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Pope: Other Christian Denominations Not True Churches

aLoneVoice said:
Ultimately - it really doesn't matter. My salvation, sancitification, justification, righteousness, is not dependant upon the Roman Catholic Church (a denomination) - it depends on the Work of Jesus Christ and God Almighty.

Not a fallable person dressed in 'fancy' clothes who will die!

Rhetoric without understanding. Perhaps you might learn something if you follow lovely's lead and listen rather than just shoot off your keyboard. She does not agree but attempts to understand our perspective. nonsense does nothing to win us over if you think we are among the damned.

I don't depend on the Pope for my salvation. He does not save me. That is nonsense based on prejudice.
 
lovely said:
AHIMSA and Thess,

Thanks to you both for explaining it more clearly, and for the link, Thess. I do understand it more clearly now, and I thank the two of you for that, but I still find myself in firm disagreement about the matter. I guess that's because I'm not part of the big 'C' Catholic Church, but rather the little 'c' catholic Church. :wink: The Lord bless you both.

You are welcome.
 
thessalonian said:
Rhetoric without understanding. Perhaps you might learn something if you follow lovely's lead and listen rather than just shoot off your keyboard. She does not agree but attempts to understand our perspective. nonsense does nothing to win us over if you think we are among the damned.

I don't depend on the Pope for my salvation. He does not save me. That is nonsense based on prejudice.

Thess - you have clearly stated to me and the rest of this board that you are not interested in learning. You have made it very clear you are standing by your position regardless of what is presented to you.

Therefore, I see no reason to try to 'win you over'. Ultimately you will be convicted by the Holy Spirit not me.
 
aLoneVoice said:
Thess - you have clearly stated to me and the rest of this board that you are not interested in learning. You have made it very clear you are standing by your position regardless of what is presented to you.

Therefore, I see no reason to try to 'win you over'. Ultimately you will be convicted by the Holy Spirit not me.

I have not clearly stated I won't learn from anyone. I in fact weigh the truth of all things as well as assess the error. However this has nothing to do with your remarks which show that you are clearly closed to the document in question and to understanding what Catholicism teaches whether you agree with it or not. That is not about me. It is about you who claim to be open.
 
RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE
by Rebecca A. Sexton
Former Catholics For Christ

Anyone who opposes Roman Catholicism is immediately labeled as a bigot, intolerant of other religions or a hate-monger. These false accusations are slung by a system whose own fetters of intolerance and bigotry has choked out the freest of nations. When we talk of freedom, we mean the self-government of the people, by the people, for the people in all civil affairs. When we talk of liberty of conscience, we mean that every man shall be permitted to worship God as his own personal convictions dictate. But when Catholicism speaks of freedom, she means the freedom of the papacy to govern the world through the pope and his agents, under the guise of an unscriptural unity. Pope Pius IX states that he has "...full power over the whole world, both in ecclesiastical and civil affairs", and to not accept this is impious and heretical. When Catholicism speaks of liberty of conscience she means "the right to embrace, profess and practice the Catholic religion."

The first Amendment reads:
  • "Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peacefully to assemble."
What a sharp contrast there is between our constitution and Pope Leo XIII (1903) in Libertas:
  • "It is not lawful to demand, to defend, or to grant unconditional freedom of thought or speech, or writing, or religion, as if these were so many rights given by nature to man."
These two statements side by side puts American Catholics in the dilemma of holding two conflicting ideologies simultaneously (in the book 1984 by George Orwell this is labeled "double think").

