Pray for our borthers and sisters in the Lord

[jasoncran]

Consider this scripture.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. [Judizers]
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

It is impossible for this scripture to be true if it was written after AD70. Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews scattered or in slavery.

So what are you basing the late date on?

not all jews left the levant. the jews that rebelled did. the jews were in the land and these jews are the ones who claimed the right to live in modern isreal. the Ashkenazim are the first of many jews that left and went to what is today modern Germany.google the bar khoba revolt.

 

[Dan00]

John wrote the book of Revelation in 90 AD.

JLB

Wrong. There is only one person, Irenaeus, who wrote a vague statement about John during "Domitian's" reign; and everyone else jumped on his bandwagon with the false conclusion that John wrote the book during Domitian's reign (or, about 90-95 A.D.)

Now, they all are being exposed as sloppy historians. In fact, only a few "hanger-oners" today still believe (or pretend they believe) such. You see, Irenaeus contradicted himself in his own book. Further, a careful scrutiny of other historians of the era, reveals that Nero Domitius (yes that is his family name) is the one that banished John to Patmos. Otherwise, how would this verse make any sense except to the most naive:

"And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings." (Rev 10:11)

LOL! A 95 year-old man getting around that well? It is also written that John supposedly rode a horse at full gallop during those days. LOL!

There were nine churches in Asia prior to the 61 A.D. earthquake, which destroyed three churches. Laodicea was supposedly rebuilt quickly, within a year. From the wording of the Revelation, John most likely wrote to the seven churches in Asia when there were exactly seven churches in Asia: probably about 62 A.D., though some say there was a window of only 7 churches for about 5-6 years, meaning John could have written the book as late as 68 A.D., which was the Nero committed suicide.

"John to the seven churches which are in Asia:" (Rev 1:4)

"What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia:" (Rev 1:11)

Paul wrote to one of those seven churches and other churches, after John wrote to the seven. This is by early Church father, Caius:

". . . as the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name, in this order: the first to the Corinthians, the second to the Ephesians, the third to the Philippians, the fourth to the Colossians, the fifth to the Galatians, the sixth to the Thessalonians, the seventh to the Romans. Moreover, though he writes twice to the Corinthians and Thessalonians for their correction, it is yet shown—i.e., by this sevenfold writing—that there is one Church spread abroad through the whole world. And John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes only to seven churches, yet addresses all." (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Caius, "Canon Muratorianus", III.3)

Caius assumes there were more than seven churches at the time John wrote the book, but doesn't elaborate. He is clear that Paul wrote his epistles after John wrote the Revelation. Paul was supposedly beheaded by Nero in 68 A.D. Therefore, this pushes the date of the Revelation back some years prior to Nero's death; otherwise one would have to assume Paul wrote to all those churches in a very short time.

Anyway, there is a lot of good history like this pointing to a pre-70 A.D. date for the Revelation. The history for a post-70 A.D. date is, for all practical purposes, non-existant.

Dan

 

[Deborah13]

not all jews left the levant. the jews that rebelled did. the jews were in the land and these jews are the ones who claimed the right to live in modern isreal. the Ashkenazim are the first of many jews that left and went to what is today modern Germany.google the bar khoba revolt.

Thanks for your insight Jason!
So that reasoning was incorrect on my part. The Jews were still persecuting the Jewish Christians well into the 2nd Century.

 

[jasoncran]

Thanks for your insight Jason!
So that reasoning was incorrect on my part. The Jews were still persecuting the Jewish Christians well into the 2nd Century.

in part, the bar khoba revolt did involve murdering of Christians.

 

[veryberry]

If you believe that bible is separated into an "old testament" and a "new testament". You are a dispensationalist. Hyper-dispensationalist is what to watch out for. It is clear that God dispenses grace, salvation, righteousness through more than one way.

 

[jasoncran]

If you believe that bible is separated into an "old testament" and a "new testament". You are a dispensationalist. Hyper-dispensationalist is what to watch out for. It is clear that God dispenses grace, salvation, righteousness through more than one way.

the bible wasn't divided that way, until a heretic did that.

