Not sure what you mean by this? What "elders on earth" do you refer to--elders in every individual church?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Bible Study Silence in Heaven?
- Thread starter RandyK
- Start date
While I find that an interesting "coincidence," I think the more literal application of 1260 days to refer to the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign (Dan 7).
I do think the fact the 4th Beast of Dan 7 is Rome is significant, as Rome evolves into Modern Europe. That's where I think the Antichrist will take his seat.
For all I know the "temple of God," where Antichrist may be seated, will be Rome. Likely not, but just sayin.'
Again, my position is that the 7 heads are the heads left over after 3 of the heads are defeated among the 10 horns, or nations in Europe. What nations these "7 heads" are I don't claim to know?
In Rev 17, John is given a riddle, to explain that the Great Prostitute is Rome. John cannot say this explicitly since he would be charged by Rome with sedition. That is why so much of the Revelation is couched in cryptic terms and difficult to understand.
So John is given riddles to show the Church, his readers, that he is referring to Rome. The 7 heads, which we know are literally 7 kings in Europe, are also a picture of 7 historical kingdoms in the bible that Christians would recognize--Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome, the 6th.
Rome is the kingdom that currently "is" in John's day, which would be identified by Christians as Rome. The 7th kingdom would, of course, be the Kingdom of Antichrist, with Antichrist being the 8th, once he assumes power over Europe.
I'm not sure what the "wound of the Beast" is, unless it is the defeat Pagan Rome received when Christ died. Of course, Rome survived until the present day. And Europe is now reverting to its ancient paganism. It's "fatal wound" has been "healed." It "was, is not [in John's day], and is to come."
I have no clue who John Daniels is, but I'll try to take a look. Thanks for sharing your views.
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You are right and more directly, Vatican City who has relationships with every nation on every continent. Rev 18 makes it even more clear within her destruction in the end of days.
The four Empires that have always persecuted God's own are that of the Babylonian Empire, Medo/Persian Empire, Grecian Empire and Roman Empire (mystery Babylon). The ten horns represent the nations the Roman Empire scattered to when the deadly wound was put upon them, Daniel 7:23-25; Rev 13:3. The deadly wound came in 1798 when General Berthier of France, who made his entrance into Rome, abolished the Roman government and established a secular one and captured Pope Pius VI, who soon died in captivity in Valence, on August 29, 1799. In 1801 Napoleon made an agreement with Pope Pius II establishing Napoleon s Organic Articles of granting the Tribunal and the Corps legislative partial control of the concordat in order to help the state monitor any politically harmful Catholic or Protestant movements or activities. The wound was largely healed in 1929 when Mussolini gave the Vatican back to Pope Pius XI and established it as a country in it's own right in the Lateran Treaty.
I have to respectfully disagree with this. Isaiah 10:5-19 is about judgement on arrogant Assyria as it starts out saying, O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
The beast rises up out of the sea as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15. This beast is the Jesuit Luciferian system comprised of economic, political, militant, environmental and a false religious system with their headquarters in the Church of Gesu in Rome that is in close proximity to the Vatican and also know to Catholics as the Holy See. The Pontifex Maximus god king religious system is who Satan gives his seat and authority to working through this worldly ruling power. Rome had total control from 538 AD to 1798 which equals 1260 years that equal time, times and a half time as once again history will repeat itself in the annihilation of Gods anointed during the time of the son of perdition when he takes his throne in the Holy City Jerusalem claiming he is God, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
I can agree with that, especially when some are different looking for whatever purpose God has for them.
The Assyrian is the leader. The king of the north. Gog. On him are the 7 heads and 10 horns. And the little horn that comes up is another king. A king of Israel. And they, all together will demand worship of the Jews. But only a remnant, the 144,000 will be sealed with their Fathers name on their foreheads. The others will bare the mark of the beast.
The little horn of Dan 7 is the Antichrist, and will most certainly be a Jew. And he will be in cohort on the beast.
1Sa 8:10 - So Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who asked him for a king.
1Sa 8:11 - And he said, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and somewill run before his chariots.
1Sa 8:12 - “He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots.
1Sa 8:13 - “He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers.
1Sa 8:14 - “And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants.
1Sa 8:15 - “He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants.
1Sa 8:16 - “And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men,[fn] and your donkeys, and put them to his work.
1Sa 8:17 - “He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants.
1Sa 8:18 - “And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the LORD will not hear you in that day.”
All the prophets from Moses on down have spoken of what is to befall God’s people in the latter days or last days.
1Sa 8:10 - So Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who asked him for a king.
All the prophets from Moses on down have spoken of what is to befall God’s people in the latter days or last days.
Sorry, I should have said the tabernacle on earth
I'm sorry I can not see it the way you do as I can only see this as being the evil principalities in the world that has always been, but on a greater scale throughout the years as this world waxes worse.
Israel is still choosing kings for themselves. They are still therefore rejecting God as their King.