In Vicars of Christ: The Dark Side of the Papacy, Peter De Rosa, on pages 150-151, recognizes this dilemma:
  • "In the state (US), a Catholic rejoices in openness, complete freedom of worship, democracy. He takes it for granted that freedom leads to a deepening of the truth. He is used to his leaders having to present themselves for his approval. He can vote them in; he can vote them out. He demands press conferences, freedom of information, an unfettered press that is like a second government. In the church, a Catholic has to put up with total secrecy and lack of accountability. There are no choices, no elections. No bishop or pope is, as far as he is concerned, voted in or out. He has to accept what he is given. In the church, there are no press conferences, no checks and balances, no explanations. The control from the top is absolute ["Absolute power corrupts absolutely"]. The impression given is that freedom and discussion lead to the dilution of truth."
Pope John Paul II parades around the world as a champion of freedom and truth for everyone, that is everyone except those in his own Romish system. Theologians such as Kung and Curran are silenced and their work suppressed because they dared to challenge Rome’s doctrine. Hans Kung, a Catholic theologian and professor of history denied the doctrine of infallibility on the grounds that history proved otherwise. If this man had some historical evidence, would it not be fair to all the people to openly deal with those historical facts rather than coming to the conclusion that the pope is infallible because he said so? When it comes to impartiality and fairness in all such matters, the advantage is on the side of the Protestant. He appeals to reason (Isaiah 1:18) and examines history for himself and is not afraid to weigh both sides of an argument, exercising his own intelligent judgment in separating right from wrong (Hebrews 5:13-14), truth from falsehood. But the Catholic is not to employ their individual reason or judgment to examine for themselves, but are to be content to accept whatsoever is announced by ecclesiastical "authority". They are told that they cannot interpret scripture. We were on the internet and had joined the Catholic chat. We decided not to say anything personal, but only to quote scripture verses. Diane typed in 1 Timothy 4:1:
  • "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth."
The response we received was "That’s your interpretation, Di." They didn’t realize that Diane did not interpret anything. They responded as they were taught, unaware that they had actually interpreted I Timothy themselves by understanding that this scripture was rebuking Catholicism for forbidding them to eat meat and forbidding priests to marry, as doctrines of devils. A little conviction maybe? Needless to say, we were banned for quoting scriptures on the Catholic chat. They claim they are for religious freedom, but only as long as it doesn’t interfere with their unscriptural concepts. But isn’t that what freedom is about? The freedom to disagree? If you go to the Bible 1611 chat room, they will discuss anything openly and honestly, even criticism against themselves and are not afraid to answer for the faith they hold. What a difference in spirit! Poor education has left its mark on our society leaving most Americans unaware of Rome’s continuing agenda to make the people a mere tool of a demanding hierarchy, "an imperious whorish woman" (Ezekiel 16:30), whose professions of moderation and liberty are deluding and insincere. It has rightly been said:
  • "Rome in the minority is a lamb. Rome as an equal is a fox. Rome in the majority is a tiger."
Here in Protestant America the Roman Catholic church has the same freedoms as every other church, making her an equal. Therefore she must be clever as a fox. She will use American soil to build her church yet desires to lay the foundation to destroy the religious liberty that afforded her that very right. When the facts of history are examined Protestants stand forth clearly not as bigots, but rather as the real champions of religious and political liberty. It was Protestants who founded a nation built on biblical principles. "...where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Corinthians 3: 17). On the other hand, Catholicism has maintained a tyrannical, suppressive government to the point of putting to death anyone who dared to disagree with her. Let’s take a look at some of the thoughts on religious freedom that have been expressed by different Catholic writers throughout history, writers, may I add, that Catholicism has sanctioned. One such man is "St." Thomas Aquinas who states in his Summa Theologica, Vol.IV, page 90:
  • "Though heretics must not be tolerated because they deserve it, we must bear with them, till, by a second admonition, they may be brought back to the faith of the church. But those who, after a second admonition, remain obstinate in their errors, must not only be excommunicated, but they must be delivered to the secular power to be exterminated."
And again:
  • "So far as heretics are concerned, heresy is a sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death" (Vol. II, 154).
In the official Jesuit organ, Civilta Cattolica, published in Rome in April of 1948 we read:
  • "The Roman Catholic Church, convinced through its divine prerogatives, of being the only true church, must demand the right of freedom for herself alone, because such a right can only be possessed by truth, never by error. As for other religions, the Church will certainly never draw the sword [although she has forced the civil arm to do so], but she will require that by legitimate means they shall NOT BE ALLOWED TO PROPAGATE FALSE DOCTRINE. Consequently, in a state where the majority of people are Catholic, the Church will require that legal existence be denied to error, and that if religious minorities actually exist, they shall have only a de facto existence without opportunity to spread their beliefs...In some countries Catholics will be obliged to ask full religious freedom for all, resigned at being forced to cohabit where they alone should rightfully be allowed to live. But in doing this the Church does not renounce her thesis which remains the most imperative of her laws, but merely adapts herself to de facto conditions which must be taken into account in practical affairs...The Church cannot blush for her own want of tolerance as she asserts it in principle and applies it in practice." (Emphasis mine)
We receive many letters from Catholics who insist that what we write is hate mail. One writer (V.K. of Bowling Green) writes, "I see Pat Robertson and Robert Sungenis are soundly reproving FCFC. Evidently Protestantism and Catholicism are united in disapproval of anti-Catholic ministries". This is quite disturbing, to think that our "Christian brothers" are joining with the Whore of Babylon to take away our freedom to speak what our conscience dictates. This is nothing short of a subtle inquisition. For the sake of "unity" should we forfeit our rights of free press, free speech, the freedom to speak out against lies? Why would Pat Robertson join with Catholicism to put an end to abortion, yet he will not stand against their idolatry or blasphemy? Sin is sin, whether it be physical murder, or spiritual murder. Will we eventually be persecuted like those who live in Catholic controlled countries such as Brazil, Latin America, the Philippines and Mexico? Remember, it was as recent as Feb.20, 1994 that the Denver Post reported that:
  • "An estimated 15,000 people have been expelled, sometimes at the point of a gun, from their homes and lands because of the religion they practice...The ‘expulsados’ are evangelicals and other protestants...who were thrown out of their communities by local authorities who are Catholics."
This is happening now in Mexico; as we stated in our previous issues, "one woman’s house was torched and she was shot in the face with a shotgun when she tried to rescue her children. She escaped through a corn field to another Christian’s house who took her three hours on foot to a hospital. Her children were found later either dead in the fire or mutilated by machete blows. When she recovered, she was forced to join a slum camp with thousands of other Christians whose homes had also been confiscated by their Roman Catholic attackers." Is this what Catholicism calls "freedom"? Here’s how Rome really feels about freedom of worship regardless of the "make them feel good" speeches by the Pope.
  • "Heretics may be not only excommunicated, but also justly put to death" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. XIV, 768).

