Preaching Sovereignty of God in salvation.

[beloved57]

The Gospel of the kingdom, is basically preaching Gods High Sovereignty in salvation..In Fact Jesus himself preached Gods Sovereignty in salvation..

Jn 6:

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


Paul preached Gods Sovereignty in Salvation romans 9:


8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

#1. Divine grace should be preached as part of Gods eternal purpose, firmly and fully..2 tim 1:

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

acts 20:


24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
25And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

#2, The Gospel preached in its Sovereignty is not agreeable to carnal minds..1 cor 2:

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

#3. The Sovereignty of God in salvation, should not be neutralized by adding freewill or offering grace..

Jesus faithfully preached Gods sovereignty in salvation..

paul preached Gods sovereignty in salvation

beloved 57 preaches Gods sovereignty in salvation

For this is preaching the Gospel of the kingdom

 

[stranger]

Hi beloved57,

I'm a simple man. . . In Matthew 3:2 Jesus preached:
" Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

 

[beloved57]

Hi beloved57,

I'm a simple man. . . In Matthew 3:2 Jesus preached:
" Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Jesus preached many things..you should read more..

 

[Paidion]

Belief in the sovereignty of God does not require that God be the cause of every act of mankind.
It might be wise for you to consider other views of sovereignty --- those which differ from that of Calvinism.

If man's salvation if 100% the work of God and does not involve man's free choice in any way, then man is not responsible for failing to be saved, and there's no way for him to come to God. All has been determined by God ages ago, and so we all might as well sit back and hope that God chose us ages ago, that we are one of the "elect". Also, we might as well continue to fear that we likely are not one of the "elect". After all all fewer that 1% of mankind are disciples of Christ.

 

[samuel]

My belief is that the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to man, and it is mans responsibility to respond; or not to that truth. This leaves way for free choice, and election. Without making election 100% sure, and leaving no responsibility to man. Otherwise as was said man would not bear the responsibility of sin, and neither could or would need to be saved.

 

[Drew]

Paul preached Gods Sovereignty in Salvation romans 9:


8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 9 has absolutely nothing at all to say on the matter of individual salvation. As has, if I may say so, demonstrated in abundant and perhaps annoying detail in a range of other recent theads, the "vessels fitted for destruction" are non-believing Jews, not those "pre-destined" to be forever lost. And while Paul does indeed identify an "elect" - the vessels of glory - he is not making any commitment to the effect that specific persons have been pre-destined to membership in this group. All Paul is saying that covenant membership is open to Gentiles, and not just Jews. This is what he means when he writes:

What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles

The only reasons the standard Calvinist position on this text has any purchase at all are these:

1. As an isolated snippet of text, this material could indeed be seen as endorsing the election to salvation of specific people. But it need not be read that way. And now see (2);

2. This bit of Romans 9 is always put forward by the Calvinist without relation to the immediate context of Romans 9 and the broader context of the whole letter. Invariably, other texts from other letters are invoked to make the case. And those texts have their own problems. But watch - you will never see the Calvinist analyse the Romans 9 context, and the broader context of the letter as a whole to make their case. And this because (a) such an analysis forces one to see the "vessels of destruction" as unbelieving Jews (thus undermining "half" of the Calvinist take on this material); and (b) such an analysis will reveal that Paul is focused on the fact that the Gentiles are now part of Abraham's family - this argues strongly for the notion that in verses 23 and 24, Paul's real intent is simply to say that the Gentiles are now seen as being under grace, not that specific Jews and Gentiles have been pre-destined to salvation

3. The naive and demonstrably incorrect notion that if a "group" is indeed pre-destined to some status, specific members of that group must also, by logical necessity, be thus pre-destined. I admnit this idea has some appeal. But it is simply not correct, as has been clearly shown.

4. An unwillingness to accept that Paul's whole Romans 9 argument is at the level of nations and races, not individuals. At this point, the determined Calvinist will appeal to item 3.

 

[dadof10]

Jesus preached many things..you should read more..

I think the point Stranger was making is that you can't reconcile the Calvinist view of the "Sovereignty of God" with this verse. I thought we were here to discuss, not simply state our views with verses that seem to back them up, then ignore the rest of Scripture that seems to say the opposite. This is a Forum for discussion.

