Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[for_his_glory]

I am, in no manner wanting a fight but if you want to lead a Bible study,, you must never expect obedient Androids only to participate.

What I do expect is maturity, love and respect for how each of us believe and I don't think that is to much to ask

 

[for_his_glory]

Apart from the typo, it is one thing to say "I don't believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture" and another thing entirely to say "Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural".

Actually, Scripture supports a Pre-Tribulation Rapture much more strongly than any other view. I would challenge anyone to show even one Bible verse that connects the Rapture to the Tribulation.

Could you please share the scriptures where it speaks of a pretrb rapture as I have never found any. I already posted those scriptures that say the Church (body of Christ) will be here during the seven trumpet and vial judgments until the end of days, but will post them again.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is showing us to look for the signs of his coming

Rev 5:13; 6:16,17 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were and we are in the midst of the seven seals right now heading towards the seven trumpets

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation; fulfillment of the gentiles

Rev 8:13 Three woes are war, earthquakes, and meteors

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about Papal Rome ruling the world again as a one world government. 666 represents action of the hands and thoughts of the mind

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. We can only repent through Gods Spirit and if that Spirit dwells in the hearts of the believers then who would be left for anyone to repent if they wanted to if we were already gone as faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation of Papal Rome’s rule (not Catholics). This is Gods rapture of his bride or as scripture calls it being caught up to meet Jesus in the air

Rev 19:7,8 We have made ourselves ready by enduring great tribulations, even to death; we had to go through before the end of days

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until Jesus came back in the clouds for us

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth

 

[turnorburn]

Some times we can say things a better way ... you knucklehead...

i know that.. now I'm stuck with this..

Proverbs 18:19 A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle.

 

[for_his_glory]

Matthew 24 has nothing whatsoever to say about the Church or the Rapture. That is the fundamental mistake of the anti-pre-trib group. In fact, at that stage the apostles did not even have an inkling about the Church, the Bride of Christ. Please note what they asked the Lord just at the point that He was about to return to Heaven, and please note His answer: When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (Acts 1:6,7).

Matthew 24 has everything to do with what will take place in Gods timing. Look at the three questions his disciples ask Jesus as the rest of Matthew 24 was His reply as Revelations goes into full detail as the angel Jesus sent to John gave him all things in a vision as they had not happened yet, but will before Jesus comes back for His Bride.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 

[reba]

i know that.. now I'm stuck with this..

Proverbs 18:19 A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle.

Every one of us has foot-in-mouth flu

View attachment 8640

 

[for_his_glory]

The way I see it..Jesus returns twice. Well, almost returns twice. The first time Jesus stops in the air in the clouds. The second time Jesus is on a horse.
Acts 1:9
9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight

Acts 1: 10They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

So, Jesus comes back the same way as He left...clouds are involved.

1st Thes 4:17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The second time Jesus returns...He's on a horse. Jesus didn't ride a horse into heaven. Acts just proved that.

Rev 19:11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
Zech 14: 4 tells us about Christ "second" arrival...On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

The first return of Christ in the air...is the Pre-Trib rapture of the church.
The second return is Post Trib.

If you go back and read Rev 19:7-14 heaven is rejoicing Babylon's (Present day Papal Rome) destruction and now the marriage supper of the Lamb has come. This means we are now being caught or as some call it Raptured even though the word Rapture is not in the Bible, but means caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds and then the air as air means first heaven, 1Thessalonians 4:16,17, then to her, meaning us being the Bride of Christ are given fine linen, clean and white and return with Jesus as His army that also rides white horses (think this is only symbolic horses, but that doesn't truly matter) return with Jesus as He fights the final battle as the rest of the events from then are are finished very quickly then we will be with the Lord forever in the new Jerusalem.

 

[for_his_glory]

As a general rule I see common rapture doctrine of each persuasion as having too many holes to be satisfactory. The proof is in watching each sides' Christian adherents savage each other in their assertions.

I'm praying the Holy Spirit binds our tongues that we will not savage each other, but have a good discussion on the indifference's as we are not children in the play ground anymore.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Every one of us has foot-in-mouth flu

View attachment 8640

 

[for_his_glory]

Not that simple. Tie in the Day of the Lord to the salvation of the saints, instead of the judgement of the unbelieving and the ungodly.