    "Protestantism of every form has not, and never can have, any rights where Catholicity is triumphant" (Bronson’s Review).

    "Non-Catholic's methods of worshipping God must be branded counterfeit" (Living Our Faith, Flynn, Loretto, and Simon, a widely used high school textbook, 247).

    "In themselves all forms of Protestantism are unjustified. They should not exist" (America, January 4, 1941).

    "The true (Roman Catholic) Church can tolerate no strange churches besides herself" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. XIV, 766).

    "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that every being should be subject to the Roman Pontiff" (Pope Boniface VIII, Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol.XV, 126).

    "No Catholic may positively and unconditionally approve of the separation of church and state" (Msgr. O’Toole, Catholic University of America, 1939).

    "The pope is the supreme judge, even of civil laws, and is incapable of being under any true obligation to them" (Civilta Cattolica).

    "Individual liberty in reality is only a deadly anarchy" (Pope Pius XII, April 6, 1951).

    "Gregory XVI, in Mirari vos of August 1832, described liberty of conscience as a mad opinion. Religious liberty was said to flow from ‘the most fetid fount of indifferentism’. He condemned freedoms of worship, the press, assembly and education as a filthy sewer full of ‘heretical vomit’" (Vicars of Christ, Peter De Rosa, 146).

    "In 1520, Leo X condemned Luther for daring to say that burning heretics is against the will of God. Gregory XIII commemorated with joy the Massacre of St. Bartholomew on the night of 24 August 1572 when thousands of Huguenot Protestants died. Clement VIII attacked the Edict of Nantes in 1598 because it gave equality of citizenship to all, regardless of their religion. The Edict was revoked in 1685 to the church’s delight: within three years, fifty thousand Protestant families left France, scattered further abroad, said Voltaire, than even the Jews. Innocent X had meanwhile condemned the Peace of Westphalia for daring to grant toleration to all citizens, regardless of their religion or lack of it. In every instance and over centuries, the Catholic church proudly proclaimed its dogma of religious intolerance" (Vicars of Christ, Peter De Rosa, 145).

