...potential existence of extraterrestrials

[Vic C.]

Pdoug,

I think you took Ezekiel way out of it's historical context. I don't believe this is a case for ETs. This chapter resembles many of the apocalyptic writings of his time. He's writing in the same style as Daniel and John in Revelation.

The whirlwind coming out of the North and the fact that all four creatures are compared to a man and not four men should have been a dead giveaway.

http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkeeze1.htm

excerpt:

I have endeavoured to explain these appearances as correctly as possible; to show their forms, positions, colours. But who can explain their meaning? We have conjectures in abundance; and can it be of any use to mankind to increase the number of those conjectures? I think not. I doubt whether the whole does not point out the state of the Jews, who were about to be subdued by Nebuchadnezzar, and carried into captivity.

And I am inclined to think that the "living creatures, wheels, fires, whirlwinds, which are introduced here, point out, emblematically, the various means, sword, fire, pestilence, famine, which were employed in tneir destruction; and that God appears in all this to show that Nebuchadnezzar is only his instrument to inflict all these calamities. What is in the following chapter appears to me to confirm this supposition. But we have the rainbow, the token of God's covenant, to show that though there should be a destruction of the city, temple, &c., and sore tribulation among the people, yet there should not be a total ruin; after a long captivity they should be restored. The rainbow is an illustrious token of mercy and love.

 

[reznwerks]

time

Pdoug,

I think you took Ezekiel way out of it's historical context. I don't believe this is a case for ETs. This chapter resembles many of the apocalyptic writings of his time. He's writing in the same style as Daniel and John in Revelation.

The problem is Ezekiel wasn't copying anyones style as he is the oldest.

excerpt:

 

[Soma-Sight]

Anyone who reads the Ezekiel encounters as well as Revelations could not help but dabble with the idea that "Alien" is an adequate description of the events......

 

[Vic C.]

Re: time

Pdoug,

I think you took Ezekiel way out of it's historical context. I don't believe this is a case for ETs. This chapter resembles many of the apocalyptic writings of his time. He's writing in the same style as Daniel and John in Revelation.

The problem is Ezekiel wasn't copying anyones style as he is the oldest.

excerpt:

That's not a problem. My point was the style of writing in apocalyptic books is very similiar. Who cares who was first?

Dude, you need to work on your quoting skills. Don't they teach that in Athiest school? :P

 

[PDoug]

Pdoug,

I think you took Ezekiel way out of it's historical context. I don't believe this is a case for ETs. This chapter resembles many of the apocalyptic writings of his time. He's writing in the same style as Daniel and John in Revelation.

The whirlwind coming out of the North and the fact that all four creatures are compared to a man and not four men should have been a dead giveaway.

I don’t understand. Are you saying the things Ezekiel saw originated from our physical earth? Unless something originates from our physical earth, it is extraterrestrial. Also there is nothing that indicates that what Ezekiel saw was a vision. Ezekiel 1:1 says, “In the thirtieth year, in the fourth month on the fifth day, while I was among the exiles by the Kebar River, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.†However Ezekiel 1:2-28 goes on to describe an event at another time ("On the fifth of the monthâ€â€it was the fifth year of the exile of King Jehoiachin") as if it physically happened before him. In addition, the following scripture indicates that what took place in front of Ezekiel, actually occurred physically.

Ezekiel 3

12 Then the Spirit lifted me up, and I heard behind me a loud rumbling soundâ€â€May the glory of the LORD be praised in his dwelling place!
13 the sound of the wings of the living creatures brushing against each other and the sound of the wheels beside them, a loud rumbling sound.
14 The Spirit then lifted me up and took me away, and I went in bitterness and in the anger of my spirit, with the strong hand of the LORD upon me.
15 I came to the exiles who lived at Tel Abib near the Kebar River. And there, where they were living, I sat among them for seven days-overwhelmed.

The above scripture indicates that the Spirit physically deposited Ezekiel at a new location from where he was originally – which does not happen in visions.

Also, how does the fact that the creatures resembled men, but were not men, indicate that they were not real? Aren’t there many species of primates that look somewhat alike but are not the same? Why is it so difficult to believe that God created creatures that are variations of His image? From the description of angels, don’t many of them also resemble God, and hence men as well - but are not men? Doesn't God resemble man, but is not man in an important sense? Therefore the fact that the living creatures resembled men but were not men, hardly undermines that what Ezekiel saw was a physical occurrence.

 

[reznwerks]

Re: time

Pdoug,

I think you took Ezekiel way out of it's historical context. I don't believe this is a case for ETs. This chapter resembles many of the apocalyptic writings of his time. He's writing in the same style as Daniel and John in Revelation.

