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Predestination and Calvinism

wondering

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I know what it means. If you want to know then you look it up. Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10. That doesn't apply to all mankind without exception, sorry!
Who said it did??

W
 

Sinthesis

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The people under God's wrath are those who believeth not the Son. However, Hebrews 4 and Romans 11 show us that this need not be eternal, and that it is allowed for the benefit of others.
 
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I understand that opening this thread is like opening the proverbial can of worms. I can hardly believe I am doing it. Especially because in my own mind the problem between freewill and predestination. They both make perfectly good sense to me. God knows and control what I will choose, but I can still choose. It's that simple to me. But apparently not for everyone else. Some really seem to struggle over this issue. In fact it has become a major arguments over and over in Christianity, and because it seems so easy for me my real problem comes from trying to understand why others have a problem with it. I guess that is why I posted on it.

So the question I would like to propose is:

Why do you think Calvinism and predestination verse freewill and a persons ability to choose has caused such problems?
I understand that opening this thread is like opening the proverbial can of worms. I can hardly believe I am doing it. Especially because in my own mind the problem between freewill and predestination. They both make perfectly good sense to me. God knows and control what I will choose, but I can still choose. It's that simple to me. But apparently not for everyone else. Some really seem to struggle over this issue. In fact it has become a major arguments over and over in Christianity, and because it seems so easy for me my real problem comes from trying to understand why others have a problem with it. I guess that is why I posted on it.

So the question I would like to propose is:

Why do you think Calvinism and predestination verse freewill and a persons ability to choose has caused such problems?
When you raise your child, you predestine a path that you would your child to achieve. Foreknowing your child (in planning a family and knowing of the child in the womb before birth) To conform to the image (after birth) of the fathers vision and path directed for and before you. That you might be the first born of the family to show the exceeding greatness and parental love of your father to the siblings that are born after you (an example and benefit) which was His purpose, in planning the direction of a family beforehand. But this is only possible for the good of the individual child who works together, and to them that love their father (choice or choose) (Deut. 30:19) God knew us beforehand. Notice that God's purpose comes before foreknowledge (Rom. 8:28) This is just an example of the human mind and soul that might give us some explanation of God's work on behalf of man.
 
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The next verse says this:

17This is My command to you: Love one another.

Was verse 17 for His disciples rather than mankind in general?
In this particular discourse, Christ is speaking of all believers as brethern. You don't see that now, as a world wide brotherhood in Christ. For very few die to self to form an evangelistic sacrificing brotherhood. And the results of that is obvious in the attack on Christian values.
 

Jim Parker

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Do you think the sin nature could be elimintated? It still exists even in believers.
Rom 6:16-18 (RSV) Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

It cannot be eliminated but it can be overcome. But that's going to take a lot of work for a long time.
Nature is infected with the sin nature. How do you take care of that?
Hurricanes kill people, earthquakes kill people.
True. After the 1906 San Francisco earthquake, the people rebuilt the city on the same fault line.
After Katrina, people moved right back to New Orleans into neighborhoods that ate below sea level and protected by levees taht haven't been maintained for decades.
People don't just choose evil; they also have a habit of choosing stupid.:shrug
I don't believe we have evil in the world simply because not everyone is Christian.
I believe you are 100% correct. But, if the world were completely converted (I'm dreaming of course) the amount of evil done by people would be way down.
It's a vital part of the make up of this life, and we don't know why.
The Genesis account of the fall tells us that the path of evil is through the egotism of mankind. Man want's to be God. It hasn't worked well.

iakov the fool
 
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beloved57

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The people under God's wrath are those who believeth not the Son. However, Hebrews 4 and Romans 11 show us that this need not be eternal, and that it is allowed for the benefit of others.
Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10! So they are not under Gods Wrath.
 

Deborah13

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When you raise your child, you predestine a path that you would your child to achieve. Foreknowing your child (in planning a family and knowing of the child in the womb before birth) To conform to the image (after birth) of the fathers vision and path directed for and before you. That you might be the first born of the family to show the exceeding greatness and parental love of your father to the siblings that are born after you (an example and benefit) which was His purpose, in planning the direction of a family beforehand. But this is only possible for the good of the individual child who works together, and to them that love their father (choice or choose) (Deut. 30:19) God knew us beforehand. Notice that God's purpose comes before foreknowledge (Rom. 8:28) This is just an example of the human mind and soul that might give us some explanation of God's work on behalf of man.
If I am understanding you correctly, I would agree with this. God had a plan from before the creation to have a chosen people, a family.

