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Post-Trib rapture discussion.

The church has left the earth and the wrath of God begins. He cleanses the earth with fire in preparation for the new earth which is to follow.
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This is a topic where C and I actually can agree to agree. :clap

I need some clarification though, since this is a posttrib thread.

Assuming you adhere to a future 70th. week, where in that week do you place the harpazo? You mentioned the last trump; is this the seventh angelic trumpet or do you believe, like me, that the last trump is a trump not specifically mentioned in scripture?

The reason I ask is because I'm strongly led to believe the trumpets in Revelation are judgments and are part of God's wrath.

The church has left the earth and the wrath of God begins.
Click to expand...
Like me, I believe the very same thing, but this is not a component of the standard post trib view. Post tribbers believe the ekklesia is still here, but protected, during the wrath.

You may say it in your own words. I know the passages. :)
 
Vic C. said:
The church has left the earth and the wrath of God begins. He cleanses the earth with fire in preparation for the new earth which is to follow.
Click to expand...
This is a topic where C and I actually can agree to agree. :clap

I need some clarification though, since this is a posttrib thread.

Assuming you adhere to a future 70th. week, where in that week do you place the harpazo? You mentioned the last trump; is this the seventh angelic trumpet or do you believe, like me, that the last trump is a trump not specifically mentioned in scripture?

The reason I ask is because I'm strongly led to believe the trumpets in Revelation are judgments and are part of God's wrath.
Click to expand...

Hey Vic,

I believe the saints will go through the climax (man has been undergoing tribulation since he left the garden) to the tribulation up until just before the bowls of God's wrath are poured down on the earth.

The "harpazo" will take place when the two witnesses are resurrected. At this time, those who have died in Christ will be resurrected also, and those saints who are still alive will be taken up to heaven immediately after.

Rev 11:12
12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on. (NIV)

The last trumpet that Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15:52

52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (NIV)

corresponds to the last trumpet by the angel mentioned in both Rev 10:7 and Rev 11:15
trumpet (NIV)

Rev 10:7
7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets." (NIV)

Rev 11:15
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever." (NIV)

sonlite101
 
Their were followers of Jesus Christ in both tribulations, even unto the end of
both wars.

Rev. 7: ALL OF IT, goes with Rev. 9 ALL OF IT

Rev. 9:4
And to them it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the
earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only those men which have
NOT the seal of God in their foreheads.

Why would God have to tell the locust to only torment the ones that had NOT the
seal of God in their foreheads unless God's people where also still on the earth.
If God raptured them before tribulation then their would be no need to tell the locust
to only torment the ones that had NOT the seal, because all that would have been
left would have been those with NO seal. There would be no need for God to seal
his people unless to mark whom is his people where from those whom are not his
people, so the locust, would know whom to torment and whom not to torment.



Rev. 20:9
And they went up on the breath of the earth and compassed the
camp of the SAINTS about, and the beloved city, and fire came
down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Here God's people were still on earth right up to the time God brings fire down from
heaven, so where is the pre-tribulation rapture in that?

Will believers and non believers go through tribulation? YES

Mat. 24:4 thru 40 same as Mark 13:5 thru 37 and same as Luke 21: 8 thru 28
But for the elects sake THOSE DAYS shall be shortenend.

Jesus did NOT say: "But for the elect sake THEIR DAYS shall be shortened."

How are (Those Days) shortened? and what is (Those Days) Jesus is talking about?
(Those Days) are the Tribulation Days, and Jesus was saying they will not last long,
that the Tribulations Days will happen within a short time span, that it will not drag on
for a long time, because if it did then no flesh would be saved, because no one could
handle it and people would fall away.
 
Yes, 4th angel, I agree. There is no "á¼ÂÃÂÀαζÉ" until just prior to Jesus' return. That is --- the moment of the resurrection of the righteous, the first resurrection. The dead in Christ will rise first, and the overcomers who are alive at that time will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. Then the Lord will descend to the earth with all of these myriads of saints. Every eye will see Him. He will slay His enemies with a word (the "sword which proceeds out of His mouth), and the thousand year reign of Christ will begin.
 
Vic C. said:
The church has left the earth and the wrath of God begins. He cleanses the earth with fire in preparation for the new earth which is to follow.
Click to expand...
This is a topic where C and I actually can agree to agree. :clap

I need some clarification though, since this is a posttrib thread.

Assuming you adhere to a future 70th. week, where in that week do you place the harpazo? You mentioned the last trump; is this the seventh angelic trumpet or do you believe, like me, that the last trump is a trump not specifically mentioned in scripture?

The reason I ask is because I'm strongly led to believe the trumpets in Revelation are judgments and are part of God's wrath.

[quote:dqjhxmpw]The church has left the earth and the wrath of God begins.
Click to expand...
Like me, I believe the very same thing, but this is not a component of the standard post trib view. Post tribbers believe the ekklesia is still here, but protected, during the wrath.

You may say it in your own words. I know the passages. :)[/quote:dqjhxmpw]

I do not think that the Bible in fact tells us that we will "go to heaven" as such.I see a Psalm 91 happening with Christ being the secret place of the Almighty. As with Noah: He "left" by being raised by God above the destruction.It will be supernatural. How exactly , I do not see in the Bible.

God will "let us down" again , like Noah , and there will be a new earth.

I believe its the last trumpet, when the dead rise. If you read the story of Jericho, you will see the rapture there when the last trumpet blows and "every man went up ....."