How do you reconcile the above verse with the Calvivinist view of sovereignty?

 

[3rddayuprising]

Here's where Paul sets the precedent for the context of Romans 9:

Verses 7,8 "Neither, because they are the seed of abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall Thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these ARE NOT the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

So, obviously here, Paul is talking about God's children...those who shall be considered God's children...through SALVATION and His calling of them. Which Paul elaborates throughout this chapter, breaking it down further into the fact that individuals are not made children of God by their "willing", or their "running" but only those to whom God showeth mercy.

According to verse 8 "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God", it is again clear that this condition of who are elected to be children of God has nothing to do with the "nations" of Jews or Gentiles. This blessing of Salvation is NOT to anyone according to the "flesh" or their natural heritage. THIS is what Paul is saying, and this is the context of the whole chapter.

We are called and elected IN CHRIST, Who was the promised SEED; which came apart from ANY NATURAL seed. He was the Word made flesh. The covenants were made through Abraham, but our Salvation is according our predestiation and election in Christ, Who was a Spiritual Seed.

So, just remember THIS...in all your resistance to this Truth, that the "children of God...those elected and called...those INDIVIDUALS shown mercy to by God...are NOT according to the flesh, NOT according to whether they are Jew or Gentile. Verse 8 says so.

So, your stand concerning "races" and "nations" holds no water whatsoever.

 

[beloved57]

Jesus preached many things..you should read more..

I think the point Stranger was making is that you can't reconcile the Calvinist view of the "Sovereignty of God" with this verse. I thought we were here to discuss, not simply state our views with verses that seem to back them up, then ignore the rest of Scripture that seems to say the opposite. This is a Forum for discussion.

How do you reconcile the above verse with the Calvivinist view of sovereignty?

Stranger is dead wrong..The gospel is much more than the verse he showed..in fact thats not the gospel period..

This is a Forum for discussion.

I see your hypocrisy, for stranger posted a half a sentence to my post of many words and you talk about a discussion..yeah right..you both just reject the truth of Gods Sovereignty..

 

[beloved57]

Romans 9 has absolutely nothing at all to say on the matter of individual salvation

sure it does..the whole book is about salvation period..rom 1:

15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[beloved57]

My belief is that the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to man,

Thats all it is , is your belief..God only reveals Himself to His chosen ones..the rest will be damned..

 

[dadof10]

Stranger is dead wrong..The gospel is much more than the verse he showed..in fact thats not the gospel period..

PROVE IT. Don't just say it.

[quote:3bedkn4e]This is a Forum for discussion.

I see your hypocrisy, for stranger posted a half a sentence to my post of many words and you talk about a discussion..yeah right..you both just reject the truth of Gods Sovereignty..[/quote:3bedkn4e]

Sheesh, relax. All I'm asking for is for you to acknowledge there are verses that SEEM to directly contradict your doctrine and deal with the difficulties. Why won't you simply engage? Everyone else here is dealing with your contentions, why won't you deal with theirs? Maybe because you CAN'T? Maybe because double predestination is a non-Biblical, man-made doctrine?

 

[Drew]

Here's where Paul sets the precedent for the context of Romans 9:

Verses 7,8 "Neither, because they are the seed of abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall Thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these ARE NOT the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

So, obviously here, Paul is talking about God's children...those who shall be considered God's children...through SALVATION and His calling of them. Which Paul elaborates throughout this chapter, breaking it down further into the fact that individuals are not made children of God by their "willing", or their "running" but only those to whom God showeth mercy.

Paul indeed identifies God's "true Israel" as a group. And he does say that "true" Israel was pre-destined for glory. But, as has been extensively demonstrated elsewhere, this does not mean that specific persons are elected to glory. Identifying that a group has been pre-destined does not mean that specific members are "named" and also pre-destined.

Paul is saying that from the beginning of time, God "pre-destined" that his true family would be a world-wide one, constituted by both Jews and Gentiles. But this does not mean that he pre-destined who the specific members of that family are. You need to understand the context in which this letter was written. In the world of Paul's day, the Jews believed that, as a nation, they were God's true family. In effect, they believed that they were "pre-destined by birth" to such a status.