KJV
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
YLT
Rom 11:2 God did not cast away His people whom He knew before; have ye not known--in Elijah--what the Writing saith? how he doth plead with God concerning Israel, saying,

2Ti 1:9 who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages,
 

Cygnus

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In this particular discourse, Christ is speaking of all believers as brethern. You don't see that now, as a world wide brotherhood in Christ. For very few die to self to form an evangelistic sacrificing brotherhood. And the results of that is obvious in the attack on Christian values.

That would agree with Christ call all the brethren...and the callings wasn't just for the apostles.
 

childeye

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Childeye,
I don't want to get started on this again - we've been through this a couple of times.
I respect your feelings even as I know you respect mine. That is, I am compelled to be thankful for correction and edification from those who are made willing and able to provide it.
But I'll never understand how you can believe that just because I'm serving God, I have no free will.
"the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God."
As I recall, after lengthy discourse over the semantics inherent in the term free will, we both agreed that in the moral/'immoral context there can only be one true freedom, and that is serving God. God is Love, the impetus of goodwill in every man.

A more complex explanation as pertains to fate and God: As I understand it, scripture indicates that we all have inherited sin/corruption through Adam, which our will cannot change of it's own volition. For this reason Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and was not born of the seed of Adam, so that he was born without sin, and that he may become a worthy propitiation for our sins, as pertains to deliverance from death according to the law.

Not only this, but that he may be the first born of many brethren amongst mankind through faith in Him, Who is become God's grace to those who believe. This is therefore an intervention in the events in time through the sovereign will of God, where otherwise mankind would have been fated to death without any hope of Life. And this is in keeping with God, who had stated from the beginning, that if mankind ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they would surely die as the result.

So contrary to the dictionary definition of free-will, here in scripture is the will of man, either subject through fate to die through the knowledge of good and evil and condemnation under the law, or subject to God through His self-sacrificing intervention unto life. These are the absolutes of life and death and everything on the pathway in between is relative.


So do you think God controls every single choice I make?
I'll just say that I don't discount that God has ordered every event in time down to every single molecule. For the Christ has said that every hair on your head is numbered and not one single sparrow can fall from the sky apart from the will of God. I would not presume to put any limits on His power. Matthew 10:29, 30.
Do you believe because God knows what is going to happen, that causes it to happen?
I believe that the cause of what happens is known to God and it is indistinguishable from His purpose. Hence He is both author and finisher of our faith.

HOW is my choice controlled by God?
As far as my limited understanding goes, from the eternal point of view, the future as we know it, is as unchangeable as the past. God has constructed the present temporal heavens and earth with an end goal of populating an eternal heavens and earth, which is the scroll with seven seals written on both sides. So I believe that this temporal existence is meant to filter out the elements that would otherwise corrupt an eternal heavens and earth, and/or put in place an eternal order from first to last, where the greatest is the one who serves the rest.

To explain these elements is to understand deeper how we are controlled. Mankind in his innocence, is like the irresistible bait for a vanity that begins at the top order of creation residing in heaven. What we see as freely made choices between good and evil, is God sifting and refining through a temporal flesh existence that was made subject to vanity through belief in a lie. And we are molded and sculpted by the events which we experience because of it. The unwanted elements are therefore pre-disposed to choose a path that will turn what began in vanity into a sincere and ever renewing appreciation for God with all humility, which then become treasured elements. Where ever the lie exists, the Truth of God's glory is manifested through it. Satan is like the quicksilver that refines the gold, and vanity is the sieve that sifts the nations.
He can tell me not to do something by His word, for instance. Does this mean I'll obey it?
Since God is sifting, that would depend on what is hidden from us in the subconscious, but is not hidden to God. I would argue that with Love as the cause and purpose of one's will, God would not have to tell us not to do something wrong. To me His Word is first Spirit. But in this temporal existence subject to vanity, the letter was introduced first so as to establish for the record, the need for the Spirit.
Because I'm subordinate to God, does this mean I'm not free?
Since free is a subjective term, it would be necessary to qualify what you mean. If you mean not free from slavery to sin, then no , since being subordinate to God is to be free from sin. If you mean not free from Love, then yes, since God is Love. I would say then, that you are free to do whatever you want, but you are not free to want whatever you want to want which determines what you will do.

I'd say that those serving satan are not free. Why? Because they truly are subjugated to an evil that does not allow them freedom. If you serve satan, your sin nature is in full control of everything you do. "Good" cannot exist in a lost person. However, "bad" can exist in a saved person precisely because of the sin nature, but it is held in check and does not have dominion over the God-serving person. The sin nature has dominion over the lost, satan-serving person.
Satan rules by lies, while God rules by Truth. So then according to what you say above, you don't actually believe in the free will definition posted above from Merriam Webster, since it proposes that a will is free when not controlled by God, and God is Love. Without Love, one cannot love one another. Hence when you say God gave us a free will, anyone who understands the definition of the term free will, believes that you are preaching that we were not created subordinate to God. But that He made us enabled to sin whenever we choose to. The choice to sin is then portrayed as an ability given by God, rather than a disability attributable to Satan and vanity.
 