I will give this link again for Post trib believers. I know everybody gives links and it feels like a burden to read them, so we just skip it and move on, but this book is definitive. You will find all the trumpets, where they blow. It covers the "weeks" of Daniel in detail. It gives a BIBLICAL description of the antichrist and not the modern fairytale version , that is being spread by ignorant believers.(Its not a "Left Behind" version) He tells about the White Horse rider, and all the other horses. He teaches about the man child in Rev 12. He uses the whole Bible from Genesis to teach about the end times, using types and shadows.Moses, Joseph, king David and the Prophets and looked at , all with OUR time in view. After this book, I never read another book except the Bible again on the end times.
He upsets normal modern day doctrines and basically kills them with the Word. I had to change many things I believed (Like pretrib rapture...yes, before this book I was a pretribber :sad ) But the Word changed me. For the first time it was logically presented to me.

For those who like learning, here is the link: Its 100% free and you can download or read inline:sadI printed mine out and placed it in a binder. )

http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=e-book2
 
Yes Paidion and Cornelius
You are correct, there is no pre-tribulation rapture, but there is a post-tribulation
rapture. At the end of or near the end of both wars of tribulation there is a rapture
for Gods people, and it will happen fast.
 
4thangelofEuphrates said:
Yes Paidion and Cornelius
You are correct, there is no pre-tribulation rapture, but there is a post-tribulation
rapture. At the end of or near the end of both wars of tribulation there is a rapture
for Gods people, and it will happen fast.
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Wars of Tribulation? :chin I have never heard of such a thing. What are these two wars of Tribulation you mention?
 
Rev. 20: all of up to verse 9
There is the First war which is before the dragon is bound in the bottomless pit, and the
Second war (Final War) where the dragon is released from the bottomless pit.
 
rev 20;9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth,and compassed the camp of the saints about,and the beloved city;and fire came down from God out of heaven,and devoured them.

I wouldnt call this a war.The only one seems to be doing any fighting is God.After Armegedon Jacob shall dwell in peace and safty without bars or walls for 1000 years.The Gog shall go up to take a spoil and God shall destroy him.Ezekiel describes this in Eze 38-39.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture takes place about 1000 years before this.
 
Shilohsfoal said:
rev 20;9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth,and compassed the camp of the saints about,and the beloved city;and fire came down from God out of heaven,and devoured them.

I wouldnt call this a war.The only one seems to be doing any fighting is God.After Armegedon Jacob shall dwell in peace and safty without bars or walls for 1000 years.The Gog shall go up to take a spoil and God shall destroy him.Ezekiel describes this in Eze 38-39.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture takes place about 1000 years before this.
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That is correct, otherwise we'd be discussing a post-millennial p.o.v.

I also have to agree with Shilohsfoal, Rev 20:9 isn't a war at all. Satan and his minions declare war by gathering, but God devoured them in an instant. Hardly a war... not even a fight. :salute
 
Daniel spoke of the resurrection also and said at this time thy people shall be deliverd.

Daniel 12;1-2
And at that time shall Michael stand up,the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people;and there shall be a time of trouble,such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time;and at that time thy people shall be deliverd,every one that shall be found written in the book.And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,some to everlasting life,and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Now some may say that this scripture is concerning Israel.But some people who say the covenant that God made with Israel is now made with them stumbles to understand what grafted into an olive tree means.see Romans11;17-27
 
Lets take a look at the events that take place after the tribulation as Described by Jesus in Mat 24;29

Immediatle after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,and the moon shall not give her light,and the stars shall fall from heaven,and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

Compared to-Rev 6;12-13

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal,and,lo,there was a great earthquake;and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair,and the moon became as blood;
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth,even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs,when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
 
You guys think the stars mentioned here are angels, and not literal stars (of course not literal stars, lol)

Rev 6:12-13
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal,and,lo,there was a great earthquake;and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair,and the moon became as blood;
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth,even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs,when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev 1:20 the mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks are seven churches.

Rev 12:3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems.
Rev 12:4 And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:
 
Now some may say that this scripture is concerning Israel. But some people who say the covenant that God made with Israel is now made with them stumbles to understand what grafted into an olive tree means.see Romans11;17-27.
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I used to believe the dispensational belief of the two plans for salvation. But the Romans 11 passage kept nagging me, among other passages and verses, with John 14:6 near or at the top of the list. I can't deny the possibility of two separate gatherings though; one for the ekklesia already 'in' Christ (prewrath) and one for Jews who come to know Messiah after the Wrath, when God finally gathers HIS remnant of Israel from the wilderness and introduces them to their 'Bridegroom'.

I make clear distinctions between Tribulation by the Adversary and the Wrath, which is from God, so it's easy for me to see who is gathered and when.
 
researcher"]You guys think the stars mentioned here are angels, and not literal stars (of course not literal stars, lol)
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No,I dont think they are litteral stars.I just compare alot of scripture such as the following verse you posted.

Rev 12:3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems.
Rev 12:4 And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:
Click to expand...

Daniel 8;10
And it waxed great,even to the host of heaven;and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground,and stamped upon them.
 
Shilohsfoal said:
researcher"]You guys think the stars mentioned here are angels, and not literal stars (of course not literal stars, lol)
Click to expand...

No,I dont think they are litteral stars.I just compare alot of scripture such as the following verse you posted.

[quote:2xwy9yup]Rev 12:3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems.
Rev 12:4 And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:
Click to expand...

Daniel 8;10
And it waxed great,even to the host of heaven;and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground,and stamped upon them.[/quote:2xwy9yup]

Excellent SF. :D Stars are symbolic for angels.

And, the first mention of sun, moon and stars is:

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it to his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed yet a dream: and, behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Gen 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren; and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed?
Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

Of national Israel. :D
 
researcher said:
Vic C. said:
You guys think the stars mentioned here are angels, and not literal stars (of course not literal stars, lol)
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No, I don't. Maybe others do, but not I. :)
Click to expand...

So, literal stars will fall onto the earth? ;) :)
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Mis-communication. I bolded what I believe and posted what I didn't believe. :oops I don't believe they are literal stars.
 
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