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Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

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The Disciples who sat with Jesus on the Mt. of Olives in Matthew 24:3 asked Him three questions, when shall these things be, what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? These three questions are now revealed to us as the Spirit of God has revealed them to John who told him to write these revelation visions down and give them to the Church for instruction and understanding. Matthew 24 is an outline of all things that will come to pass that is revealed in full in Revelations before that of Christ return for His Bride. This events are called the great and terrible day of the Lord.

There was a question asked in Revelation 6:17 about the great day of His wrath is come and who shall be able to stand? Part of this question is answered in Nahum Chapter One for one example as there are many scriptures detailing Gods great vengeance against His enemies and His mercy on those who are called by His name having the seal of God on them, Ephesians 4:30. Matthew 24 gives us an outline and Revelations gives us the meaning of the outline.

The spirit of Jezebel runs rampant throughout the land spreading lies from the pulpit that seem pleasing to the ears as many would rather believe their Pastor instead of searching and Spiritually discern what they are being taught, Matthew 7: 21-23, John 3-3-7; Acts 19:1-6; Romans 10:9, 10; 1 John 4:1-6.

The first four seals in Revelations are the beginning of sorrows described in Matthew 24:4-26 before that of Christ return. There are three woes to come after the beginning of sorrows. The first woe is found in Rev Chapter 8-9 with the first six trumpets. The second woe is that of the two witnesses in Rev Chapter 11:1-14 as the preaching of Gods word has come to an end as the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled in the last person repenting and turning back to God. The third woe begins with the seventh trumpet in Rev 11:15 and it comes quickly.

The Church, which represents the bride of Christ, will face seeing much tribulation as it will be hard to bare seeing Gods wrath on the unjust as we are sent out to preach to them before we enter into the kingdom of God. There are many false teachings that teach we are taken out of here before some seven year Great Tribulation, but there is no scripture that speaks of a seven year Great Tribulation. Some also teach that after Rev Chapter 4 the Church is no longer here on earth. If this were the case then why did Jesus say that those who endure until the end will be saved. The end of what, the end of days or as scripture calls it that great and terrible day of the Lord when final judgment will be passed as the Sheep are separated from the goats and the goats are cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and false prophets.

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation, but not to fear what must come, but stand strong in the Holy Place, which is the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord and be His witnesses as a faithful servant until He comes for His Bride.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is showing us to look for the signs of his coming

Rev 5:13; 6:16,17 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were and we are in the midst of the seven seals right now heading towards the seven trumpets

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation; fulfillment of the gentiles

Rev 8:13 Three woes are war, earthquakes, and meteors

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about Papal Rome ruling the world again as a one world government. 666 represents action of the hands and thoughts of the mind

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. We can only repent through Gods Spirit and if that Spirit dwells in the hearts of the believers then who would be left for anyone to repent if they wanted to if we were already gone as faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation of Papal Rome’s rule (not Catholics). This is Gods rapture of his bride or as scripture calls it being caught up to meet Jesus in the air

Rev 19:7,8 We have made ourselves ready by enduring great tribulations, even to death; we had to go through before the end of days

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until Jesus came back in the clouds for us

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth
 
The Disciples who sat with Jesus on the Mt. of Olives in Matthew 24:3 asked Him three questions, when shall these things be, what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? These three questions are now revealed to us as the Spirit of God has revealed them to John who told him to write these revelation visions down and give them to the Church for instruction and understanding. Matthew 24 is an outline of all things that will come to pass that is revealed in full in Revelations before that of Christ return for His Bride. This events are called the great and terrible day of the Lord.

There was a question asked in Revelation 6:17 about the great day of His wrath is come and who shall be able to stand? Part of this question is answered in Nahum Chapter One for one example as there are many scriptures detailing Gods great vengeance against His enemies and His mercy on those who are called by His name having the seal of God on them, Ephesians 4:30. Matthew 24 gives us an outline and Revelations gives us the meaning of the outline.

The spirit of Jezebel runs rampant throughout the land spreading lies from the pulpit that seem pleasing to the ears as many would rather believe their Pastor instead of searching and Spiritually discern what they are being taught, Matthew 7: 21-23, John 3-3-7; Acts 19:1-6; Romans 10:9, 10; 1 John 4:1-6.

The first four seals in Revelations are the beginning of sorrows described in Matthew 24:4-26 before that of Christ return. There are three woes to come after the beginning of sorrows. The first woe is found in Rev Chapter 8-9 with the first six trumpets. The second woe is that of the two witnesses in Rev Chapter 11:1-14 as the preaching of Gods word has come to an end as the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled in the last person repenting and turning back to God. The third woe begins with the seventh trumpet in Rev 11:15 and it comes quickly.