How can you separate the two as the day of the Lord also means the great and terrible day of the Lord
Great and terrible day of the Lord:
Joel 2:30-32; Malachi 4:5,6Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 6:12; Rev 8:12

Day of the Lord:
Isaiah 13:6; Jeremiah 46:10; Joel 1:15; Amos 5:18; Matthew 24:13-22; 1Thessalonians 5:1-5; 2Peter 3:10; Rev 6:17

 

[for_his_glory]

LAST DAY = RESURRECTION OF JUST + RESURRECTION OF UNJUST

The "last day" is more that 1,000 years long. Please see Revelation 20.

again I ask, why would Jesus come for us to only bring us back to this present evil earth for another 1000 years to be persecuted. Gods timing is not our timing as in days, months and years.
2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[Malachi]

again I ask, why would Jesus come for us to only bring us back to this present evil earth for another 1000 years to be persecuted

I believe you have a basic misunderstanding of the Second Coming of Christ, the Millennium, and the eternal home of the saints. While Christ does bring back His saints with Him at His Second Coming, they do not remain on the earth. The saints will be involved with the judgement of "the world" and also of "angels". We have very little detail about this, but we know it will happen.

But during the Millennium, it is Christ Himself who rules the earth, and during that time there is perfect peace and righteousness on this earth. Also the saints reign with Him. So that "present evil world" will not be there, and Satan and his evil spirits will be bound in the bottomless pit. The important thing to note is that the eternal home of the saints in the New Jerusalem, not the earth by any means. So they may travel back and forth, for all we know.

 

[th1b.taylor]

http://www.raptureforums.com/Rapture/sixteenproofs.cfm
The link demonstrates the 16 reasons to believe as I do in the Pretrib Rapture of the Saints.

 

[th1b.taylor]

again I ask, why would Jesus come for us to only bring us back to this present evil earth for another 1000 years to be persecuted. Gods timing is not our timing as in days, months and years.
2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I don't see the relevance of your scripture, nobody has put forth that such is not the case and some views of the Day of the LORD require that piece of info to stand.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I believe you have a basic misunderstanding of the Second Coming of Christ, the Millennium, and the eternal home of the saints. While Christ does bring back His saints with Him at His Second Coming, they do not remain on the earth. The saints will be involved with the judgement of "the world" and also of "angels". We have very little detail about this, but we know it will happen.

But during the Millennium, it is Christ Himself who rules the earth, and during that time there is perfect peace and righteousness on this earth. Also the saints reign with Him. So that "present evil world" will not be there, and Satan and his evil spirits will be bound in the bottomless pit. The important thing to note is that the eternal home of the saints in the New Jerusalem, not the earth by any means. So they may travel back and forth, for all we know.

Not changing my position but his reference on this matter is addressing the belief of some of us that believe we will rule a nation, a state, a county, a city or even a neighborhood under the hand of the LORD.

 

[JLB]

Several years ago i told a friend at least i thought he was my friend that the pre-trib rapture doctrine was a doctrine of devils.. we haven't spoken to one another since then. Have we forgotten that these devils that bounce around in our atmosphere can make up stories that we'll swallow?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

There is no sneak peek coming of Jesus before his second coming..

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

Yes, He will appear a second time... not a third.


JLB

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

Hi for_his_glory. Nice topic. I'm not sure I agree with all your conclusions but I definitely agree that Christians will be faced with the great tribulation. My understanding is that Jesus will return for his followers at the 7th trump (i.e. the last trumpet) and will attend the marriage supper of the lamb in the "new Jerusalem come down out of heaven" while the 7 vials of God's wrath are poured out on a disobedient world down below, culminating in the 7th vial (the battle of armageddon) in which Jesus (on a white horse) comes down to the battle field with the heavenly host (including those who were previously raptured) to defeat the armies of the earth which gathered together to fight against God.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

http://www.raptureforums.com/Rapture/sixteenproofs.cfm
The link demonstrates the 16 reasons to believe as I do in the Pretrib Rapture of the Saints.

