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Pray for our borthers and sisters in the Lord

This is a thread for those of us that have broken free from dispensationalism (or never believed it to begin with) and have drawn closer to God because of being released from it.

I am guilty of debating with others about dispensationalists, trying to make them see truth but it becomes apparent to me that it is a wasted effort. That *I* as a person cannot change another. When people have been fed info for so long it can become terrifying to question ones belief that they have held for so long. Debating seldom issues results.

So...I encourage you my brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for dispensationalists. Pray God grants them wisdom and discernment and blesses them with the strength and faith to move beyond the words of man and focus on God and his Words.

Amen.
.
 
I feel your pain and completely agree. I also want to turn your most gracious post into a form letter for any errant beliefs.:mischief

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This is a thread for those of us that have broken free from ________ (or never believed it to begin with) and have drawn closer to God because of being released from it.

I am guilty of debating with others about ________, trying to make them see truth but it becomes apparent to me that it is a wasted effort. That *I* as a person cannot change another. When people have been fed info for so long it can become terrifying to question ones belief that they have held for so long. Debating seldom issues results.

So...I encourage you my brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for ________. Pray God grants them wisdom and discernment and blesses them with the strength and faith to move beyond the words of man and focus on God and his Words.

Amen.

--------
 
I am guilty of debating with others about dispensationalists, trying to make them see truth but it becomes apparent to me that it is a wasted effort . . . When people have been fed info for so long it can become terrifying to question ones belief that they have held for so long. Debating seldom issues results.

.

My debating days with dispensationalists are over. I pray that God grant us guidance.

Dan
 
What is a dispensationalist?

What is a Futurist?

Please use the scriptures to explain.


Thanks JLB
 
Is this about the churches in America being so dug into dispensation teachings that they would not allow Spurgeon or any other great man of God to pastor or preach in any of their churches?

tob

*edit: Quote Unquote
 
Jordanian minister accuses Israel of planning to erect the third Temple

Islamic endowments minister says Israel wants to partition the Temple Mount


Jordanian minister accuses Israel of planning to erect the third Temple | The Times of Israel


Looks like the only people left who don't believe there will be another temple is Preterist's.


JLB

LOL!

There will be no future physical temple of God. Jesus has already built the Third Temple and it is found on heavenly mount Sion (spelled "mount Zion" in most Old Testament prophecies):

"For through him we [Jews and Gentiles] both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:18-22)

But there will always be stiff-necked, high-minded types that think, "If we build it, God will come." They never learn. You can destroy their cities; level their temple to the ground (with not one stone left upon another;) have their blood pouring so heavily it puts out fires; leave their slaughtered bodies out in the open for the fowls and wild beasts to feast on; and the survivors still think they are "God's chosen people." You can't make this stuff up.

The last time Jews tried to rebuild the temple was in 363 A.D., and it did not end well. There has been no one brave enough (or stupid enough) to try again, until now. The following is from:
http://www.bibleprobe.com/rebuildingthetemple.htm

"The Jews already tried to rebuild the Temple. In 363 A.D., egged on by the Roman Emperor Julian the Apostate, the Jews tore down every remaining stone from the old temple to begin rebuilding it. But God miraculously halted this work

Jesus predicted that not one stone of the Jewish Temple would remain atop another. The Romans utterly destroyed the Temple in 70 A.D. What many people don't know is that in 363 A.D. the Jews tried to rebuild it, but God would have none of this. In doing so, Jews themselves took the remaining stones from the Temple Mount. In hindsight, the extraordinary act of Moshe Dayan handing over the Temple Mount to the Muslims can actually be seen as an Act of God. This is because, according to Scripture -only after the Lord returns will the Jewish Temple be rebuilt."


That last sentence is absolutely false. That is the Jewish interpretation of the scriptures (and the interpretation of those who have been misled by the Jews;) and the Jews tend to always get the scripture wrong. Here they are mocking Jesus while he was hanging on the cross:

"Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross." (Matthew 27:40)

As aforementioned, Jesus has already built the Third Temple, with he himself as the chief cornerstone. The holy temple is found on heavenly mount Sion, which is located everywhere you find Christians. There is no future building project for another temple of God: only continuous plans to expand the size of the current one.

