Predestination and Christ

[stranger]

Hi all,

The Lord be with you all. Apologies to all for having to clarify the OP. If I'm making reference to predestination - I should at least have scripture texts that uses the word. Hopefully this clarifies the context a little.


It occurred to me that some arguments about Predestination are based on the following text. My assumption is that the words 'before the foundation of the world' mean 'before creation'. In any event the creation of man would have to come after the creation of the world which was to sustain and nourish him.
all texts NASB


Ephesians 1:4-6

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.


Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Before creation, before time, God existed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So how are we to approach the above 3 scriptures which clearly speak of Christ 'before Creation'? In other words we have the triune God and the added complication that reference is made to Christ (not only before his incarnation), but before creation itself.

Any comments would be appreciated.

 

[Danus]

Hi stranger,

I'm not seeing a reconciliation problem with this one. If Christ is God himself, there is not problem with his transcending time and space. You mentioned the "Triune God" God the father, God the son, and God the holly spirit, existed before the foundation of the world. before we as people had any clue who we are, God is. God exist.

 

[Butch5]

Hi all,

It occurred to me that some arguments about Predestination are based on the following texts. My assumption is that the words 'before the foundation of the world' mean 'before creation'. In any event the creation of man would have to come after the creation of the world which was to sustain and nourish him.
all texts NASB

1.John 17:24
Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

2.Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

3.1 Peter 1:20
For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
* all texts refer to Christ

Before creation, before time, God existed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So how are we to approach the above 3 scriptures which clearly speak of Christ 'before Creation'? In other words we have the triune God and the added complication that reference is made to Christ (not only before his incarnation), but before creation itself.

Any comments would be appreciated.

I'm not sure what you're getting at either.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Stranger, I don't see a problem either, could you elaborate?

 

[chessman]

So how are we to approach the above 3 scriptures which clearly speak of Christ 'before Creation'? In other words we have the triune God and the added complication that reference is made to Christ (not only before his incarnation), but before creation itself.
Any comments would be appreciated.

.

My comment would be that any, and I mean any, "church" that alters these passage are non-Christian "cults". Run from them as their lie about these passages teaching anything other than predestination by the Triune God in that lie is only going to be followed by the next lie, and the next, etc. you might even wind up with, a man can be God or Jesus is Satan's brother. But the beauty of Truth is they mesh perfectly with all other Bible passages, even the OT passages.

 

[childeye]

The only thing I know for sure about predestination is there could be no prophecy without it. That, and time is relative.

 

[chessman]

The only thing I know for sure about predestination is there could be no prophecy without it. That, and time is relative.

Good point if you mean true prophecy (which I'm sure you did). So if a church speaks for god and their prophecies or prophets are shown to be false, then they evidently were not speaking for God.

 

[childeye]

Good point if you mean true prophecy (which I'm sure you did). So if a church speaks for god and their prophecies or prophets are shown to be false, then they evidently were not speaking for God.

Scripture says the same thing you just said. My point is we are in time and much of what is said about predestination in scripture is spoken from a view that would be outside of time, God's view. To a people who are in a temporal state this causes much confusion due to the semantics involved.

 

[chessman]

Scripture says the same thing you just said. My point is we are in time and much of what is said about predestination in scripture is spoken from a view that would be outside of time, God's view. To a people who are in a temporal state this causes much confusion due to the semantics involved.

Is there an example Scripture to your point? Not about people being temporal but the predestination passage's view being outside of time?

 

[childeye]

Indeed much ofl Old Testament scripture is full of views from outside of time wherein God declares the future through His prophets. Peopls are still guessing on what some of it means. But in the New testament, the bible also speaks of predestination after this fashion:
Ephesians 1:9-11

New International Version (NIV)

9 he[a] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen,[b] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

But, what comes to mind most for me is:
Mark 14:30

New International Version (NIV)

30 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “today—yes, tonight—before the rooster crows twice[a] you yourself will disown me three times.”
Mark 14:67-72

New International Version (NIV)

67 When she saw Peter warming himself, she looked closely at him.
“You also were with that Nazarene, Jesus,” she said.
68 But he denied it. “I don’t know or understand what you’re talking about,” he said, and went out into the entryway.[a]
69 When the servant girl saw him there, she said again to those standing around, “This fellow is one of them.” 70 Again he denied it.
After a little while, those standing near said to Peter, “Surely you are one of them, for you are a Galilean.”
71 He began to call down curses, and he swore to them, “I don’t know this man you’re talking about.”
72 Immediately the rooster crowed the second time.[b] Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken to him: “Before the rooster crows twice[c] you will disown me three times.” And he broke down and wept.

It is remarkable to me how all of the events and interconnection of people's lives must all come together for this prophecy of Christ to come true. No wonder scripture says that every hair on your head is numbered and that a sparrow cannot fall from the sky apart from the will of God..

 

[HisSheep]

Stranger,

You really need to explain this a bit further. I don’t think anybody quite knows what you’re asking. It sounds like you’re confusing the statements about the Father knowing/loving Christ before the foundation of the World with the Father knowing the elect before the foundation of the world.

-HisSheep

 

[HisSheep]

Stranger,

As an aside, I don't think Ephesians 1:4 refers to Christ in the way that I think you are thinking. Let me annotate the pronouns as I see them:

According as he (the Father) hath chosen us (the elect) in him (Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we (the elect) should be holy and without blame before him (the Father) in love (Ephesians 1:4)

Thoughts?