The Church, which represents the bride of Christ, will face seeing much tribulation as it will be hard to bare seeing Gods wrath on the unjust as we are sent out to preach to them before we enter into the kingdom of God. There are many false teachings that teach we are taken out of here before some seven year Great Tribulation, but there is no scripture that speaks of a seven year Great Tribulation. Some also teach that after Rev Chapter 4 the Church is no longer here on earth. If this were the case then why did Jesus say that those who endure until the end will be saved. The end of what, the end of days or as scripture calls it that great and terrible day of the Lord when final judgment will be passed as the Sheep are separated from the goats and the goats are cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and false prophets.

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation, but not to fear what must come, but stand strong in the Holy Place, which is the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord and be His witnesses as a faithful servant until He comes for His Bride.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is showing us to look for the signs of his coming

Rev 5:13; 6:16,17 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were and we are in the midst of the seven seals right now heading towards the seven trumpets

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation; fulfillment of the gentiles

Rev 8:13 Three woes are war, earthquakes, and meteors

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about Papal Rome ruling the world again as a one world government. 666 represents action of the hands and thoughts of the mind

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. We can only repent through Gods Spirit and if that Spirit dwells in the hearts of the believers then who would be left for anyone to repent if they wanted to if we were already gone as faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation of Papal Rome’s rule (not Catholics). This is Gods rapture of his bride or as scripture calls it being caught up to meet Jesus in the air

Rev 19:7,8 We have made ourselves ready by enduring great tribulations, even to death; we had to go through before the end of days

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until Jesus came back in the clouds for us

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth
And I say a great Amen to your post!
Also want to add that in Mark 13: and Matt.24: is the 7 trumps....
 
Hi dianegcook. Also in Luke 21 so we have three witnesses, Matthew, Mark and Luke even though in Luke it looks more like it's directed to the Disciples until you read vs.25 and know this is not only directed to them, but to all until the great and terrible day of the Lord.
 
I'm sorry but you have removed these scriptures from their context to arrive at your erroneous conclusion. To begin, the context of the Christian Bible is one context from "In the beginning..." through the very last word of The Revelation chapter 22. to arrive at any understanding of the matter concerning The Rapture (The Catching Away) you must include;
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17English Standard Version (ESV)
14 For that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

To arrive where you are, at this time, you must remove this First Thessalonians passage from the scriptures and I am certainly not one to tell God how to properly construct His Bible. god says the Rapture will occur!
 
First I ask all to not use slanderous accusation type words like erroneous conclusion as I want this to be a discussion and not to slander anyone's belief. Bill you know I think highly of you as a friend in here and have never had a problem with you and would like to keep it that way. :hug

I have not left out 1 Thessalonians 4:4-17 as that will come later as I only posted a small amount as the rest of what I have written on this is to lengthy for a forum, but I will address this.

Matthew 24:29-31; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1Corinthians 15:51, 52 all talk about the last trumpet of God, which is the same trumpet of Revelation 11:15-19, and declares final judgment, which is the end of the world. Revelation 10:7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. The words, should be finished, means the end of this world.

What does the last trumpet mean to you as I have heard people talk about two trumpets but have never given scripture to support that.
 
First I ask all to not use slanderous accusation type words like erroneous conclusion as I want this to be a discussion and not to slander anyone's belief. Bill you know I think highly of you as a friend in here and have never had a problem with you and would like to keep it that way. :hug

I have not left out 1 Thessalonians 4:4-17 as that will come later as I only posted a small amount as the rest of what I have written on this is to lengthy for a forum, but I will address this.

Matthew 24:29-31; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1Corinthians 15:51, 52 all talk about the last trumpet of God, which is the same trumpet of Revelation 11:15-19, and declares final judgment, which is the end of the world. Revelation 10:7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. The words, should be finished, means the end of this world.

What does the last trumpet mean to you as I have heard people talk about two trumpets but have never given scripture to support that.
No your wrong. The very moment you cannot tell me I have erred or I cannot tell you you have erred, and an erroneous conclusion is just that, an error and has nothing to with my slandering anything nor anybody, it just an error of conclusion and all, every one of us is prone to do that. Neither I nor you are spiritually adept enough to deny Romans 3:10 applies to us, it does, none of us are perfect as our LORD is.

And once more no. Between the Rapture that is true no matter how you deal with the Thess. passage I quoted, there will be the Rapture of the Saints and after that Trump is sounded there must come a thousand years of the Righteous reign of Jesus and His Saints (Dan. 7:13,14 & Matt. 19:28) and because the Lost stand the Great White Throne Judgement, about 10 centuries later, there will be a final resurrection at or very near to the end and the renewal of the World.
 
I am, in no manner wanting a fight but if you want to lead a Bible study,, you must never expect obedient Androids only to participate.
 