 

[Edward]

Yeah, it gives measurements for the temple in scripture. Supposedly, they even have plans for to be rebuilt. Building materials and so forth being readied. (search youboob). I also do have a loosely held belief that the Lord does deal with Israel differently than the church. Not something that is long held but rather something that I've read about in the last year or two. They are His chosen people and for the most part have always turned their back to God. I can't pretend to know all the facts about it, I haven't studied it very deeply, but while we are grafted together as one new man so to speak, what is so weird about the concept of God perhaps dealing with Israel a little differently than Gentiles?

I don't see where it would be heretical or anything like that, liken it to having two children, a boy and a girl. You love both and would die for both, yet deal with them slightly differently. ?? But on the other hand, if anyone wants to pray for me, feel free. I can use all the prayer I can get. I wasn't even sure of the term dispinsationalist (?) and had to look it up, lol. Labels, gah!

If you believe that bible is separated into an "old testament" and a "new testament". You are a dispensationalist.

Is that the qualifier? (LOL). Well I'm not then. I think it's one book. God does not change so all of the truths and promises are for us also. Notwithstanding Mosaic law and much Jewish tradition, other than that the only difference is that on the night of the last supper Jesus announced the new covenant.

 

[Deborah13]

Yeah, it gives measurements for the temple in scripture. Supposedly, they even have plans for to be rebuilt. Building materials and so forth being readied. (search youboob). I also do have a loosely held belief that the Lord does deal with Israel differently than the church. Not something that is long held but rather something that I've read about in the last year or two. They are His chosen people and for the most part have always turned their back to God. I can't pretend to know all the facts about it, I haven't studied it very deeply, but while we are grafted together as one new man so to speak, what is so weird about the concept of God perhaps dealing with Israel a little differently than Gentiles?

I don't see where it would be heretical or anything like that, liken it to having two children, a boy and a girl. You love both and would die for both, yet deal with them slightly differently. ?? But on the other hand, if anyone wants to pray for me, feel free. I can use all the prayer I can get. I wasn't even sure of the term dispinsationalist (?) and had to look it up, lol. Labels, gah!

I've looked it up in the past, too. :wink

dis·pen·sa·tion (d

s

p

n-s

sh

n, -p

n-)
n.
1.
a. The act of dispensing.
b. Something dispensed.
c. A specific arrangement or system by which something is dispensed.
2. An exemption or release from an obligation or rule, granted by or as if by an authority.
3.
a. An exemption from a church law, a vow, or another similar obligation granted in a particular case by an ecclesiastical authority.
b. The document containing this exemption.
4. Theology
a. The divine ordering of worldly affairs.
b. A religious system or code of commands considered to have been divinely revealed or appointed.

Eph_1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph_3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

I don't believe God in this dispensation deals any differently with a genetic Jew or a genetic Gentile. We are all one in the Body of Christ, the Church or not. In fact, it is becoming clear there is more mixture of the two than we knew in earlier times.
I believe in scripture God has made it clear that His chosen people are those who follow Him whether they be genetic Jew or genetic Gentile. Whether they lived under the old covenant or the new.
The nation of Israel was suppose to be a light to the Gentile world. In the story about Naomi and Ruth, Naomi is a light of God's love to Ruth, a Moabite woman. So much so that Ruth says, "your God shall be my God". Then we see the picture of the kinsman redeemer Boaz, a type of Christ.
In Romans, Paul explains how the Christian Church is to bring the unbelieving Jews into His Body, the Church. How? By setting an example, that they will be jealous of the Christian Church's relationship with God.
So in this dispensation of grace where God has said, He reconciled the world to Himself through Christ. There is only Christ, His Body, and all the nations of the world, including the State of Israel. One is either in the Body or in the world. This is the dispensation of grace (the system), God reconciling the world to Himself.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I do not believe that the Christian Church replaced the Chosen People of Israel. I believe that the chosen people of Israel were always those who had a true relationship with God, the Remanent. Just as Paul says and so it is today.