    "All Catholics, therefore, are bound to accept the Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius IX" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol.14).
In case some of our readers are unfamiliar with the Syllabus of Errors, these are just a few of the beliefs that Catholics are "bound to accept":
  • 15. "No man is free to embrace and profess that religion which he believes to be true, guided by the light of reason." 17. "The eternal salvation of any out of the true church of Christ is not even to be hoped for." 24. "The Church has the power of employing force and (of exercising) direct and indirect temporal power." 42. "In legal conflict between Powers (Civil and Ecclesiastical) the Ecclesiastical Law prevails." 57. "Philosophical principles, moral science, and civil laws may and must be made to bend to divine and Ecclesiastical authority."
There is enough evidence from these quotes alone to prove that Catholicism does not tolerate religious freedom. How can a Catholic be bound by the Syllabus and yet be able to sign this ecumenical agreement? It is an obvious contradiction. Just listen to the agreement that Catholics and Evangelical Christians signed, #33, keeping in mind that their system precludes any unity with non-Catholics:
  • "Religious freedom is itself grounded in and is a product of religious faith, as is evident in the history of Baptists and others in this country. Today we rejoice together that the Roman Catholic Church - as affirmed by the Second Vatican council and boldly exemplified in the ministry of John Paul II - is strongly committed to religious freedom and consequently, to the defense of all human rights..."
As I pointed out earlier, Pope John Paul II doesn’t allow freedom within his own church, so why should we trust that he is sincere when he cries for freedom for the world? And you will notice that the Pope’s signature is not on the ecumenical agreement signed by Pat Robertson, Chuck Colson, et al. Why not? Because he has no intentions of following such a document. Vatican II reaffirmed all the anathemas of Trent, but you don’t see that in their drawn-up document. They seem either unable or unwilling to understand how completely their freedom would be forfeited by a compliance with the requirements of this ecclesiastical system. Let me sum up the this article with a quote from Paul Blanshard:
  • "The same pope who appoints every bishop and cardinal in the United States also appoints every bishop and cardinal in Spain. The same pope who permits American bishops to declare in the United States that they favor the separation of Church and State in this non-Catholic country encourages his Spanish bishops to pursue a directly opposite policy in Catholic Spain. It is the Vatican and the Franco government that jointly deny to all Protestant churches and Jewish synagogues those liberties which leaders of the church in the United States profess to believe in. Between them they have abolished both political and religious democracy by a union of church and state which is the pluperfect negation of American principles" (Pamphlet, Ecclesiastical Justice in Spain).
SUMMATION

Please do not be deceived into believing that the Roman Catholic Church has changed its stand on this issue of being the only true spiritual authority in the entire world. The Vatican is only pretending to be tolerant of religious exercise, until the time comes when she can safely and effectively rule supremely in matters, both temporal and spiritual.

Remember, also, that this Pope, John Paul II, who authorized this Concordat is the same Pope who reinstated the Office of the Defender of the Faith [the old Office of the Inquisition]. The only reason that he reinstated this office, after 150 years, is that he intends to use it again! In NEWS1052, "Seminar Notes: House of Theosophy", we report that the New World Order Plan calls for the Roman Catholic Pope to be the supreme spiritual leader of the New World Order Religion. This Plan places the Pope as the False Prophet of Revelation 13.

Do not be deceived. "Test the spirits", to see if they come from God, especially at this time, the End of the Age. Be wary, alert, and walk close to God.


Retrieved from http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/RC112.htm
 
I just saw a thread about this on another forum I participate on, and the link they gave talked about how the Pope reprimanded the Protestant churches for not recognizing the primacy of the Pope.

I'll say what I said there:

--------------------------
That's a hoot. I could just imagine the new baptism recital for "orthodox-reformed protestants": I baptise you in name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Pope.

LOL.
---------------------------

So do we honor Peter's tradition over Jesus'? Is Peter the way to salvation? Just as water baptism is not necessary neither is following the Pope in his tradition that he represents the only Church of Peter (based on the interpretation of "on this rock I will build my Church").

~Josh
 
cybershark5886 said:
So do we honor Peter's tradition over Jesus'? Is Peter the way to salvation? Just as water baptism is not necessary neither is following the Pope in his tradition that he represents the only Church of Peter (based on the interpretation of "on this rock I will build my Church").

~Josh

Why the need for the "either/or"?

Which Catholic teaching states we do away with Jesus by honoring Jesus' decision to make Peter the Rock upon which He built His Church? By following the leadership in the community, did the Christians of 50 AD do away with Jesus???

We follow Christ in the manner set forth by our "elders", the Pope being the leader of these elders. Is this so difficult to comprehend for Protestants? Have they done away with leadership in THEIR communities? By following a pastor's lead, does this mean the Protestant is no longer following Christ?

Regards
 
Do not misunderstand that Vaticans statements. They are saying protestants are going to hell. Let me attempt to demonstrate.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... es_en.html

THIRD QUESTION

Why was the expression “subsists in†adopted instead of the simple word “is�
...
“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation."

First, notice the term "mystery of salvation." The issue absolutely speaks of salvation. Now the article speaks of separated Churches who "suffer defects" but are not deprived of salvation. This is not the protestant Church. This is clear from the 4th question. I will quote below.