And it is promised that they will cry out in that day because of the king they chose, and God will not hear them in that day.
If they accept God as their King they have no one to fear. 10 would chase 1,000.
What happens when they choose a king that denies the Father altogether. And claims for himself to be God.
I agree that the saints come back with Him, but only after being caught up in the clouds to meet Him in the air.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Let me start here with these three passages from scripture that show it is only our breath that returns back to God when we physically die as no one has ever ascended up to heaven after they died. It's only our breath/spirit that returns back to God.
Continuing with these scriptures below, especially 1Thessalonians 4:14, will God bring with him. When Christ returns with the clouds and His army of angels from heaven, Jesus then sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather all His own to Him. Jesus will raise the dead first as even those who pierced Him will see Him coming with the clouds and then we, which are still alive at His coming, will be changed and then we are all caught up to the clouds to meet Jesus in the air as we return with Him in our new glorified bodies in which we do not know what we will be like, other than we will be like Christ in His glorified body.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
The Elders, Deacons, bishops being basically those of the church here on earth as overseers of the assembling. The qualifications are found in 1Timothy 3:2-7 and Titus 1:5-8.
I have explained all of this within this thread. It takes a lot of studying by first praying and asking the Holy Spirit teach you then taking the book of Revelation and all these visions John was given cross referencing prophecy between the OT and NT and studying the history of all four Empires. Been at it for over forty years now and always learning something I did not see before. This is why I have to take it word by word, verse by verse and chapter by chapter. It's really not that hard to understand the book of Revelation if you just take your time studying all that is within this book.
Have you ever considered the war of Gog and Magog is the same as the battle of Armageddon as we study Ezekiel 38:1-6 which actually names all who will come against Israel in the end of days being Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, Persia, Ethiopia, Libya, Gomer and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands. In this battle, this Gog-Magog War, this Armageddon battle, is a different type of battle from any other ones found in scripture including the king of the north and south in Daniel 11.
1Samuel 8:1-9 Israel demands of Samuel to have a king over them.The little horn of Dan 7 is the Antichrist, and will most certainly be a Jew. And he will be in cohort on the beast.
1Sa 8:10 - So Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who asked him for a king.
1Sa 8:11 - And he said, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and somewill run before his chariots.
1Sa 8:12 - “He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots.
1Sa 8:13 - “He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers.
1Sa 8:14 - “And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants.
1Sa 8:15 - “He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants.
1Sa 8:16 - “And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men,[fn] and your donkeys, and put them to his work.
1Sa 8:17 - “He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants.
1Sa 8:18 - “And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the LORD will not hear you in that day.”
All the prophets from Moses on down have spoken of what is to befall God’s people in the latter days or last days.
1 Samuel 8:10-18 Samuel gives Israel a warning against having a king over them
1 Samuel 8:19-22 The Lord grants Israel's request for a king.
1 Samuel 9:1-27 Saul was chosen to be king over Israel, but never anointed by God as God gave that anointing to David in Chapter 16.
The last antichrist/son of perdition/ beast out of the earth is not a Jew, but comes from the revived Roman Empire.
Who says that Israel today is looking for a king?
The Jewish people today are organized as a decentralized network of communities with multiple centers of power as most have rejected Jesus as their Messiah and God is still waiting for the Jews to turn back to Him as some have.
reddogs
Member
When Christ leaves heaven with all His angels who constantly sing praises and other forms of worship, its going to get mighty quite.Today, on another forum, someone asked the question:
"I have wondered about that when the seventh seal is opened and there’s silence in Heaven for half an hour, what could that possibly mean? What would be the reason for that? Is there any possible theory what that might be?"
I answered (only for your consideration):
"Oh, I'd love to hear the answers to this one? I've wondered this all my life! God has answered many of my questions. I'm not sure He's given me much on this one?
Off the top of my head I might say that the half hour is simply a pause. It means something momentous is about to happen.
The main problems I see with people interpreting Revelation is that they think the sequence of events listed is a literal schedule of events, like an exact choreography of events to happen in future history in exact order. I don't find that to be the case at all.
In my view, we must read it like quick sketches using known symbols to represent various facets of Christ's 2nd Coming. Instead of seeing succeeding visions as a chronology of events we should see them as a multiplicity of separate visions, each of which has its own chronological sequence and picture of events surrounding Christ's Coming.
The half hour in heaven is not a literal half hour perhaps? It may just be the vision's way of saying the curtains came down while the props are being shifted for the next scene, none of which have to express a particular order of events in the play.
Each scene may show something different, and several of the scenes may be talking about the same historical time period. There may be flashbacks or prolepsis (future events viewed as if they are happening now).
So in view of this, I see the half hour in heaven as being like the curtains coming down for a brief interlude--an intermission. It is not a real event, but only a prop indicating something about the event, namely an emphasis on the importance heaven holds for the upcoming events.