 

[JLB]

I've looked it up in the past, too. :wink

dis·pen·sa·tion (d

s

p

n-s

sh

n, -p

n-)
n.
1.
a. The act of dispensing.
b. Something dispensed.
c. A specific arrangement or system by which something is dispensed.
2. An exemption or release from an obligation or rule, granted by or as if by an authority.
3.
a. An exemption from a church law, a vow, or another similar obligation granted in a particular case by an ecclesiastical authority.
b. The document containing this exemption.
4. Theology
a. The divine ordering of worldly affairs.
b. A religious system or code of commands considered to have been divinely revealed or appointed.

Eph_1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph_3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

I don't believe God in this dispensation deals any differently with a genetic Jew or a genetic Gentile. We are all one in the Body of Christ, the Church. In fact, it is becoming clear there is more mixture of the two than we knew in earlier times.
I believe in scripture God has made it clear that His chosen people are those who follow Him whether they be genetic Jew or genetic Gentile. Whether they lived under the old covenant or the new.
The nation of Israel was suppose to be a light to the Gentile world. In the story about Naomi and Ruth, Naomi is a light of God's love to Ruth, a Moabite woman. So much so that Ruth says, "your God shall be my God". Then we see the picture of the kinsman redeemer Boaz, a type of Christ.
In Romans, Paul explains how the Christian Church is to bring the unbelieving Jews into His Body, the Church. How? By setting an example, that they will be jealous of the Christian Church's relationship with God.
So in this dispensation of grace where God has said, He reconciled the world to Himself through Christ. There is only Christ, His Body, and all the nations of the world, including the State of Israel. One is either in the Body or in the world. This is the dispensation of grace (the system), God reconciling the world to Himself.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


I do not believe that the Christian Church replaced the Chosen People of Israel. I believe that the chosen people of Israel were always those who had a true relationship with God, the Remanent. Just as Paul says and so it is today.

So a dispensationalist is someone who dispenses God's divine word for ordering their life in line with the code of God's Kingdom for righteousness.

Sounds Good.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

So a dispensationalist is someone who dispenses God's divine word for ordering their life in line with the code of God's Kingdom for righteousness.

Sounds Good.


JLB

I think it depends on how one is using the word dispensationalist compared to a dispensation.
. Theology
a. The divine ordering of worldly affairs.
b. A religious system or code of commands considered to have been divinely revealed or appointed.

By the definition in the sense of ( b ) I agree.

 

[Dan00]

I also do have a loosely held belief that the Lord does deal with Israel differently than the church. Not something that is long held but rather something that I've read about in the last year or two. They are His chosen people and for the most part have always turned their back to God. I can't pretend to know all the facts about it, I haven't studied it very deeply, but while we are grafted together as one new man so to speak, what is so weird about the concept of God perhaps dealing with Israel a little differently than Gentiles?

He doesn't.

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus... There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:22,26,28-29)

We, of the faith, are all children of God, are all Abraham's seed, and are all heirs of the promise. Those of Israel who reject the Lord, he explains this way:

"... I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." (Rev 2:9)

The first thing I would ask myself when reading that verse is: who worships in synagogues and blasphemes Christ? John wrote about them this way:

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." (John 8:44)

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." (2 Jn 1:7)

"... the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world." (Rev 12:9)

"... Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth... And they went up on the breadth of the [the entire] earth, and compassed the camp of the saints [on heavenly mount Sion] about, and the beloved city [New Jerusalem, the Church]: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." (Rev 20:7-10)

Also, when Jerusalem was destroyed:

"... for by thy sorceries [Jerusalem] were all nations deceived." (Rev 18:23)

Antichristian Jews are not antichrist like, say, a buddhist. They are mean, nasty, and they despise Christians.

So, maybe you are right. He does treat them differently. God help them.

Notwithstanding Mosaic law and much Jewish tradition, other than that the only difference is that on the night of the last supper Jesus announced the new covenant.