FOURTH QUESTION

Why does the Second Vatican Council use the term “Church†in reference to the oriental Churches separated from full communion with the Catholic Church?

RESPONSE

The Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term. “Because these Churches, although separated, have true sacraments and above all – because of the apostolic succession – the priesthood and the Eucharist, by means of which they remain linked to us by very close bondsâ€Â[13], they merit the title of “particular or local Churchesâ€Â[14], and are called sister Churches of the particular Catholic Churches.[15]

“It is through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches that the Church of God is built up and grows in statureâ€Â.[16] However, since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches.[17]

On the other hand, because of the division between Christians, the fullness of universality, which is proper to the Church governed by the Successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him, is not fully realised in history.
So if you follow what is being said, the Orthodox Churches have salvation, even thought there are "defects" these other "separated" Churches are still churches. The "oriental" Churches (IE Russian or Greek Orthodox) have "constitutative elements" but are missing one certain "constitutive element." They do not recognize the grandiose claims of pontificus maximus.

Now, it has been said by those on this BB who adore Rome that this issue is mere "ecclesiology." That is nice of those who made the false claim that this is mere ecclesiology to water down the Vaticans statements. Nevertheless, do not be deceived, the issue is salvation. Those who write for pontificus maximus in the article are connecting the terms "mystery of salvation" and "constitutive element." What else can the phrase "mystery of salvation" mean? If you are not in the "Church" there is no salvation according to grandiose claims of Rome.

Now pay close attention to what is being said about the Churches of the Reformation (protestants) below.

FIFTH QUESTION

Why do the texts of the Council and those of the Magisterium since the Council not use the title of “Church†with regard to those Christian Communities born out of the Reformation of the sixteenth century?

RESPONSE

According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery[19] cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called “Churches†in the proper sense.

Rome has correctly stated that protestants do not have a "sacramental priesthood." Many protestants have a doctrine called "the priesthood of all believers." While some protestant denominations do have sacramental language, some even call communion the eucharist, nevertheless, we are generally not sacramental. Grace does not come through the eucharist in much of protestant theology.

Because protestants do not have a sacramental priesthood, we do not partake in the "integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery." Notice the repitition of the terms "integral" and "mystery" that are found above with reference to salvation and the church.

If you dont understand the above let me make it clear. The Pontificus Maximus (the pope) is making claims that all protestants are going to hell. But for those of you who are protestant like me, I ask you not to fear the heretical ramblings of Rome, but to place your faith in the one who truly dispenses salvation, the Lord Jesus Christ. Remember the word of Paul:

Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not of works, that no man should glory.

Salvation is not the gift of Rome, but the gift of God. I thank God for the shed blood of my savior Jesus Christ. Faith in that shed blood is all I need for salvation. In fact there is no other way.

Sola Gratia, Sola Fide
Mondar
 
francisdesales said:
Why the need for the "either/or"?

Which Catholic teaching states we do away with Jesus by honoring Jesus' decision to make Peter the Rock upon which He built His Church? By following the leadership in the community, did the Christians of 50 AD do away with Jesus???

We follow Christ in the manner set forth by our "elders", the Pope being the leader of these elders. Is this so difficult to comprehend for Protestants? Have they done away with leadership in THEIR communities? By following a pastor's lead, does this mean the Protestant is no longer following Christ?

Regards

I would not consider my pastor the "leader" of the Church - the role of Leader of the Church is reserved for Christ Jesus.

The role of pastor is that of shephard - which does not necessarily mean 'leader'. Also, you will note that the Spiritual Gift is referred to as "pastor/teacher".

Looking at it in a business model - one might say that Christ Jesus is the Leader, the Pastor is a manager taking his direction from the Leader and passing it on to the associates (flock).

Francis - this is a side issue, and perhaps you would start a thread in the Bible study section on it - but I am intrigued by your signature line. Humility does not call for debasing. Humility is knowing who you are - no more and no less.
 
reply

My biggest concern, whether one is Catholic or any other Denomination is whether one has been saved or not, and if they really preach the cross.



May God bless, Golfjack
 
I would not consider my pastor the "leader" of the Church - the role of Leader of the Church is reserved for Christ Jesus.

The role of pastor is that of shephard - which does not necessarily mean 'leader'. Also, you will note that the Spiritual Gift is referred to as "pastor/teacher".

