dan 7.

Rev 13 John saw a beast (beast is often referred to as nations in scripture) rise up out of the sea having seven heads and ten horns and upon his horns ten crowns, (crowns denotes Kings) and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

The beast rises up out of the sea as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15. This beast is the Jesuit Luciferians with their headquarters in the Church of Gesu in Rome that is in close proximity to the Vatican. The Pontifex Maximus (Pope) god king religious system is who Satan gives his seat and authority to. Roman Government had total control from 538 AD to 1798 which equals 1260 years that equal time, times and a half time as once again history will repeat itself in the annihilation of Gods anointed during the end of days.

The seven heads are that of the Babylonian Empire, Medo/Persian Empire, Grecian Empire and Roman Empire in who the ten nations were. The ten horns represent the nations the Roman Empire scattered to when the deadly wound was put upon them, Daniel 7:23-25; Rev 13. The deadly wound came in 1798 when General Berthier of France captured Pope Pius VI, who soon died in captivity in Valence, on August 29, 1799. Seven of these nations are the ancestors of the modern nations of Europe.

These ten nations were the Anglo-Saxons (English), the Franks (French), Suevi (Portuguese), Visigoths (Spanish), Burgundians (Swiss), Alemanni (Germans), Lombards (Italians), Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals in northern Africa. The last three being Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals had already been destroyed by the Roman Empire before their deadly wound came in 1798.

I do think the 4th Beast of Dan 7 is the Roman Imperial Tradition that has emerged as European Civilization in history. A number of European countries have declared themselves to be "empires" in history, not the least of which were the states presiding over the Holy Roman Empire.

These are the four beast of Daniel 7.

Seven remaining nations that still exist today:

Babylonian Empire:
(Iraq) The lion represents the winged lions that guarded the royal places of Babylon.

Medo – Persian Empire:
(Iran) The ribs of the bear are part of the consuming greed that devours the first empire.

Grecian Empire:
(Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt) Four wings of the leopard described the swiftness of this empire that ran from 334-331BC. It wrestled world dominion from Medo-Persia. After the death of Alexander the Great the kingdom was divided into four minor kingdoms that continued as prominent factors in world politics until the Roman Empire gathered it back as one kingdom.

Roman Empire: (little horn, Daniel 8:9-14, 23-27)
(Headquarter in Rome)
Iron represents the stronghold this nation had. Daniel chapter 2 mentions the iron element of this empire that it to will be divided and broken as God will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed.

​

I don't know, however, what "temple" Antichrist "sits in," in accordance with Paul's statement in 2 Thes 2? I remain uncertain of Paul's implication there?

Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem sits on the side of the North where once the Temple of God use to be and is said by some to being refurbished for the son of perdition to take it's literal seat there. I correlated this to Isaiah 14:13 and @ Thessalonians 2:3-4 as I do not believe there will ever be a third Temple ever built.

Here is a website that might interest everyone as I have in the past had communication with John Daniels.

http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/eBooks/VaticanDesignExposed.pdf

 

[for_his_glory]

The things in heaven are the true. The tabernacle on earth, and all therein, is a shadow of the true which is in heaven.
The things not made with hands are the true.
The true kingdom of God is in heaven.

Kingdom of God here on earth

God will not always be in the third heaven as when all things are finished here on earth after the return of Christ God will make new again this present heaven and earth then He will usher down the New Jerusalem (Spiritual Kingdom of God). God will then be with us as the tabernacle of God is with men and He will dwell with us and we with Him forever. For now the kingdom of God is within us as we are made kings and priest of God as we reign with Christ here on earth until the seventh trumpet sounds and then the nations (kingdoms) of this world become the nations (kingdoms) of God and of Christ and He will be our God and we His people forever.

The tabernacle of God within the New Jerusalem is not that which is made by hand as neither is the New Jerusalem. When we are given spiritual bodies (glorified bodies) then we will see all things of God that are spiritual for in our mortal bodies we can not even perceive what the New Jerusalem will look like just as we can not even know what Christ looks like, but know we will be just like Him in our glorified bodies.

Third Heaven - This is where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell plus the very breath of just men dwell as when we die it is that breath that returns back to God. It is called The heaven of heavens, (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4). (1Kings 8:27) The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. The third heaven is beyond the space and stars. Where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God (John 3:13).

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev 5:10 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (We are the Spiritual Kingdom of God on earth)

Rev 11: 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (We are that Spiritual kingdom of God while here on earth as we reign with Him over the nations)

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, my brother pointed this out to me some time ago. We know of these priestly divisions established in the time of the Davidic kings. But what they actually are in heaven during John's vision is anybody's guess? They sound as if they are men, but in heaven the population there appears to be largely angels.