No your wrong. The very moment you cannot tell me I have erred or I cannot tell you you have erred, and an erroneous conclusion is just that, an error and has nothing to with my slandering anything nor anybody, it just an error of conclusion and all, every one of us is prone to do that. Neither I nor you are spiritually adept enough to deny Romans 3:10 applies to us, it does, none of us are perfect as our LORD is.

And once more no. Between the Rapture that is true no matter how you deal with the Thess. passage I quoted, there will be the Rapture of the Saints and after that Trump is sounded there must come a thousand years of the Righteous reign of Jesus and His Saints (Dan. 7:13,14 & Matt. 19:28) and because the Lost stand the Great White Throne Judgement, about 10 centuries later, there will be a final resurrection at or very near to the end and the renewal of the World.

To each one they have to make up their own mind of what they want to believe and by no means am I righteous on my own, but made righteous through that of Gods righteousness. The whole purpose of this thread is to show there is no pretrib rapture. There will be rapture or as scripture calls it in 1Thess 4:17 caught up to meet Jesus in the air as both mean the same thing. This will not take place until after the last vile judgment in Rev Chapter 16 and the great harlot is destroyed. This is what I am trying to teach others as even I at one time use to believe in a pretrib rapture, but something about how it was taught just didn't sit well in my spirit as I compared scripture with scripture, OT with NT.

Why would Jesus come in the clouds to take us home to paradise just to bring us back to an evil earth for another 1000 years. I have to go for now, but will continue to address this at a later date as I will not be home until tomorrow evening late.
 
Will God only love up to 1000 generations and not 1001 generations?.

Will Christ only reign 1000 years and not 1001 years?

Is a day only likened to 1000 years and not 1001 years?

These have no limits. I believe Christs 1000 year reign is eternal.
 
Will God only love up to 1000 generations and not 1001 generations?.

Will Christ only reign 1000 years and not 1001 years?

Is a day only likened to 1000 years and not 1001 years?

These have no limits. I believe Christs 1000 year reign is eternal.

Yep:thumbsup
 
To each one they have to make up their own mind of what they want to believe and by no means am I righteous on my own, but made righteous through that of Gods righteousness. The whole purpose of this thread is to show there is no pretrib rapture. There will be rapture or as scripture calls it in 1Thess 4:17 caught up to meet Jesus in the air as both mean the same thing. This will not take place until after the last vile judgment in Rev Chapter 16 and the great harlot is destroyed. This is what I am trying to teach others as even I at one time use to believe in a pretrib rapture, but something about how it was taught just didn't sit well in my spirit as I compared scripture with scripture, OT with NT.

Why would Jesus come in the clouds to take us home to paradise just to bring us back to an evil earth for another 1000 years. I have to go for now, but will continue to address this at a later date as I will not be home until tomorrow evening late.
Then, had you not gotten slick with the title we would never have had this exchange, at all. But, at this point there are two righteous avenues of escape from this error and one is just toi stupid to endure. The logiical is to make a closing statement and refuse to comment in this string again or make a statement, the one you just posted would be fine, and then post it on eevery subsequent page of the discussion that others are not, as I was, misled about the topic of the thread.

Just thinking, there is, possibly, a third option, if the operating software will permit it and the admins are willing to be troubled. that would be ashorter clarification of the title to become a sticky or one I know can be done from experience, have a mod to change the title because the titloe of this string declares an untruth that makes a righteous believers neck hair become agitated.
 
The Disciples who sat with Jesus on the Mt. of Olives in Matthew 24:3 asked Him three questions, when shall these things be, what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? These three questions are now revealed to us as the Spirit of God has revealed them to John who told him to write these revelation visions down and give them to the Church for instruction and understanding. Matthew 24 is an outline of all things that will come to pass that is revealed in full in Revelations before that of Christ return for His Bride. This events are called the great and terrible day of the Lord.

There was a question asked in Revelation 6:17 about the great day of His wrath is come and who shall be able to stand? Part of this question is answered in Nahum Chapter One for one example as there are many scriptures detailing Gods great vengeance against His enemies and His mercy on those who are called by His name having the seal of God on them, Ephesians 4:30. Matthew 24 gives us an outline and Revelations gives us the meaning of the outline.

The spirit of Jezebel runs rampant throughout the land spreading lies from the pulpit that seem pleasing to the ears as many would rather believe their Pastor instead of searching and Spiritually discern what they are being taught, Matthew 7: 21-23, John 3-3-7; Acts 19:1-6; Romans 10:9, 10; 1 John 4:1-6.

The first four seals in Revelations are the beginning of sorrows described in Matthew 24:4-26 before that of Christ return. There are three woes to come after the beginning of sorrows. The first woe is found in Rev Chapter 8-9 with the first six trumpets. The second woe is that of the two witnesses in Rev Chapter 11:1-14 as the preaching of Gods word has come to an end as the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled in the last person repenting and turning back to God. The third woe begins with the seventh trumpet in Rev 11:15 and it comes quickly.