I believe it also important to remember that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant:

"Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." (Acts 3:25-26)

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament (covenant,) that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament (old covenant,) they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." (Heb 9:15)

The old covenant could not possibly have been fulfilled through Israel. They were an isolated, Gentile-shunning nation. Only through another mediator, which is Christ, could the covenant be fulfilled in giving the Gentiles "equal" status, and, therefore, receive the blessings of the promise. I use the word "equal" loosely, because the foundation and chief cornerstone of Christianity were all Jews.

Dan

 

[Dan00]

If you believe that bible is separated into an "old testament" and a "new testament". You are a dispensationalist. Hyper-dispensationalist is what to watch out for. It is clear that God dispenses grace, salvation, righteousness through more than one way.

I am not sure I would word it that way. Paul separated the old and new testaments:

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." (Heb 9:15)

In that chapter, Hebrews 9, Paul distinguishes between the old and new covenants (or, testaments, if you will.)

Dan

 

[Eugene]

I am not sure I would word it that way. Paul separated the old and new testaments:

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." (Heb 9:15)

In that chapter, Hebrews 9, Paul distinguishes between the old and new covenants (or, testaments, if you will

Yeah He did, and by direct revelation by our risen Lord, that which he preached was distinguished by him as a dispensation. Again I'll say the Apostle Paul spoke of a dispensation of the gospel, one of the fullness of times, and one to fulfill the gospel. Did he also make known that wonderful gospel of grace unknown by most until Jesus through him professed it?

 

[JLB]

Dan 00 wrote -

He doesn't.

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus... There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:22,26,28-29)

We, of the faith, are all children of God, are all Abraham's seed, and are all heirs of the promise. Those of Israel who reject the Lord, he explains this way:

"... I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." (Rev 2:9)

The first thing I would ask myself when reading that verse is: who worships in synagogues and blasphemes Christ? John wrote about them this way:

That say they are Jews but are not.

This verse is saying that those who are not Jews are of the synagogue of Satan.

Your post seems to insinuate that Jews are the antichrist's.

A true Jew is one who is a Jew inwardly.

I am not sure I would word it that way. Paul separated the old and new testaments:

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." (Heb 9:15)

In that chapter, Hebrews 9, Paul distinguishes between the old and new covenants (or, testaments, if you will.)

Dan

The New Covenant is the Abrahamic Covenant that was made between the Lord [Jesus] and Abraham, confirmed by the blood of Jesus.


JLB

 

[Lloyd]

Interesting...

I guess since the historians have said it, it must be true right? They've managed to tie up events of Revelation with accurate events of 70AD and there was me thinking the Bible was the authorative Word? I guess I should cross reference it first with these historians to see if it fits. It's funny though, there's a few other topics that seem to present near 100% accurate evidence of an event - maybe we should start believing them too? How about evolution? I'm sure I've seen a few writings that seem to make a really good case? How about the earth being billions of years old? I'm sure there's some evidence out there somewhere? Then again, I could always follow Darwin, he seems like a bright chap? You see, we live by faith, not by sight, so cross referencing the Bible against anything proves NOTHING. It is only the Bible that is 100% truth. Pick up your Bible and put down the history journals.

 

[JLB]

He doesn't.

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus... There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:22,26,28-29)

We, of the faith, are all children of God, are all Abraham's seed, and are all heirs of the promise. Those of Israel who reject the Lord, he explains this way:

"... I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." (Rev 2:9)

The first thing I would ask myself when reading that verse is: who worships in synagogues and blasphemes Christ? John wrote about them this way:

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." (John 8:44)

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." (2 Jn 1:7)

"... the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world." (Rev 12:9)

"... Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth... And they went up on the breadth of the [the entire] earth, and compassed the camp of the saints [on heavenly mount Sion] about, and the beloved city [New Jerusalem, the Church]: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." (Rev 20:7-10)

Also, when Jerusalem was destroyed:

"... for by thy sorceries [Jerusalem] were all nations deceived." (Rev 18:23)

Antichristian Jews are not antichrist like, say, a buddhist. They are mean, nasty, and they despise Christians.

So, maybe you are right. He does treat them differently. God help them.