Paul is saying no to this. He is saying that God's really pre-destined a family made up of both Jew and Gentile. He is not claiming that specific Jews and Gentiles have been pre-destined to be in that family

Paul is talking at the level of nations and races here, not individuals, in respect to these vessels.

Let's say that God pre-destined that the 2017 New YorK Yankees will win the world series. As has been repeatedly shown, and without refutation, this pre-destination can come true with many different combinations of players making up the 2017 version of the New York Yankees.

The Calvinist is leveraging the naive and incorrect view that statements about a group being pre-destined necessitate that individuals are pre-destined.

You watch - no one will argue that if a group is pre-destined, individuals are also pre-destined. They will simply claim it.

 

[Drew]

According to verse 8 "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God", it is again clear that this condition of who are elected to be children of God has nothing to do with the "nations" of Jews or Gentiles. This blessing of Salvation is NOT to anyone according to the "flesh" or their natural heritage. THIS is what Paul is saying, and this is the context of the whole chapter.

I entirely agree and have been saying this all along. The true family of God is not any one race or nation but is rather made up of both Jews and Gentiles. But you read something into what Paul writes when you claim that the members of the true family of God are "elected" into that family.

 

[Drew]

So, your stand concerning "races" and "nations" holds no water whatsoever.

I admit that what I wrote may have been a bit confusing. When I say that Paul is talking at the levels of nations and races, I really should have said that he is talking at the level of groups.

The vessels fitted for destruction are a group which, in this case, is also effectively a nation: unbelieving Jews. I note that you have not countered my arguments where it is clear from Romans 11 that the "vessels fitted for destruction" must be unbelieving Jews. That case needs to be addressed by you if your predestination position is to stand.

The vessels fitted for glory are a group whose membership is drawn from the "Jewish" nation and the "Gentile" nations.

Either way, Paul is not talking about individuals getting pre-destined.

 

[mondar]

Belief in the sovereignty of God does not require that God be the cause of every act of mankind.

paidon and beloved 57... Just jumping in for some quick comments. I have no promises currently to return promptly.

Paidon, above your comments are little more then the typical spin that does not address the issues. Calvinists do not claim that God is the direct cause of every evil act. That is little more then a straw man argument. God decreed that evil would happen, but did not cause it to happen. I expect you will continue to confuse these two things (decree and causation) and deny any difference, but that is typical.

An illustration of the difference----> As in the case of Joseph, God's did not sin (causation), but man sinned (decree) and God caused good to come of mans sin. So the brothers of Joseph meant evil toward Joseph, but God intended it for good.
Gen 50:20 And as for you, ye meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
The scriptures reflect the difference between Gods decree that man will sin, and mens evil behavior.

It might be wise for you to consider other views of sovereignty --- those which differ from that of Calvinism.

LOL, let me restate your words in my own words. This appeal is for people to believe in the sovereignty of God in any area, but to forget the sovereignty of God in salvation. God is sovereign only in creation, but not in salvation? So God was sovereign throughout all creation and history but when it came to salvation he fell apart and just could not stay sovereign? Of, maybe he did not want to remain sovereign, he wanted to leave all the sovereignty behind and choose to make man sovereign by making him have a will that is not bound by his sin nature?

If man's salvation if 100% the work of God and does not involve man's free choice in any way, then man is not responsible for failing to be saved, and there's no way for him to come to God. All has been determined by God ages ago, and so we all might as well sit back and hope that God chose us ages ago, that we are one of the "elect". Also, we might as well continue to fear that we likely are not one of the "elect". After all all fewer that 1% of mankind are disciples of Christ.

Here it is... "If man's salvation if 100% the work of God. Salvation is not 100% the work of God? If faith is the work of man, then salvation is not by grace alone.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt.
Mans works bring only debt. Even if it is only 0.00001%.