The Church, which represents the bride of Christ, will face seeing much tribulation as it will be hard to bare seeing Gods wrath on the unjust as we are sent out to preach to them before we enter into the kingdom of God. There are many false teachings that teach we are taken out of here before some seven year Great Tribulation, but there is no scripture that speaks of a seven year Great Tribulation. Some also teach that after Rev Chapter 4 the Church is no longer here on earth. If this were the case then why did Jesus say that those who endure until the end will be saved. The end of what, the end of days or as scripture calls it that great and terrible day of the Lord when final judgment will be passed as the Sheep are separated from the goats and the goats are cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and false prophets.

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation, but not to fear what must come, but stand strong in the Holy Place, which is the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord and be His witnesses as a faithful servant until He comes for His Bride.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is showing us to look for the signs of his coming

Rev 5:13; 6:16,17 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were and we are in the midst of the seven seals right now heading towards the seven trumpets

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation; fulfillment of the gentiles

Rev 8:13 Three woes are war, earthquakes, and meteors

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about Papal Rome ruling the world again as a one world government. 666 represents action of the hands and thoughts of the mind

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. We can only repent through Gods Spirit and if that Spirit dwells in the hearts of the believers then who would be left for anyone to repent if they wanted to if we were already gone as faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation of Papal Rome’s rule (not Catholics). This is Gods rapture of his bride or as scripture calls it being caught up to meet Jesus in the air

Rev 19:7,8 We have made ourselves ready by enduring great tribulations, even to death; we had to go through before the end of days

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until Jesus came back in the clouds for us

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth


Amen! :salute :thumbsup

I would add that it is the Pre-Trib Rapture that is not scriptural.

The Resurrection and Rapture are One event that happens at His coming.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17



JLB
 
Then, had you not gotten slick with the title we would never have had this exchange, at all. But, at this point there are two righteous avenues of escape from this error and one is just toi stupid to endure. The logiical is to make a closing statement and refuse to comment in this string again or make a statement, the one you just posted would be fine, and then post it on eevery subsequent page of the discussion that others are not, as I was, misled about the topic of the thread.

Just thinking, there is, possibly, a third option, if the operating software will permit it and the admins are willing to be troubled. that would be ashorter clarification of the title to become a sticky or one I know can be done from experience, have a mod to change the title because the titloe of this string declares an untruth that makes a righteous believers neck hair become agitated.

Thank you Bill as I see your point and ask the mods if they could change the title as it was misleading so hopefully we can start afresh.
The new title will be Pretrib Rapture is not Scriptural
 
Thank you Bill as I see your point and ask the mods if they could change the title as it was misleading so hopefully we can start afresh.
The new title will be Pretrib Rapture is not Scriptural
If they will do that for you, I, just, might engage you in a non-salvic discussion on the matter even though most of these discussions end for me with my statement, "I'll wave at you when we rise to meet Him in the sky."
 
Will God only love up to 1000 generations and not 1001 generations?.

Will Christ only reign 1000 years and not 1001 years?

Is a day only likened to 1000 years and not 1001 years?

These have no limits. I believe Christs 1000 year reign is eternal.

1000 is used as a generic number and here not to be taken literal.

2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
 
I think pre-trib is ridiculous.


NEuDVjwIU6Amyx_2_b.jpg
 
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1000 is used as a generic number and here not to be taken literal.

2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Dan, I lean toward agreeing with FHG on the thousand year reign and one working with the Revelation of Jesus and not working from a better than casual grip on the Old Testament will easily fall into a pit. The Revelation is composed and recorded in the manor that the Old Testament is and when we see Psalm fifty, verse ten we must undefrstand it means every hill in the world.

As for this pertaining to the Eternal Reign of the LORD, His Eternal Reign, I disagree. As tough as it is to find the Local or Micro Context of the Revelation, there does come the Great White Thronethings Judgement (Rev. 20:11-15) and then we must deal with these passages in the pattern of completion demonstrated through out scripture. God has without failure shown us He considers completion within the frame of sevens.

As much as I despise Numerology God begins the record by declaring the world complete on the seventh day and never breaks that pattern set in Genesis 1-3 throughout scripture.

And we do see the earth in destruction at the end of the, foretold, Thousand year reign. And then it is foretold the recreation of the World made perfect and Heaven descending from the third heaven through the second heaven to reside on the New Earth.
[New American Standard Bible
Rev. 20:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.] This context thing can be very difficult to grasp and is only completed by me with the guidense of the Holy Spirit. No Preacher ever helped me to see these things.
 
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