More false dichotomy. Is Christ the light of the world or christians? Is Christ the foundation or prophets and apostles?

"Obey and submit to your LEADERS who have concern for your souls" Heb 13:17. Are they shepherds? Yes, of course. But they are also leaders. ANy leadership has to be through Christ. Christ is of course the ultimate leader but that does not mean there is not earthly subordinate leadership in the Church. I go with the Bible on this one.
 
If you dont understand the above let me make it clear. The Pontificus Maximus (the pope) is making claims that all protestants are going to hell. But for those of you who are protestant like me, I ask you not to fear the heretical ramblings of Rome, but to place your faith in the one who truly dispenses salvation, the Lord Jesus Christ. Remember the word of Paul:
"It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.[9] " [/quote]

Mondar, your post is a distortion.

Sanctification depends on truth. There would be no point in talking about sanctification if salvation were not possible in protestant churches because sanctification is not possible unless one is in grace. Down a bit more the document says:

"It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church"[12].

Quite plainly your post is based on what you want the POPE to have said. In this paragraph and the one I quoted above he clearly says that God does use separated churches,that includes protestants, as instruments of salvation.
 
"][quote="aLoneVoice

I would not consider my pastor the "leader" of the Church - the role of Leader of the Church is reserved for Christ Jesus.
I also believe that Jesus is the TRUE leader, but there are also leadership roles throughout the church, well at least mine anyway. We have a Jr. high ministry which has leaders in it ,and a high scool ministry which has leaders in it also.
The role of pastor is that of shephard - which does not necessarily mean 'leader'. Also, you will note that the Spiritual Gift is referred to as "pastor/teacher".
True that he is referred to as Pastor/Teacher.
 
thessalonian said:
More false dichotomy. Is Christ the light of the world or christians? Is Christ the foundation or prophets and apostles?

"Obey and submit to your LEADERS who have concern for your souls" Heb 13:17. Are they shepherds? Yes, of course. But they are also leaders. ANy leadership has to be through Christ. Christ is of course the ultimate leader but that does not mean there is not earthly subordinate leadership in the Church. I go with the Bible on this one.

Perhaps you missed the CAPITAL C in CHURCH!?!!?

I was not speaking about the local body of believers, but of the Universal Church.

Christ says that we are the salt of the earth and city on the hill.

And yes, Christ is the foundation.
 
thessalonian said:
Mondar, your post is a distortion.

Sanctification depends on truth. There would be no point in talking about sanctification if salvation were not possible in protestant churches because sanctification is not possible unless one is in grace. Down a bit more the document says:

"It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church"[12].

Quite plainly your post is based on what you want the POPE to have said. In this paragraph and the one I quoted above he clearly says that God does use separated churches,that includes protestants, as instruments of salvation.

Thess,
You say this is what I want the Pope to say? Why would I want the pope to say that I am going to hell?

Also, you are reading the quote from the 3ird question out of context. The material in the 3ird and 4th question has to do with the "Oriental Churches." The statements concerning the protestants are found in the 5th question.

Notice the 5th question demonstrates the word "Church" does not even apply to protestants.

FIFTH QUESTION

Why do the texts of the Council and those of the Magisterium since the Council not use the title of “Church†with regard to those Christian Communities born out of the Reformation of the sixteenth century?

Thus protestants are not the separated Churches which the 3ird question is speaking about. The phrase "separated Churches" refers to the "Oriental Churches" not protestants of the reformation. According to the document, protestants are not a "separated Church," but we are no Church at all. The Curia is associating the term Church, eucharist, sacramental priesthood, and mystery of salvation as all related. The point is that the protestants have none of the above and are therefore not a Church. For this reason, the Curia is not associating the term "salvation" to protestants.

I must compliment you on your attitude. You really dont want the Pope and Curia to be saying what they are. Thess, they are speaking of two different groups. Group one is the "Oriental churches" in questions 3 and 4. The second group is the "reformation of the 16th century" that is not a Church. You took a paragraph on the "separated Churches" (Oriental) and applied it to the reformation churches.

Quite plainly your post is based on what you want the POPE to have said. In this paragraph and the one I quoted above he clearly says that God does use separated churches,that includes protestants, as instruments of salvation.