The problem is Ezekiel wasn't copying anyones style as he is the oldest.

excerpt:

That's not a problem. My point was the style of writing in apocalyptic books is very similiar. Who cares who was first?
Since you noticed similarities in writing style lets discuss some of the probable problems. Lets talk about Daniel in particular. The common assumption is that it was written around 600 bc. Let see why this is probably not correct.

"The text contains a number of Greek words; yet the Greek occupation of the area did not occur until the 4th century BCE.
One of the musical instruments mentioned in Daniel 3:5 and in subsequent passages did not exist until developed in 2nd century BCE Greece.
Daniel 1:4 refers to the "Chaldeans" as a priestly class in Babylon. This term did not attain this meaning until much later than the 6th century.
About 180 BCE, Jeshua ben Sira listed the heroes of the Jewish faith, including "Enoch, Noah and Abraham through to Nehemiah;" 2 Daniel is not mentioned - presumably because Jeshua is unaware of him. This would indicate that the book of Daniel was written after that time.
Chapter 12 discusses the dead being resurrected, judged, and taken to either heaven and hell. At the time of Daniel, the Jews believed that all persons went to Sheol after death. The concept of heaven and hell was introduced centuries later by the Greeks. It did not appear in Israel until the time of the Maccabean revolt.
Daniel 11:31 (and elsewhere) refers to "the abominable thing that causes desolation." This appears to refer to the erection of a statue of Zeus in the Jerusalem temple in 167 BCE, and would indicate that the book was written later than that date.
Prior to Daniel 11:40, the author(s) has been recording past events under the Babylonian, Median, Persian and Greek empires. In Daniel 11:40-45, he really attempts to predict the future. He prophesizes that a king of the south (of the Ptolemaic dynasty) will attack the Greeks in Palestine, under Antiochus. The Greeks will win, will lay spoil to all of northeast Africa, and return to Palestine where Antiochus will die. The end of history will then occur. The author(s) appeared to be a poor psychic because none of these events actually happened. Antiochus did die in 164 BCE, but it was in Persia. Thus, the book was apparently completed before 164. "
Do you have any solutions as to how those problems might be corrected?
What does the bible say about a prophet whose prophecies don't come to pass?
Do you want to discuss the failed prophecy of Tyre given by Ezekiel? You guys are basing your life on a supposed "end time" based on personal interpretations, by men who uttered prophecies that failed in their lifetime. You are taking books that were written by more than one person over scores of years. I have shown in both Ezekiel and Daniel failed prophecy but you still think its relevant enough to base your life on.


Dude, you need to work on your quoting skills. Don't they teach that in Athiest school?

So how are those anger management classes going?Still not using decaf ?
:P

 

[Vic C.]

We have different ideas on what this chapter inplies. It is a difficuit prophesy to understand. I did mention the whirlwind coming out of the North and the four creatures resembling one man, not men. You said men in your last post, but that's not what the verse says. It reminds me a bit of Daniel and when he was explaining the dream to Nebuchadnezzar.

Actually, this chapter, I believe, is about Nebuchadnezzar. I believe the whirlwind coming out of the North and the four creatures as one man are describing Nebuchadnezzar and his armies and what is about to happen to Israel.

It is about to happen and God put Exekiel there to preach to Israel during some of their time of captivity. This is why I see it as a vision and not an actual et event. This what I meant by it's historlcal context.

 

[reznwerks]

how

We have different ideas on what this chapter inplies. It is a difficuit prophesy to understand. I did mention the whirlwind coming out of the North and the four creatures resembling one man, not men. You said men in your last post, but that's not what the verse says. It reminds me a bit of Daniel and when he was explaining the dream to Nebuchadnezzar.

Actually, this chapter, I believe, is about Nebuchadnezzar. I believe the whirlwind coming out of the North and the four creatures as one man are describing Nebuchadnezzar and his armies and what is about to happen to Israel.

It is about to happen and God put Exekiel there to preach to Israel during some of their time of captivity. This is why I see it as a vision and not an actual et event. This what I meant by it's historlcal context.

How do you do that? How do you take something that is so plain that shows error in what it says would happen and then ignore it and put your own spin on it and proclaim it's true?Most of what I posted is just a history lesson. The facts speak for themselves. Do you realize how much of the bible has to be first denied and then reinterpreted in order to make the views of the particular believer acceptable? Absolutely amazing.

 

[PDoug]

Reznwerks,

Please read Daniel 10. You will see where Daniel was speaking and interacting with various members of the Godhead who were contending with various non-human forces. (You can tell that the individuals were Gods, from various cues like Daniel referring to one of them as Lord in Daniel 10:17.)

Daniel 10

12 Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them.
13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.
14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come."