We know that like Ezekiel's vision of God's glory, God's holiness is surrounded by and protected by cherubim of judgment. And so, the 4 living creatures appear to be establishing God's holiness on earth in a predatory, judicial way, as by a human court. They have control of the world's health and economy, determined by God's holy standards. The 24 elders preserve a proper worship of God in His presence, as opposed to how mankind on earth live.

Yes, Jesus comes back with both angels and resurrected saints. We get that from a number of passages.

But I remain unsure of who the 144,000 are, though we are quite frankly told who they are! What makes it difficult is the fact that Israel is here depicted as "tribes," when Israel's tribes ceased to be of any significance thousands of years ago!

So this appears to reflect, symbolically, the fulfillment of God's original promises to the aboriginal 12 tribes of Israel, when they originally inherited the Promised Land.

The fact these are merely 12,000 from each tribe indicates a remnant of the entire nation fulfills this rule of displaying the fulfillment of God's promises to Israel, which to me indicates they are Christians. And the fact that each tribe is the same size indicates not that they are actual tribes, but the fact that all tribes are equally mixed together in fulfillment to God's promise to all of them.

That is basically where Israel is today, with only a remnant of Israel being Christian, descended from all 12 tribes. In fact, when the 2 kingdoms split in the time of Rehoboam and Jeroboam some from the northern kingdom over time migrated down into the southern kingdom. That's where true temple worship was to be done.

So later, Judah consisted of all 12 tribes in the time it went into Captivity and returned from captivity. And the Jews today are those comprising all 12 tribes.

Anyway, these are things I'm considering.... Thank you for your thoughts.

The Elders here on earth are to be patterned after the Elders in heaven which are angels.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, my brother pointed this out to me some time ago. We know of these priestly divisions established in the time of the Davidic kings. But what they actually are in heaven during John's vision is anybody's guess? They sound as if they are men, but in heaven the population there appears to be largely angels.

We know that like Ezekiel's vision of God's glory, God's holiness is surrounded by and protected by cherubim of judgment. And so, the 4 living creatures appear to be establishing God's holiness on earth in a predatory, judicial way, as by a human court. They have control of the world's health and economy, determined by God's holy standards. The 24 elders preserve a proper worship of God in His presence, as opposed to how mankind on earth live.

Yes, Jesus comes back with both angels and resurrected saints. We get that from a number of passages.

But I remain unsure of who the 144,000 are, though we are quite frankly told who they are! What makes it difficult is the fact that Israel is here depicted as "tribes," when Israel's tribes ceased to be of any significance thousands of years ago!

So this appears to reflect, symbolically, the fulfillment of God's original promises to the aboriginal 12 tribes of Israel, when they originally inherited the Promised Land.

The fact these are merely 12,000 from each tribe indicates a remnant of the entire nation fulfills this rule of displaying the fulfillment of God's promises to Israel, which to me indicates they are Christians. And the fact that each tribe is the same size indicates not that they are actual tribes, but the fact that all tribes are equally mixed together in fulfillment to God's promise to all of them.

That is basically where Israel is today, with only a remnant of Israel being Christian, descended from all 12 tribes. In fact, when the 2 kingdoms split in the time of Rehoboam and Jeroboam some from the northern kingdom over time migrated down into the southern kingdom. That's where true temple worship was to be done.

So later, Judah consisted of all 12 tribes in the time it went into Captivity and returned from captivity. And the Jews today are those comprising all 12 tribes.

Anyway, these are things I'm considering.... Thank you for your thoughts.

Rev 19: The army that returns with Jesus is the army of angels being the host of heaven that comes down with Him and not the saints. Genesis 1:1; Deuteronomy 4:19; 33:2; 1 Chronicles 18:18; Nehemiah 9:6; Jeremiah 33:22. John 3:13 makes it very clear that no one has ever ascended up to heaven other than Christ. The only thing that goes back to God when we die is the very breath He gave us that made us a living soul, Genesis 2:7; Ecclesiastics 12:7.

Note: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57; 2 Thessalonians 4:13-18; John 5:28, 29; John 6:40.

These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33; Hosea 5:9, 11;Psalms 78:9-17, 65-67. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

This is the importance of the 144,000 of the house of Israel and their generations unto the end of days. There were those of the old covenant that were faithful to God in keeping all his commandments and repented of their idol worshiping. Their generations who have also come back to Gods grace that are still alive during the seven trumpet sounds will continue to preach to the Jews as it was with the twelve disciples in Matthew 10:6. The generations of the 144,000 that are still alive have the seal of God on them which are the seven Spirits of God as they will have to endure much persecution until the end of days before the return of Jesus.
(Seven Spirits of God are found in Isaiah 11:2 and mentioned in Rev 1:4. Spirit of the Lord, wisdom, understanding, counsel, power, knowledge and fear/respect of the Lord.)