I believe it also important to remember that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant:

"Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." (Acts 3:25-26)

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament (covenant,) that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament (old
covenant,) they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." (Heb 9:15)

The old covenant could not possibly have been fulfilled through Israel. They were an isolated, Gentile-shunning nation. Only through another mediator, which is Christ, could the covenant be fulfilled in giving the Gentiles "equal" status, and, therefore, receive the blessings of the promise. I use the word "equal" loosely, because the foundation and chief cornerstone of Christianity were all Jews.

Dan

"... for by thy sorceries [Jerusalem] were all nations deceived." (Rev 18:23)

Babylon deceives the nations not Jerusalem.

Babylon Mystery Religion.

Jerusalem is the city of The Great King.

 

[JLB]

Interesting...

I guess since the historians have said it, it must be true right? They've managed to tie up events of Revelation with accurate events of 70AD and there was me thinking the Bible was the authorative Word? I guess I should cross reference it first with these historians to see if it fits. It's funny though, there's a few other topics that seem to present near 100% accurate evidence of an event - maybe we should start believing them too? How about evolution? I'm sure I've seen a few writings that seem to make a really good case? How about the earth being billions of years old? I'm sure there's some evidence out there somewhere? Then again, I could always follow Darwin, he seems like a bright chap? You see, we live by faith, not by sight, so cross referencing the Bible against anything proves NOTHING. It is only the Bible that is 100% truth. Pick up your Bible and put down the history journals.

 

[Deborah13]

Interesting...

I guess since the historians have said it, it must be true right? They've managed to tie up events of Revelation with accurate events of 70AD and there was me thinking the Bible was the authorative Word? I guess I should cross reference it first with these historians to see if it fits. It's funny though, there's a few other topics that seem to present near 100% accurate evidence of an event - maybe we should start believing them too? How about evolution? I'm sure I've seen a few writings that seem to make a really good case? How about the earth being billions of years old? I'm sure there's some evidence out there somewhere? Then again, I could always follow Darwin, he seems like a bright chap? You see, we live by faith, not by sight, so cross referencing the Bible against anything proves NOTHING. It is only the Bible that is 100% truth. Pick up your Bible and put down the history journals.

interesting......

If we didn't have the written words of those who were there, history, when our Lord walked this earth and died, and the OT written words by the Jews, we wouldn't have the Bible we read everyday.
When an archeologist finds the very first written on stone, name of King David proving to the world that he wasn't a mythical being, I suppose we shouldn't take notice and we shouldn't use that information to witness to unbelievers.
When science keeps pointing to a Divine Creator we should ignore that too. Even though atheist scientists have become believers.
Scientists recently found that a beautiful fish in a lake in Africa morphed twice over a period of less than forty yrs., from a larger head with a shorter tail, to a shorter head with a longer tail and then back again proving that environmental changes can cause very quick changes in the same specie. Proving that it doesn't take millions of yrs for this to happen. Isn't our God amazing. He takes care of the little fish in the lake as well as the sparrow.

Blessings

 

[JLB]

interesting......

If we didn't have the written words of those who were there, history, when our Lord walked this earth and died, and the OT written words by the Jews, we wouldn't have the Bible we read everyday.
When an archeologist finds the very first written on stone, name of King David proving to the world that he wasn't a mythical being, I suppose we shouldn't take notice and we shouldn't use that information to witness to unbelievers.
When science keeps pointing to a Divine Creator we should ignore that too. Even though atheist scientists have become believers.
Scientists recently found that a beautiful fish in a lake in Africa morphed twice over a period of less than forty yrs., from a larger head with a shorter tail, to a shorter head with a longer tail and then back again proving that environmental changes can cause very quick changes in the same specie. Proving that it doesn't take millions of yrs for this to happen. Isn't our God amazing. He takes care of the little fish in the lake as well as the sparrow.

Blessings

When science or History contradict the scriptures it is then we as believers we must choose the truth over mans opinion.

Isn't God great.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

When science or History contradict the scriptures it is then we as believers we must choose the truth over mans opinion.

Isn't God great.


JLB

I completely agree with your statement!

Yes, God is great!

Blessings to you