Now there is no way that members of the Godhead from these beings’ realms could be contending with human princes and such. (They would be much too powerful to have to do that.) Therefore these princes of Persia in the above and subsequent passages, refer to non-human beings. This means that the stuff that was talked about in Daniel 11, are actually occurrences that were, or are to take place, in higher level spiritual realms that affect our world. (Please note that creation is hyper sophisticated, and the reason we are not able to be aware of its intricacies, and understand the scriptures well, is because we have been greatly contaminated and hence weakened by sin.)

As for "the abominable thing that causes desolation", that is a reference to the anti-Christ.

 

[PDoug]

We have different ideas on what this chapter inplies. It is a difficuit prophesy to understand. I did mention the whirlwind coming out of the North and the four creatures resembling one man, not men. You said men in your last post, but that's not what the verse says. It reminds me a bit of Daniel and when he was explaining the dream to Nebuchadnezzar.

Please note the scripture below:

Ezekiel 1

4 I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the northâ€â€an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal,
5 and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man,
6 but each of them had four faces and four wings.
7 Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze.
8 Under their wings on their four sides they had the hands of a man. All four of them had faces and wings,
9 and their wings touched one another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.
10 Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle.

Ezekiel 1:5 indicates the creatures had the form of a man. Now given the fact that the creatures were 4 distinct beings (verse 5), each having a face of a man (verse 10), and also each having hands of a man, it strikes me as reasonable to say that the creatures resembled men – with each of them resembling a man.

 

[Vic C.]

Doug, the error lies in how I was reading, or misreading vs. 5 and 6. Saying "men" is correct... and I stand corrected. 8-)

I still don't buy into this as being a vision of an alien spacecraft and four ETs. My original understanding may even be wrong. The more I read this passage, the more I see parallels to verses like Ezekiel 11:22 or Revelation 4:6-7

Ezekiel 11:22 Then did the cherubims lift up their wings, and the wheels beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above.

Revelation 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Revelation 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

Plus, we can't forget ths verse:

Ezek 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.


I'd like to continue this discussion, but I can't deal with the constant interjections of uninspired members. It's like being in court with a whining defense lawyer, constantly standing up and saying, "I object". After a while, the judge loses his/her patience.

Peace,
Vic

 

[reznwerks]

Daniel

Reznwerks,

Please read Daniel 10. You will see where Daniel was speaking and interacting with various members of the Godhead who were contending with various non-human forces. (You can tell that the individuals were Gods, from various cues like Daniel referring to one of them as Lord in Daniel 10:17.)
.

You need to resolve the issues regarding the Book of Daniel I posted above before you can give any creedence to any claims made in either Daniel or Ezekiel. Obviously more than one person was writing based on the facts and events which are referenced. Secondly there are failed prophecy in both which doesn't do a whole lot for credibility. I don't doubt there are parts of Daniel which discuss visions and prophecy. What I doubt is how much confidence should be placed in them considering the other facts we have about Daniel.

 

[PDoug]

I still don't buy into this as being a vision of an alien spacecraft and four ETs.

I'm not saying ETs similar to the types shown on the X-Files exist. What I’m saying is that ETs do exist, but they are of the spiritual types shown throughout a range of scriptures in and out of the Bible (e.g. the ones shown in Ezekiel 1).

 

[PDoug]

You need to resolve the issues regarding the Book of Daniel I posted above before you can give any creedence to any claims made in either Daniel or Ezekiel. Obviously more than one person was writing based on the facts and events which are referenced. Secondly there are failed prophecy in both which doesn't do a whole lot for credibility. I don't doubt there are parts of Daniel which discuss visions and prophecy. What I doubt is how much confidence should be placed in them considering the other facts we have about Daniel.

It is not unusual for scriptures to be written by others and attributed to a person. It was just a style of writing that was used long ago, and was not considered bad or damaging. E.g. the Book of Enoch which was used widely by the early church, appears to have been written by several authors as well, but was attributed to have been written by Enoch. The Book of Enoch is quoted by a range of scriptures in the Bible (including Jude) which underscores its authenticity as an inspired work. Further, Christ quoted from the book of Daniel in Matthew 24:15, which is as strong as an endorsement as you can get, that the book is spiritually sound. (Note: it is in Matthew 24:15 that Christ explains that "the abomination that causes desolation" is the anti-Christ.)

Regarding the predictions in the book of Daniel, they are as I indicated to you 5 messages up. The predictions in Daniel 11 are not descriptions of events that take place in our world, but rather they are descriptions of events that take place in other worlds, that have a bearing on our world.

The scriptures show e.g. a number of cases where prophets are taken up to mountains in visions that are out of our world – where these mountains correspond to mountains present in our physical world.

 

[Soma-Sight]

The scriptures show e.g. a number of cases where prophets are taken up to mountains in visions that are out of our world – where these mountains correspond to mountains present in our physical world.

hehe