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beloved57

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Christ died for all.
The all He died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10 which does not include all mankind without exception since some are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation Jn 3:18,36. So it's on you to clarify All.
 
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OzSpen

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You did not refute nothing, those Christ died for received the reconciliation while they were enemies, that is why they are reconciled to God while being enemies. It was applied to them while they were enemies, that is how they received it. You can't ignore what Rom 5:10 states!

beloved57,

There is not a word in Rom 5:10-11 (ESV) that says anything about 'those Christ died for received the reconciliation'. 'It was applied to them while they were enemies' is your Calvinistic interpretation. That is not what these verses state:
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

These two verses do not tell about the HOW of receiving reconciliation, but they tell the WHAT, 'We have now received reconcilition'.

I am blessed to know that I have received reconciliation and I am not a Calvinist.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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Look the word reconciled up in Rom 5:10 if you want to know what it means. That's your responsibility. The fact remains that those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10, that doesn't apply to all mankind without exception since some people are under Gods Wrath as enemies Jn 3:36!

That fact remains that those who 'received reconciliation' (Rom 5:11 ESV) are reconciled.
 

smaller

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Apparently the devil was already inventing theology in the garden of Eden.
Brilliant deduction.

Predestination has to start with God.

Did God have plans before creation? Did He predestine His creation? Did He know in advance what He was doing and how He was going to do it? Did He know the outcomes in advance? Does God get His ways, His plans done exactly as He purposed and proposed?

Personally I have to answer yes to all of these questions.

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

If we subscribe to God, it is reasonable to subscribe to the fact that only God knows His Perfect Pleasures and how to obtain that which pleases Him.

Call it the "pleasure principle."
 

brother Paul

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We are to "reckon" the sin nature dead in us...and "reckon" ourselves dead to sin...but it will not be actually eradicated until we are glorified (at the parousia). Sinning was our lifestyle (we did not even consider most of it wrong rather fun or cunning strategy)....after obtaining our new nature in Christ (we now have two at war) sin becomes the exception (I would hope for you also) and we know it, sense it, feel contrition, and confess it seeking His mercy and grace (totally unknown before) which we can be assured we have now knowing Him who is faithful who cannot lie...

We sin because we are sinners, we are not sinners because we sin!
 

childeye

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Brilliant deduction.

Predestination has to start with God.

Did God have plans before creation? Did He predestine His creation? Did He know in advance what He was doing and how He was going to do it? Did He know the outcomes in advance? Does God get His ways, His plans done exactly as He purposed and proposed?

Personally I have to answer yes to all of these questions.

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

If we subscribe to God, it is reasonable to subscribe to the fact that only God knows His Perfect Pleasures and how to obtain that which pleases Him.

Call it the "pleasure principle."
I'm with you on this. I marvel at the faith that finds nothing wrong with being counted as sheep for the slaughter. I equally marvel at the hypocrisy that finds something wrong with it, while the mouth is full of mutton. Bon appetite.
 

childeye

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We are to "reckon" the sin nature dead in us...and "reckon" ourselves dead to sin...but it will not be actually eradicated until we are glorified (at the parousia). Sinning was our lifestyle (we did not even consider most of it wrong rather fun or cunning strategy)....after obtaining our new nature in Christ (we now have two at war) sin becomes the exception (I would hope for you also) and we know it, sense it, feel contrition, and confess it seeking His mercy and grace (totally unknown before) which we can be assured we have now knowing Him who is faithful who cannot lie...

We sin because we are sinners, we are not sinners because we sin!
Your honesty in this post is refreshing and disarming. Now how do I convince my nose that everyone else's stink is not greater than my own?
 
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beloved57

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beloved57,

There is not a word in Rom 5:10-11 (ESV) that says anything about 'those Christ died for received the reconciliation'. 'It was applied to them while they were enemies' is your Calvinistic interpretation. That is not what these verses state:


These two verses do not tell about the HOW of receiving reconciliation, but they tell the WHAT, 'We have now received reconcilition'.

I am blessed to know that I have received reconciliation and I am not a Calvinist.

Oz
It specifically says in Rom 5:10 that those Christ died for were reconciled to God while they were enemies by His Death. That doesn't apply to all mankind without exception since some people are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation as enemies Jn 3:18,36. So Christ death was applied to some and not others as enemies and unbelievers.edited
 
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beloved57

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That fact remains that those who 'received reconciliation' (Rom 5:11 ESV) are reconciled.
They were reconciled while they were enemies Rom 5:10! Others are not Jn 3:18,36. That is undeniable.
 
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