Yes, the separated Churches have salvation according to the Curia. The separated Churches are the Oriental Churches that have:
“numerous elements of sanctification and of truth†(Q 3)
These numerous elements are a:
"constitutive element"
and therefore the Oriental Churches can be called "Churches." They are:
"instruments of salvation"

The reformation Churches have not the "constitutive element" (see Q5)
The reformation protestants cannot be instruments of salvation because they have not "apostolic succession... etc"

Thess, please compare the language of question 3 and 4 with question 5 on the reformation Churches. Notice what is necessary for salvation, and notice that it is lacking in the protestant churches.

Actually, in plain language, the pope and Curia are saying that all protestants are going to hell. Why does that bother you? Want to read Trent, or Vatican 1? Its really not new.
 
aLoneVoice said:
I would not consider my pastor the "leader" of the Church - the role of Leader of the Church is reserved for Christ Jesus.

The role of pastor is that of shephard - which does not necessarily mean 'leader'. Also, you will note that the Spiritual Gift is referred to as "pastor/teacher".



ALoneVoice,

Sorry I have not been more active here. I have been busy away from home. But the bigger issue is that we seem to be arguing the same subjects over and over...

You say your pastor is not a leader. What is your definition of a leader? Does this person direct the community's worship? Does he offer preacing and teaching direction? No, he is not Jesus Christ. Nor is the Pope. We don't make that claim. You (or other Protestants) make the claim that we believe that the Pope is on par with Jesus. Or that he replaces Jesus. This is faulty reasoning, as it overlooks the role that you have for your own pastor. As you may know, the Bible states that the Apostles left leaders, men with authority over their respective community. Did not Paul excommunicate the pervert in 1 Cor 5? Was Paul God?

To me, the ability to bind and loosen, to oust someone from the community, is a sure sign of authority. It is clear from Scriptures that MEN have been given this power from God, just as men have been given the power from God to forgive sins. A bit of thought on the roles of your own pastors and leaders should open your eyes to the fact that your pastor shares (albeit on a smaller scale) very similar powers that the Pope possesses. He is the shepherd of CHRIST'S sheep, while your pastor is the shepherd that leads your particular community to Christ.

aLoneVoice said:
Looking at it in a business model - one might say that Christ Jesus is the Leader, the Pastor is a manager taking his direction from the Leader and passing it on to the associates (flock).

The problem with that is that the Church is not a "business model". It is based on covenants, not contracts. Surely, you must know the differences, so I won't go into it now. We, the Church, are family, not a business. Any comparisons between the Church and a business are bound to fail.

aLoneVoice said:
Francis - this is a side issue, and perhaps you would start a thread in the Bible study section on it - but I am intrigued by your signature line. Humility does not call for debasing. Humility is knowing who you are - no more and no less.

I am quoting St. John Chrysostom, who was much wiser on such matters than you or me. Humility is not about knowing who you are!!! Humility is the opposite of pride and arrogance, not about knowing yourself.

Look to the Lord. He is the ultimate teacher of humility. And it was not about "knowing Himself"! It was about debasing Himself throughout His entire life for another, us. Perhaps some Protestants who enjoy the "health and wealth gospel" don't want to hear that. But the fact remains that we are called to humble ourselves, to love others who are "not loveable" by the world - it is not about "knowing ourselves"!

Seems you don't like my signatures... Should I go back to St. Irenaeus? I thought you would not be bothered by this one. I am glad you are at least reading this signature and thinking about it. I ask you to read Phil 2 for another explanation of humility.

Regards
 
According to the online Catholic Encyclopedia at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15403b.htm the pope is the supreme and universal primacy of both honor and jurisdiction over the "Church of Christ". Catholicism teaches that the pope is the visible stead of God and Christ over all mankind in the absense of Jesus Christ. The Vicarious or Vicar of Christ refers to the substitution of Christ. More lies of the devil.
  • Vicar of Christ
    (Latin Vicarius Christi).

    A title of the pope implying his supreme and universal primacy, both of honour and of jurisdiction, over the Church of Christ. It is founded on the words of the Divine Shepherd to St. Peter: "Feed my lambs. . . . Feed my sheep" (John 21:16-17), by which He constituted the Prince of the Apostles guardian of His entire flock in His own place, thus making him His Vicar and fulfilling the promise made in Matthew 16:18-19.