I don't know how much clearer this can be made, but let us try one more time:

"Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet," (Acts 7:48)

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;" (Acts 17:24)

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" (1 Cor 3:16)

"... know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" (1 Cor 6:19)

"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." (Rev 21:22)

"And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (2 Cor 6:16)

"My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Ezekiel 37:27)

"And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." (Rev 21:3)

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." (2 Cor 5:1)

"If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." (1 Cor 3:17)

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor 5:10)


Dan
 
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LOL!

There will be no future physical temple of God. Jesus has already built the Third Temple and it is found on heavenly mount Sion (spelled "mount Zion" in most Old Testament prophecies):

"For through him we [Jews and Gentiles] both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:18-22)

But there will always be stiff-necked, high-minded types that think, "If we build it, God will come." They never learn. You can destroy their cities; level their temple to the ground (with not one stone left upon another;) have their blood pouring so heavily it puts out fires; leave their slaughtered bodies out in the open for the fowls and wild beasts to feast on; and the survivors still think they are "God's chosen people." You can't make this stuff up.

The last time Jews tried to rebuild the temple was in 363 A.D., and it did not end well. There has been no one brave enough (or stupid enough) to try again, until now. The following is from:
http://www.bibleprobe.com/rebuildingthetemple.htm

"The Jews already tried to rebuild the Temple. In 363 A.D., egged on by the Roman Emperor Julian the Apostate, the Jews tore down every remaining stone from the old temple to begin rebuilding it. But God miraculously halted this work

Jesus predicted that not one stone of the Jewish Temple would remain atop another. The Romans utterly destroyed the Temple in 70 A.D. What many people don't know is that in 363 A.D. the Jews tried to rebuild it, but God would have none of this. In doing so, Jews themselves took the remaining stones from the Temple Mount. In hindsight, the extraordinary act of Moshe Dayan handing over the Temple Mount to the Muslims can actually be seen as an Act of God. This is because, according to Scripture -only after the Lord returns will the Jewish Temple be rebuilt."


That last sentence is absolutely false. That is the Jewish interpretation of the scriptures (and the interpretation of those who have been misled by the Jews;) and the Jews tend to always get the scripture wrong. Here they are mocking Jesus while he was hanging on the cross:

"Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross." (Matthew 27:40)

As aforementioned, Jesus has already built the Third Temple, with he himself as the chief cornerstone. The holy temple is found on heavenly mount Sion, which is located everywhere you find Christians. There is no future building project for another temple of God: only continuous plans to expand the size of the current one.

I don't know how much clearer this can be made, but let us try one more time:

"Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet," (Acts 7:48)

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;" (Acts 17:24)

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" (1 Cor 3:16)

"... know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" (1 Cor 6:19)

"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." (Rev 21:22)

"And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (2 Cor 6:16)

"My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Eze 37:27)

"And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." (Rev 21:3)

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." (2 Cor 5:1)

"If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." (1 Cor 3:17)

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor 5:10)


Dan

There will be a Temple built in Jerusalem.
There will be a False Messiah revealed there.
The scriptures will be fulfilled.

JLB
 
There is a Temple in heaven in which God dwells.

There is also a Temple that is the Church.

There is also a Temple in Revelation 11 that will be standing before Jesus returns. The false Messiah will be revealed from the Temple in Jerusalem.
 
There is a Temple in heaven in which God dwells.
There is also a Temple that is the Church.
There is also a Temple in Revelation 11 that will be standing before Jesus returns. The false Messiah will be revealed from the Temple in Jerusalem.

Oh, you mean the temple that was destroyed during the war in 70 A.D.: the temple that was in the once holy city of Jerusalem which the Gentiles--the Roman Armies--trod under foot for forty and two months. That event was foretold in both the old and new Testaments, with John being the last to prophesy about it when he wrote the Revelation in 60-61 A.D., or sooner:

Here is John:

"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." (Rev 11:2)

Here is Jesus:

"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." (Luke 21:24)

Here is Isaiah:

"Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye [Jerusalem] shall be trodden down by it." (Isaiah 28:14-18)

This is Flavius Josephus, a Jewish priest and historian, unknowingly writing about the fulfillment of Revelation 16:21 during the Roman seige of Jerusalem 67-70 A.D.:

"The [catapult] engines, that all the [Roman] legions had ready prepared for them, were admirably contrived; but still more extraordinary ones belonged to the tenth legion: those that threw darts and those that threw stones were more forcible and larger than the rest, by which they not only repelled the excursions of the Jews, but drove those away that were upon the walls also. Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs [1/4 mile] and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space." (Josephus, Wars of the Jews,V.6)

"And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven,every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." (Revelation 16:21)

I believe one of those large stones, catapulted by the armies of the Roman "Beast," was responsible for the death of at least one of the two witnesses:

"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Rev 11:7-8)

Read carefully. If this fellow was not prophesying in sackcloth, it cannot be done. You will notice he prophesied about 7 years total; but only about 3.5 years after the war began. And he truly did torment the people:

"But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" . . . Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost." (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, VI.5.3)

Dan
 
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There is a Temple in heaven in which God dwells.

There is also a Temple that is the Church.

There is also a Temple in Revelation 11 that will be standing before Jesus returns. The false Messiah will be revealed from the Temple in Jerusalem.

Where does it say in Revelation 11 that John is to measure a third, rebuilt temple? There was still a temple in Jerusalem when he wrote the Revelation about 60-61 A.D., or even sooner.

Dan
 
What is a dispensationalist?
The Apostle Paul spoke of a dispensation of the gospel, one of the fullness of times, and one to fulfill the gospel; no wonder God had to allow him to suffer so much huh? If Paul had remained until this day I’m sure we could have taught him the truth, and he would have given up those silly ideas.

I know there must be those among us continuing to avoid the tree of knowledge of good and evil, offering the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof, or the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his dung, shalt thou burn with fire without the camp: it is a sin offering; don’t forget all the remainder of the ministration of death to the nth degree.
 
Jordanian minister accuses Israel of planning to erect the third Temple

Islamic endowments minister says Israel wants to partition the Temple Mount


Jordanian minister accuses Israel of planning to erect the third Temple | The Times of Israel


Looks like the only people left who don't believe there will be another temple is Preterist's.


JLB

Who said that they don't believe there will be a third temple built?

Maybe they believe like I do, that any third temple built by people who deny Jesus as the Messiah will not be holy.
 
Where does it say in Revelation 11 that John is to measure a third, rebuilt temple? There was still a temple in Jerusalem when he wrote the Revelation about 60-61 A.D., or even sooner.

Dan


Where does it say in scripture that Jesus came in 70 AD.


JLB
 
Oh, you mean the temple that was destroyed during the war in 70 A.D.: the temple that was in the once holy city of Jerusalem which the Gentiles--the Roman Armies--trod under foot for forty and two months. That event was foretold in both the old and new Testaments, with John being the last to prophesy about it when he wrote the Revelation in 60-61 A.D., or sooner:

Here is John:

"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." (Rev 11:2)

Here is Jesus:

"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." (Luke 21:24)

Here is Isaiah:

"Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye [Jerusalem] shall be trodden down by it." (Isaiah 28:14-18)

This is Flavius Josephus, a Jewish priest and historian, unknowingly writing about the fulfillment of Revelation 16:21 during the Roman seige of Jerusalem 67-70 A.D.:

"The [catapult] engines, that all the [Roman] legions had ready prepared for them, were admirably contrived; but still more extraordinary ones belonged to the tenth legion: those that threw darts and those that threw stones were more forcible and larger than the rest, by which they not only repelled the excursions of the Jews, but drove those away that were upon the walls also. Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs [1/4 mile] and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space." (Josephus, Wars of the Jews,V.6)

"And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven,every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." (Revelation 16:21)

I believe one of those large stones, catapulted by the armies of the Roman "Beast," was responsible for the death of at least one of the two witnesses:

"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Rev 11:7-8)

Read carefully. If this fellow was not prophesying in sackcloth, it cannot be done. You will notice he prophesied about 7 years total; but only about 3.5 years after the war began. And he truly did torment the people:

"But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" . . . Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost." (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, VI.5.3)

Dan


John wrote the book of Revelation in 90 AD.

JLB
 
John wrote the book of Revelation in 90 AD.

JLB

Consider this scripture.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. [Judizers]
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

It is impossible for this scripture to be true if it was written after AD70. Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews scattered or in slavery.

So what are you basing the late date on?
 
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