Here's eight reasons why the day of the Lord and the rapture are the same.

http://z3news.com/w/proof-the-rapture-happens-on-the-day-of-the-lord/

 

[th1b.taylor]

Hi for_his_glory. Nice topic. I'm not sure I agree with all your conclusions but I definitely agree that Christians will be faced with the great tribulation. My understanding is that Jesus will return for his followers at the 7th trump (i.e. the last trumpet) and will attend the marriage supper of the lamb in the "new Jerusalem come down out of heaven" while the 7 vials of God's wrath are poured out on a disobedient world down below, culminating in the 7th vial (the battle of armageddon) in which Jesus (on a white horse) comes down to the battle field with the heavenly host (including those who were previously raptured) to defeat the armies of the earth which gathered together to fight against God.

You have been studying, good post.

 

[for_his_glory]

I believe you have a basic misunderstanding of the Second Coming of Christ, the Millennium, and the eternal home of the saints. While Christ does bring back His saints with Him at His Second Coming, they do not remain on the earth. The saints will be involved with the judgement of "the world" and also of "angels". We have very little detail about this, but we know it will happen.

But during the Millennium, it is Christ Himself who rules the earth, and during that time there is perfect peace and righteousness on this earth. Also the saints reign with Him. So that "present evil world" will not be there, and Satan and his evil spirits will be bound in the bottomless pit. The important thing to note is that the eternal home of the saints in the New Jerusalem, not the earth by any means. So they may travel back and forth, for all we know.

Could you please give scripture for all of this so I can read it.

In order to understand what scripture is saying we need to take out chapter and verse at various times for understanding as scripture was taken from written letters to the Church and it was man that added the books with chapters and verses. The scriptures are mainly focused on Israel as being Gods people, but also for all of Gods people Jew and Gentile. We are all part of Israel not as a nation, but Gods children and especially in Revelations we need to keep this in mind.

Rev 20 doesn't say there will be peace on earth during the 1000 years and that Christ will rule from the city of Jerusalem for a 1000 years. We are the army that comes with Jesus as He stands on the mount of Olives, Rev 19:7-14 when Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit as he goes out to deceive the nations in the four quarters of the earth which is called Gog and Magog to gather them together to surround the camp of the saints and the city of Jerusalem to battle the number of whom is as the sand of the sea meaning we the saints of God who are at that time gathered with Jesus in the air, 1Thessalonians 4:16, 17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, and return with Him as He plants His feet on the mount of Olives to fight the final battle. Satan then will be defeated and cast into the lake of fire at that time with the beast and the false prophet.

Rev 20 also speaks of the two resurrections as the first being we the saints of God that are resurrected unto eternal life with Him and the second resurrection being those who have died and will join those who are alive that have rejected Jesus and will be cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and the false prophet forever.

Do you think all of these events in Rev 20 will take 1000 years to transpire! I don't think so as 1000 years is only used here as a symbolic or generic number just as being the same as a 1000 generations, Deu 7:9; 1Chron 16:15; Psalms 105:8

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Could you please give scripture for all of this so I can read it.

In order to understand what scripture is saying we need to take out chapter and verse at various times for understanding as scripture was taken from written letters to the Church and it was man that added the books with chapters and verses. The scriptures are mainly focused on Israel as being Gods people, but also for all of Gods people Jew and Gentile. We are all part of Israel not as a nation, but Gods children and especially in Revelations we need to keep this in mind.

Rev 20 doesn't say there will be peace on earth during the 1000 years and that Christ will rule from the city of Jerusalem for a 1000 years. We are the army that comes with Jesus as He stands on the mount of Olives, Rev 19:7-14 when Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit as he goes out to deceive the nations in the four quarters of the earth which is called Gog and Magog to gather them together to surround the camp of the saints and the city of Jerusalem to battle the number of whom is as the sand of the sea meaning we the saints of God who are at that time gathered with Jesus in the air, 1Thessalonians 4:16, 17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, and return with Him as He plants His feet on the mount of Olives to fight the final battle. Satan then will be defeated and cast into the lake of fire at that time with the beast and the false prophet.

Rev 20 also speaks of the two resurrections as the first being we the saints of God that are resurrected unto eternal life with Him and the second resurrection being those who have died and will join those who are alive that have rejected Jesus and will be cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and the false prophet forever.

Do you think all of these events in Rev 20 will take 1000 years to transpire! I don't think so as 1000 years is only used here as a symbolic or generic number just as being the same as a 1000 generations, Deu 7:9; 1Chron 16:15; Psalms 105:8

Malachi never uses Scripture.
It all comes from inside his head.