After Solomon's death his son Rehoboam became King and those ten Northern tribes (Israel/Dan/Ephraim) rebelled against King Rehoboam and followed after Jeroboam up North causing a division of the north and south Kingdom. Only the tribe of Judah (Judah) and the tribe of Benjamin (Judah) stayed Loyal to King Rehoboam in the southern Kingdom for they kept Gods commandments as they knew David was the lineage of the promised Messiah as it was prophesied of the prophets of God.

For almost two centuries the two Kingdoms where divided, but a remnant of the ten tribes soon came back to Judah after following Jeroboam as he turned the northern Kingdom into idol worshipers. This is why God divorced them of the northern kingdom, but has left room for them to repent and turn back to Him, Jeremiah 3:6-25; Deuteronomy 29

These ten tribes consist of: Reuben, Simeon, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Manasseh and Ephraim.

 

[for_his_glory]

Opening the first seal:

Rev 6:2 - And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow;and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Each seal contains judgment to be executed by Jesus and his saints in heaven.
But the execution of these judgments come in the form of what takes place on the earth.
The rider of the white horse is not here Jesus but another who is executing God’s judgment on earth against His own people. Jesus is behind the scene.
These judgments were prophecies and are ultimately executed by Jesus and his saints.

This is my understanding of the first four seals.

Revelation 6:1-8:

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

White horse represents a rider with great power and authority as in early wars where Generals would always ride a white horse as they went forth conquering and to conquer. The rider of this white horse is a false Christ as he has a bow, but no arrows which would render this rider in a lesser magnitude of the power of Christ when He comes to conquer and destroys all the abominations on earth: Matthew 24:5, 24; Revelation 19:11-15.

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Red horse symbolizes Global war bringing much bloodshed to the land. The rider on the red horse takes peace from the earth and they should kill one another and there was given unto him a great sword: Matthew 24:6-10; Revelation 19:15

And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Black horse is a symbol of famine as the rider holds a pair of balances in his hands causing much famine which follows after wars. Many will not be able to afford a days wage in order to feed for their families. Instead of coming to God they reach out to the beast out of the earth as they receive the mark of this beast, Rev 13; 1 Kings 8:37-43; Romans 8:34.

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Pale horse is a symbol of sickness and disease that follows after war that causes great famine in the world as many become sick and weak from dehydration and malnutrition and eventually die.

The pale horse riders name is Death. Following Death is Hell which means one that is laid in a grave after they have physically died as you can read in Strong's Exhausted Concordance Hebrew #7585 Greek # 86. Death is not a final destination, but a state of being until Christ returns and all, saint and sinner, will hear the voice of Christ to rise from their graves as some will rise to eternal life and some to eternal damnation, John 5:28, 29, Revelation 20:11-15.

 

[LeviR]

This is my understanding of the first four seals.

Revelation 6:1-8:

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

White horse represents a rider with great power and authority as in early wars where Generals would always ride a white horse as they went forth conquering and to conquer. The rider of this white horse is a false Christ as he has a bow, but no arrows which would render this rider in a lesser magnitude of the power of Christ when He comes to conquer and destroys all the abominations on earth: Matthew 24:5, 24; Revelation 19:11-15.

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Red horse symbolizes Global war bringing much bloodshed to the land. The rider on the red horse takes peace from the earth and they should kill one another and there was given unto him a great sword: Matthew 24:6-10; Revelation 19:15

And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Black horse is a symbol of famine as the rider holds a pair of balances in his hands causing much famine which follows after wars. Many will not be able to afford a days wage in order to feed for their families. Instead of coming to God they reach out to the beast out of the earth as they receive the mark of this beast, Rev 13; 1 Kings 8:37-43; Romans 8:34.

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Pale horse is a symbol of sickness and disease that follows after war that causes great famine in the world as many become sick and weak from dehydration and malnutrition and eventually die.

The pale horse riders name is Death. Following Death is Hell which means one that is laid in a grave after they have physically died as you can read in Strong's Exhausted Concordance Hebrew #7585 Greek # 86. Death is not a final destination, but a state of being until Christ returns and all, saint and sinner, will hear the voice of Christ to rise from their graves as some will rise to eternal life and some to eternal damnation, John 5:28, 29, Revelation 20:11-15.

And all these things are occurring as God’s judgments. And since Jesus and his saints are to execute these judgments, they are seen in heaven by John before they occur. The saints were seen as the 24 elders and 4 living creatures.

 

[RandyK]

Rev 19: The army that returns with Jesus is the army of angels being the host of heaven that comes down with Him and not the saints.

I view the saints as part of what returns with Jesus. The saints wear white garments, indicating they were cleansed of sin and lived in righteousness.

Rev 19.14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

When Jesus comes, he comes with the departed saints...

1 Thes 4.14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

This is the importance of the 144,000 of the house of Israel

Sorry, but I continue to have trouble determining what all of the symbolism surround the 144,000 means? I think what you shared about it is relevant, and do keep all this in mind. I don't tend to take a positioin until I think I have a clear thinking on a matter. It just isn't there yet! ;)