    In the course of the ages other vicarial designations have been used for the pope, as Vicar of St. Peter and even Vicar of the Apostolic See (Pope Gelasius, I, Ep. vi), but the title Vicar of Christ is more expressive of his supreme headship of the Church on earth, which he bears in virtue of the commission of Christ and with vicarial power derived from Him. Thus, Innocent III appeals for his power to remove bishops to the fact that he is Vicar of Christ (cap. "Inter corporalia", 2, "De trans. ep."). He also declares that Christ has given such power only to His Vicar Peter and his successors (cap. "Quanto", 3, ibid.), and states that it is the Roman Pontiff who is "the successor of Peter and the Vicar of Jesus Christ" (cap. "Licet", 4, ibid.). The title Vicar of God used for the pope by Nicholas III (c. "Fundamenta ejus", 17, "De elect.", in 6) is employed as an equivalent for Vicar of Christ.
How many lies can one tell against one truth? Many, many, many; and the Roman Catholic teachings are one lie upon another.

There is no substitute for Christ!!!!!
 
Solo said:
According to the online Catholic Encyclopedia at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15403b.htm the pope is the supreme and universal primacy of both honor and jurisdiction over the "Church of Christ". Catholicism teaches that the pope is the visible stead of God and Christ over all mankind in the absense of Jesus Christ. The Vicarious or Vicar of Christ refers to the substitution of Christ. More lies of the devil.
  • Vicar of Christ
    (Latin Vicarius Christi).

    A title of the pope implying his supreme and universal primacy, both of honour and of jurisdiction, over the Church of Christ. It is founded on the words of the Divine Shepherd to St. Peter: "Feed my lambs. . . . Feed my sheep" (John 21:16-17), by which He constituted the Prince of the Apostles guardian of His entire flock in His own place, thus making him His Vicar and fulfilling the promise made in Matthew 16:18-19.

    In the course of the ages other vicarial designations have been used for the pope, as Vicar of St. Peter and even Vicar of the Apostolic See (Pope Gelasius, I, Ep. vi), but the title Vicar of Christ is more expressive of his supreme headship of the Church on earth, which he bears in virtue of the commission of Christ and with vicarial power derived from Him. Thus, Innocent III appeals for his power to remove bishops to the fact that he is Vicar of Christ (cap. "Inter corporalia", 2, "De trans. ep."). He also declares that Christ has given such power only to His Vicar Peter and his successors (cap. "Quanto", 3, ibid.), and states that it is the Roman Pontiff who is "the successor of Peter and the Vicar of Jesus Christ" (cap. "Licet", 4, ibid.). The title Vicar of God used for the pope by Nicholas III (c. "Fundamenta ejus", 17, "De elect.", in 6) is employed as an equivalent for Vicar of Christ.
How many lies can one tell against one truth? Many, many, many; and the Roman Catholic teachings are one lie upon another.

There is no substitute for Christ!!!!!
Shhhh be quiet Thess might hear you.
 
Solo said:
According to the online Catholic Encyclopedia at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15403b.htm the pope is the supreme and universal primacy of both honor and jurisdiction over the "Church of Christ".

As I said before, Mike, this refers to ecclesiology. He has primacy in defining doctrine for the Church, since the Church is not run on a democratic model. Christ left an authoritative church, one that was given power and authority to bind and loosen, to even expel one from the community. This says nothing about who is going to heaven or hell, as you pretend to know. It merely says that the Bishop of Rome will have the final say over the Bishop of Baltimore on matters of faith and morals in the universal church...

Solo said:
Catholicism teaches that the pope is the visible stead of God and Christ over all mankind in the absense of Jesus Christ. The Vicarious or Vicar of Christ refers to the substitution of Christ. More lies of the devil.

As usual, you put your spin on Catholic teaching through the eyes of one who hates all things Catholic, then post in big fat letters, as if that is supposed to lend you more credibility... Perhaps you should read what you post without jumping to unnecessary conclusions.

You read a statement and automatically believe that it proves your pet theory of the day. Nowhere does the Catholic Church teach that the Bishop of Rome is a substitute for Christ. There is a difference between "representative" and "substitute". Even the Scriptures speak of the Apostles as representatives of Christ, working HIS ministry.

We don't pray to the Pope, we pray to God the Father through Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit moving us to do so.

Unfortunately, no matter how many times that is said to you, you won't believe it because it would destroy your world view, just as Christ's message was not accepted by the Pharisees because His message would destroy THEIR world view. The words stare you in the face, but you refuse to see. How sadly ironic the words of Christ said to the Pharisees apply to you.

Open your eyes, Mike. We pray to God, not the Pope. The Pope is not a substitute for Jesus, regardless of YOUR attempts to twist what we believe. Hardly the actions of one who is searching for the truth...

Regards
 
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