TanNinety said:
Thank you guys for your responses. I still seem to be on the fence with the pre-existence of Jesus.
If Jesus were a heavenly angelic being prior to His earthly birth, this seems possible. But my reservations about this are, when He was born that He possessed both His spirit and earthly flesh body. Because that falls right into the category of Trinitarian explanation of how Jesus was limited in His flesh and unlimited in His spirit both at the
same time.
Philippians 2:6 who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God, 7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, 8 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross,
It seems reasonable that He was in the form of God, a heavenly spiritual being, but emptied Himself, and was made a man. Jesus was as much a man as you and I were. He wasn’t some semi-spirit semi-flesh or full-spirit full-flesh(like the Trinitarians claim) but totally came in the flesh. Now the same transformation that He went through from spirit to man is what He went through at His resurrection as He went back to where He came from. That is the reason why I believe Jesus had to grow in stature, increase in wisdom, had to have the holy spirit rest upon Him, because when He came as a man He was completely a man and emptied Himself totally of His heavenly spiritual body.
Flip side of the coin, If Christ was indeed an angelic being before His earthly human birth. Why would …
[quote:0b241] Hebrew 1:5 For unto
which of the angels said HE(God) at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hebrew 1:13 But to
which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
…read that way if God never said that to any of His angles but Jesus was indeed an angelic being?
The above sent me back on the fence. There is more compelling evidence that Jesus pre-existed but I cant seem to get myself out of the knot of Hebrews 1.[/quote:0b241]
Tan Ninety
The very scripture that many Unitarians use to try and plead their case is the very scripture that Paul uses to affirm the deity of Christ.
In order that I do not take this scripture out of contex like unitarians do, here is Col 1:15-18
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
The New King James Version. 1982 (Col 1:15-18). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
Here is some commentary on what it means.
1:15–20 One component in the heresy threatening the Colossian church was the denial of the deity of Christ. Paul combats that damning element of heresy with an emphatic defense of Christ’s deity.
1:15 The Gr. word for “image†is eikōn, from which the Eng. word “icon†derives. It means, “copy†or “likeness.†Jesus Christ is the perfect imageâ€â€the exact likenessâ€â€of God and is in the very form of God (Phil. 2:6; cf. John 1:14; 14:9), and has been so from all eternity. By describing Jesus in this manner, Paul emphasizes that He is both the representation and manifestation of God. Thus, He is fully God in every way (cf. 2:9; John 8:58; 10:30–33; Heb. 1:8). the firstborn over all creation. Cf. v. 18. The Gr. word for “firstborn†can refer to one who was born first chronologically, but most often refers to pre-eminence in position, or rank (see note on Heb. 1:6; cf. Rom. 8:29). In both Greek and Jewish culture, the firstborn was the ranking son who had received the right of inheritance from his father, whether he was born first or not. It is used of Israel who, not being the first nation, was however the preeminent nation (cf. Ex. 4:22; Jer. 31:9). Firstborn in this context clearly means highest in rank, not first created (cf. Ps. 89:27; Rev. 1:5) for several reasons: 1) Christ cannot be both “first begotten†and “only begotten†(cf. John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9); 2) when the “firstborn†is one of a class, the class is in the plural form (cf. v. 18; Rom. 8:29), but “creation,†the class here, is in a singular form; 3) if Paul was teaching that Christ was a created being, he was agreeing with the heresy he was writing to refute; and 4) it is impossible for Christ to be both created, and the Creator of everything (v. 16). Thus Jesus is the firstborn in the sense that He has the preeminence (v. 18) and possesses the right of inheritance “over all creation†(cf. Heb. 1:2; Rev. 5:1–7, 13). He existed before the creation and is exalted in rank above it.
1:16 Thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. Cf. 2:15; Rom. 8:38; Eph. 1:21; 3:10; 6:12; 1 Pet. 3:22; Jude 6. These are various categories of angels whom Christ created and rules over. There is no comment regarding whether they are holy or fallen, since He is Lord of both groups. The false teachers had incorporated into their heresy the worship of angels, including the lie that Jesus was one of them, merely a spirit created by God and inferior to Him. Paul rejected that and made it clear that angels, whatever their rank, whether holy or fallen, are mere creatures, and their Creator is none other than the preeminent One, the Lord Savior, Jesus Christ. The purpose of His catalog of angelic ranks is to show the immeasurable superiority of Christ over any being the false teachers might suggest. All things were created through Him and for Him. Cf. Rom. 11:33–36. See notes on John 1:3; Heb. 1:2. As God, Jesus created the material and spiritual universe for His pleasure and glory.
1:17 He is before all things. When the universe had its beginning, Christ already existed, thus by definition He must be eternal (Mic. 5:2; John 1:1, 2; 8:58; 1 John 1:1; Rev. 22:13). consist. Lit. “to hold together.†Christ sustains the universe, maintaining the power and balance necessary to life’s existence and continuity (cf. Heb. 1:3).
1:18 head of the body. Cf. 2:19. Paul uses the human body as a metaphor for the church, of which Christ serves as the “head.†Just as a body is controlled from the brain, so Christ controls every part of the church and gives it life and direction. Cf. Eph. 4:15; 5:23.. This refers to both source and preeminence. The church had its origins in the Lord Jesus (Eph. 1:4), and He gave life to the church through His sacrificial death and resurrection to become its Sovereign. the firstborn from the dead. See note on v. 15. Jesus was the first chronologically to be resurrected, never to die again. Of all who have been or ever will be raised from the dead, and that includes all men (John 5:28, 29), Christ is supreme ; Phil. 2:8–11).
I really hope this makes sense to you. I will work On Hebrews Chapter 1 for you also where that chapter enforces the fact that Jesus is GOD (not created)
and how superior he is to everything created.
Gob Bless you and I pray his holy spirit will reveal himself to you in this study and may you find his son Jesus the Logos