Also, notice the straw man once again. "All has been determined by God ages ago, and so we all might as well sit back and hope that God chose us ages ago, that we are one of the "elect".
The natural man does not sit around waiting for God to choose him. The natural man is busy suppressing the knowledge of God.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;

now the reason paidon says this is his tradition. He views calvinism only through his tradition and does not understand biblical Calvinism. His tradition asserts that in the Calvinist view of man he is sitting under the proverbial tree waiting for election. Actually it is far far far more worse then that. Calvinists see the natural man as busily defying God as an angry rebel sinner.
Eph 2:3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest: -
We do not think man, in his natural state is waiting for God to do something, but rather that we have joined the rebellion! The natural man (which we all were) is not waiting under the tree, we are chopping it down so that if we see God coming we can run the other way and continue our rebellion.

PS, I forget what thread this was in... but I was speaking to someone who denied that the term nature (Eph 2:3) was referring to the natural human nature. That our nature is not defective... I forget who that was. Can anyone help me?

 

[3rddayuprising]

So, your stand concerning "races" and "nations" holds no water whatsoever.

I admit that what I wrote may have been a bit confusing. When I say that Paul is talking at the levels of nations and races, I really should have said that he is talking at the level of groups.

The vessels fitted for destruction are a group which, in this case, is also effectively a nation: unbelieving Jews. I note that you have not countered my arguments where it is clear from Romans 11 that the "vessels fitted for destruction" must be unbelieving Jews. That case needs to be addressed by you if your predestination position is to stand.

The vessels fitted for glory are a group whose membership is drawn from the "Jewish" nation and the "Gentile" nations.

Either way, Paul is not talking about individuals getting pre-destined.

If you can't see that Paul is talking about the election and predestination of individuals in Romans 9, then of course, anything you write will be confusing. Romans 9:11"...that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth."

And as it was shown clearly in my previous reply, the context is that of "who are the children of God". They are "the promised seed"...not according to the flesh, AND those who are not SAVED "by works", but of Him "that calleth".

There's nothing to be confused about. We're not "reading into" this portion of Scripture...you are "reading OUT" of It. You might as well tear out that whole Chapter from your Bible, because you have overlooked and ignored the whole context and point of what Paul is saying.

 

[beloved57]

If you can't see that Paul is talking about the election and predestination of individuals in Romans 9,

Thats asking a lot of a blind man, to see spiritual truth..read his post, they are built upon human reasoning a philosophy..

 

[Drew]

Romans 9 has absolutely nothing at all to say on the matter of individual salvation

sure it does..the whole book is about salvation period..rom 1:

15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Your problem is that you reject truth for your humanism..

The real problem is that you revise Paul to fit your purposes. I, on the other hand, let Paul be Paul. And, of coure, I (unlike you) will be able to provide concrete scriptural evidence to prove my point.

The book of Romans, while it addresses matters of salvation of individuals, deals with much much more. For example, Paul addresses the following topics which are fundamentally not salvation related:

1. The letter is largely a treatment of how the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus is fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. This is not primarily a treatment of "how you get saved", but rather a treatment of how Jesus' story integrates specifically into the Old Testament narrative. Example text (note how the "entrusting with the oracles of God is a rather obvious allusion as to how the Jews are to be the means by which the world is to be blessed).

Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

2. The letter deals with God's treatment of the nation of Israel. This, again, is primarily not a treatment of "how you get saved". Example text:

I speak the truth in Christâ€â€I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel

3. The letter addresses the role of the Torah. Again, this is not a treatment of "how you get saved". Example text:

For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful

 

[Drew]

If you can't see that Paul is talking about the election and predestination of individuals in Romans 9, then of course, anything you write will be confusing. Romans 9:11"...that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth."

Proof again that you simply replace what Paul actually says with something to your own liking:

3rdday claims that 9:11 is about election of individuals unto salvation.

Well, Paul says something else - he says that the "election" or "choice" in question was for the nation of Edom (the descendents of Esau) to be in a subservient position to the nation of Israel (the descendents of Jacob).

Paul says this both directly, and by referring to an Old Testament passage. Here is the direct statement of what the election is about:

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badâ€â€in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who callsâ€â€she was told, "The older will serve the younger.

Funny, no mention of salvation, only a mention of election to "one serving the other".

Why are you revising what Paul actually says?

Here is the reference that Paul is quoting:

The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger."

Funny, no mention of eternal salvation here. And, of course, this reference matches perfectly well with what Paul says in 9:12

So Paul twice declares that the "choice" or "election" is about something in the present world.

I will go with what Paul says.