It is valuable as a prop, but not symbolizing an actual historical reality. It is God's way of saying, the coming of Christ is near and of critical importance to earth!
So we need to be flexible when reading the book of Revelation. The visions are designed to instruct us in watchfulness, alertneses, and attentiveness to moral/spiritual issues that concern the Church in the NT era, particularly as we approach final issues in our lives. Just as our individual lives have critical junctures that determine our eternal future so the earth will have critical junctures in which its history will be settled for all time.
Normally, I try to link passages like this to other precedents in other places in the Bible. I'm not sure where to look for this one?
Now as for the time, 'half an hour' is a week in literal time, because 1 day equals a year in prophetic time. So 1 hour is a month and 'half an hour' is a week.
Notice how these verses showing 'one hour' fit together...
Revelation 17:12
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Revelation 18:10
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Revelation 18:17
For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
I have trouble assigning a literal time period as a "prophetic time period" to "half an hour." As I said, I attribute it not to a literal time period, but rather, to the "theatrical production" that is being used to draw attention to approaching history.
If an actor takes a break during the showing of a "play," his rest break is not part of the "play!" In this particular case, however, the actor taking a break may be viewed in the "play" itself, but only as a "behind the scenes" portion of the showing.
For example, if we see a play depicting the final period in history, we may see the curtain come down in the middle of the play for an intermission. The curtain coming down depicts nothing with respect to the history being presented, but only with respect to the showing of the play.
The "curtain" is relatively unimportant with respect to the history, therefore, but only as a dramatic effect to show the importance of the play itself and the need to take a rest break to see the last half of the show.
In the same way, the Revelation begins with a portrayal of the Throne of God. This may have little to do with portraying the final history of the age, but may only set the stage for creatiing a dramatic effect for what follows. It is like setting up the props for a theatrical production, a kind of "initial scene" in the Play, setting the background for the story.
The blowing of the Trumpets may not be a chronology of the history it represents at all, but only a theatrical portrayal of events about to unfold in the play. The Trumpets may be only be a dramatic announcement of judgments to come and have no more signficance than as props in a play.
The order of the announcement is different from the order of events it is announcing! When shots are fired at a military funeral, the number of shots does not represent how many times the soldier died! ;) The number of Trumpets blown to depict coming judgment may be portraying 7 aspects to the coming judgment, and not how many judgments will take place in succession, separately! We should not confuse the announcement with the history it represents.
I think the entire Revelation is a kind of theatrical construction not to give an exact chronology and organization of events, but rather, to show how important it is for us to consider the history it represents. Trumpets are given a particular number and order, but this may only be part of the theatrical production and use of props.
The Trumpets are making an ordered list of events in a kind of dramatic crescendo. They are not the chrononlogical order of the events themselves.
The Producer of this "Play" can arrange how this final "Act" in history is portrayed. He can use it as a puzzle to enable clever people to figure out the order and chronology of the history, and predict who the future characters will be? Or, he can simply make announcements of important prophetic matters using the tools and props of the stage for dramatic effect. To focus too much on the props being used, and the order they are presented in, may obscure the message.
I could be wrong, but I think the order of the theatrical production is irrelevant with respect to the exact order of the history it represents. There are a number of visions in the production of the Vision, and their arrangement is the option of the Producer, without concern for divulging secrets valuable to those who must navigate its precise history.
It seems more designed to produce just enough history to emphasize important moral and spiritual concerns. They are snapshots and soundbites, rather than a preview with exact scenes replete with spoilers!
This portrayal is in part camouflaged to speak to those with spiritual insight, who live right because it is right, and not because they guess what is coming next. This is not a crystal ball reading, but a prophetic declaration of coming judgment.
We need to stay alert. After all, that's the immediate effect of a trumpet blast! And its equally impactful when we come to the intermission and the curtains temporarily come down. ;)
This is purely a warning of coming judgment to the world. The symbols used are fascinating because they are words God chose to use to depict the final scene in world history. But we must recognize that they are props and symbols, and that the history they portray will have its own unveiling.
As such, I think every word used is important. The fact a "trumpet" is used as the symbol making a dramatic announcement is less important than the judgment it is calling attention to.
We should not confuse the "play's" production with the history it is representing. The fact an intermission takes place in the middle of the play is hardly relevant except as a tool to draw intention to the last half of the play, and to prepare the viewers for the final scenes.
That's what I think this "half hour" may refer to. It isn't a piece of the "historical puzzle" to be solved, chronologically. Rather, it is a theatrical portrayal of the need to get ready for the final scene.
Israel’s Prime Minister is the king of Israel. He is king because Israel rejects God as their King.
King and emperor are monarchs that are an inherited title. Prime Minister is only the head of the government, not the head of the state.
Hoshea was the last king of Israel from c. 732-724 BC. He became king through a conspiracy in which his predecessor Pekah was killed. 2Kings 15:30; 17:1-6.