-HisSheep

 

[Butch5]

Stranger,

As an aside, I don't think Ephesians 1:4 refers to Christ in the way that I think you are thinking. Let me annotate the pronouns as I see them:

According as he (the Father) hath chosen us (the elect) in him (Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we (the elect) should be holy and without blame before him (the Father) in love (Ephesians 1:4)

Thoughts?

-HisSheep

Hi HisSheep,

I would suggest that the passages is referring the Jewish people prior to Paul's day.

 

[stranger]

Danus, Deborah, Butch and HisSheep,

The Lord be with you all. Apologies for the not so clear OP.

What I'm interested in is the expression 'before the foundation of the world' used in context's like the 3 verses in the OP. Would you agree that such verses are messianic and Prophetic where the 'time' frame is before creation?

I agree that there is no problem - since Christ is God and the full revelation thereof. However, it requires a transcendent leap to think about Christ before the world was created. Contemplating heaven or the new creation also requires this sort of transcendence.

Before creation, in terms other than prophetic, can we speak of the human nature of Christ?

So the above sets up a scenario where predestination is set - or begins if you like. We can probably agree that it ends in the new heavens and the new earth.

 

[Butch5]

Danus, Deborah, Butch and HisSheep,

The Lord be with you all. Apologies for the not so clear OP.

What I'm interested in is the expression 'before the foundation of the world' used in context's like the 3 verses in the OP. Would you agree that such verses are messianic and Prophetic where the 'time' frame is before creation?

I agree that there is no problem - since Christ is God and the full revelation thereof. However, it requires a transcendent leap to think about Christ before the world was created. Contemplating heaven or the new creation also requires this sort of transcendence.

Before creation, in terms other than prophetic, can we speak of the human nature of Christ?

So the above sets up a scenario where predestination is set - or begins if you like. We can probably agree that it ends in the new heavens and the new earth.

Hi Stranger,

I believe those passages speak of a time before creation. Regarding predestination, it simply means to predetermine.

 

[stranger]

HisSheep,

The Lord be with you. I focused on the expression 'before the foundation of the world' and used this as a keyword in biblegateway and then picked 3 texts from a larger base. I may have included 'predestined' in the word search to select more concise texts, so point taken.

 

[HisSheep]

Hi HisSheep,

I would suggest that the passages is referring the Jewish people prior to Paul's day.

When I read the first verse in the book, I take it to be a salutation. Here, Paul addresses and identifies the recipients (the intended audience) of the letter. All the plural pronouns following refer to them (and include himself), and they are New Testament believers. Who else would Paul be referring to?

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints (New Testament believers) which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful (New Testament believers) in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you (New Testament believers), and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us (New Testament believers) with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us (New Testament believers) in him before the foundation of the world, that we (New Testament believers) should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us (New Testament believers) unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us (New Testament believers) accepted in the beloved. (Ephesians 1:1-6)

Even Free-willers will have to admit that these pronouns refer to Christians.

-HisSheep

 

[HisSheep]

Hi Stranger,

I believe those passages speak of a time before creation. Regarding predestination, it simply means to predetermine.

Yes. Yes.

And more.. To predestine, or predestinate... is to determine destiny beforehand.

-HisSheep

 

[Butch5]

When I read the first verse in the book, I take it to be a salutation. Here, Paul addresses and identifies the recipients (the intended audience) of the letter. All the plural pronouns following refer to them (and include himself), and they are New Testament believers. Who else would Paul be referring to?

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints (New Testament believers) which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful (New Testament believers) in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you (New Testament believers), and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us (New Testament believers) with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us (New Testament believers) in him before the foundation of the world, that we (New Testament believers) should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us (New Testament believers) unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us (New Testament believers) accepted in the beloved. (Ephesians 1:1-6)

Even Free-willers will have to admit that these pronouns refer to Christians.

-HisSheep

Hi HisSheep,

The letter is addressed to the church, however, in verses 3-12 Paul is talking "about", not to the Jews. You looked at the pronouns, let's look at them again. He uses first person personal plural pronouns (us, we, our) and second person plural pronouns (you, your). We can see that he is drawing a distinction between two groups, us and you. It seems obvious that the "you" group is His readers. The question is who is the "us" group? In the context of the passage we find references that apply to the Jews but not the Gentiles. For instance, in verse 11 Paul says, 'we have obtained (past tense) and inheritance. The Jews had been given an inheritance by God the Gentiles had not. Also, In verse 8 he says God had abounded towards them in all wisdom and prudence, yet a few verses later when Paul says he prays for his readers he says he's praying that God "will give" (future tense) wisdom and understanding about Him. There would be no reason for Paul to pray that God "would give" (future) his readers understanding if he just told that God had already given it to them in the past.

Additionally, in verse 12 he draws a distinction between the two groups when he says, we who before hoped in the Christ. It was the Jews who had previously hoped in the Christ, not the Ephesian Gentiles. This is also the early Christian understanding of the passage. Verses 3-12 are what is known as a Hebraism, it's praise to God. It opens with "Blessed"Peter does the same thing in his first epistle which is addressed to Jewish believers.

 

[Butch5]

Yes. Yes.

And more.. To predestine, or predestinate... is to determine destiny beforehand.

-HisSheep

I suppose it can used in any form as something predetermined. I'm not sure what you mean by destiny.