Predestination and Christ

[Grappler]

Hi all,

The Lord be with you all. Apologies to all for having to clarify the OP. If I'm making reference to predestination - I should at least have scripture texts that uses the word. Hopefully this clarifies the context a little.


It occurred to me that some arguments about Predestination are based on the following text. My assumption is that the words 'before the foundation of the world' mean 'before creation'. In any event the creation of man would have to come after the creation of the world which was to sustain and nourish him.
all texts NASB


Ephesians 1:4-6

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.


Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Before creation, before time, God existed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So how are we to approach the above 3 scriptures which clearly speak of Christ 'before Creation'? In other words we have the triune God and the added complication that reference is made to Christ (not only before his incarnation), but before creation itself.

Any comments would be appreciated.

What are we discussing...the doctrine of the trinity or the doctrine of predestination??

 

[HisSheep]

Sorry this post got so long. I hope it isn't too scattered to be clear. I'm concerned that it will be hard to follow... It's far easier for me to talk than to type. I hope you'll hang in there with me on this.

Hi HisSheep,

The letter is addressed to the church, however, in verses 3-12 Paul is talking "about", not to the Jews. You looked at the pronouns, let's look at them again. He uses first person personal plural pronouns (us, we, our) and second person plural pronouns (you, your). We can see that he is drawing a distinction between two groups, us and you. It seems obvious that the "you" group is His readers. The question is who is the "us" group? In the context of the passage we find references that apply to the Jews but not the Gentiles. For instance, in verse 11 Paul says, 'we have obtained (past tense) and inheritance. The Jews had been given an inheritance by God the Gentiles had not. Also, In verse 8 he says God had abounded towards them in all wisdom and prudence, yet a few verses later when Paul says he prays for his readers he says he's praying that God "will give" (future tense) wisdom and understanding about Him. There would be no reason for Paul to pray that God "would give" (future) his readers understanding if he just told that God had already given it to them in the past.

Additionally, in verse 12 he draws a distinction between the two groups when he says, we who before hoped in the Christ. It was the Jews who had previously hoped in the Christ, not the Ephesian Gentiles. This is also the early Christian understanding of the passage. Verses 3-12 are what is known as a Hebraism, it's praise to God. It opens with "Blessed"Peter does the same thing in his first epistle which is addressed to Jewish believers.

Hi Butch5,

I see what you’re saying. I find this very interesting and it certainly gives me something to think about. I’ll bring this idea up with some of my bible study-buddies too, and see what they have to say. I'm sure that I will consider your observations for long time to come, and will pay attention to the distinction you draw. I can’t find any traditional commentators that see it the way you describe, but that doesn’t mean you’re wrong. I do see that there is SOME of the thing that you describe (a distinction between Israel and New Testament believers) in scripture. Like here:

17 And came and preached peace to you (gentiles) which were afar off, and to them that were nigh (Jews). 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. (Ephesians 2:17-18)

…But always with the understanding that the two have become one in Christ. Like he says here:

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (Ephesians 1:10)

As so often happens on an internet forum, I wish we could speak instead of type. It’d be so much easier… We will not be able to do this topic justice using the forum format.

It seems unlikely that Paul would draw so many distinctions between Old Testament Israel and the church, and speak of them so separately, as you suggest. I say this because Paul so often went to great lengths to erase any distinction between them.

I offer a couple of solid examples here. (again, it’s hard to cover this completely in this format…) A good one is found in the area of Romans 9:6 where Paul essentially says that faithful gentiles are also considered part of Israel:

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Romans 9:6-8)

By this we can also see that some of those who are genetically the children of Abraham are not “Israel†at all… Jesus confirmed this too, in the second half of John 8 when He called so many of the Pharisees the children of the devil. Here’s some of it:

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. (John 8:38-39)

By the "works of Abraham", I think Paul means faithfulness. Genetically, these guys were Israel, but Christ is straight with them about their spiritual identity.

Paul also uses the phrase “the Israel of Godâ€, rather than just plain old “Israelâ€:

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. (Galatians 6:16)

…which has particular meaning for me, because it also speaks of the “graffed†nature of Israel. Here, Paul explains the concept:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. (Romans 11:21-23)

By this we can also see that not ALL the Jews were predestined to salvation. Some fell… Just as many of them fell in the desert (see 1 Corinthians 10).

So… I don’t see as many distinctions as you do, although there seem to be a few; but definitely not in every mention of election and predestination. It cannot be said that all of the genetic Jews are predestined to salvation, nor can it be said that none of the gentiles are…

I want to point out this verse that echo’s Ephesians 1:4, but is perhaps more clear:

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13)

Clearly, Paul is talking about New Testament believers here, (when he says “youâ€) and he states that God has chosen them for salvation from the beginning. They are saved by the sanctifying work of Spirit and through faith, just as all Christians are.

I regard all of those who will ultimately be saved to be what I call “spiritual Israelâ€. I liken that to what Paul calls “the Israel of Godâ€. (see Galatians 6:16 mentioned above) I think this view is strongly supported by Romans 11. I understand that this is a hot debate in Christendom, and I am of the view that Salvation is through Christ alone. Therefore Jews who do not come through Him, cannot (and/or will not) come. All who will come were predestined to come from the beginning. God chooses them and causes them to come:

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple. (Psalm 65:4)

I suppose it can used in any form as something predetermined. I'm not sure what you mean by destiny.

By “predestined†or “destinyâ€, I specifically think of the association that these words have with “destinationâ€. Like if we were driving to St. Louis. St. Louis is the destination. Some folks, when they speak of predestination consider that God has ordered all things, including the very clothes that I am wearing today and what you ate for lunch. I don’t know if I line up with all that, but maybe I do. I guess that doesn’t really matter that much to me. Those things, I regard more like “providence†rather than “predestinationâ€.

To be clear though and to keep to the specific point of the thread, I believe that God has determined beforehand whom He will save and one way or another, during the course of those peoples’ lives, He brings them to Himself through faith by personal revelation. He “reveals†Himself to those He has determined to save. A great many verses support this view, and here is a mighty one, from the Master Himself:

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. (Matthew 11:27)

Ya know that song, "The Day the Music Died" by Don McLean? It asks the question, “Do you believe in God above, if the bible tells you so?†Well, I don’t believe what the bible says just ‘cause it’s in the bible; I read the bible before I was converted, and it didn’t ring true for me in the least. Only AFTER I had a personal run-in with God did I recognize the truths of the bible. I believe in God, and His word, because of a personal revelation, and the change it brought about in my life and in my desires. Since then, every word of the bible has hit home.

We know that He saves all of those whom He wants to save. We know that the omnipotent God can save all if He wants to. We know that none of the sheep end up lost. If they did, He wouldn’t be a very good shepherd.

He can appear in a burning bush, or on a road outside Damascus, or in a dream. He reveals Himself to those He purposes to convince. He is Mighty to save.

-HisSheep

 

[Butch5]

Sorry this post got so long. I hope it isn't too scattered to be clear. I'm concerned that it will be hard to follow... It's far easier for me to talk than to type. I hope you'll hang in there with me on this.

Hi Butch5,

I see what you’re saying. I find this very interesting and it certainly gives me something to think about. I’ll bring this idea up with some of my bible study-buddies too, and see what they have to say. I'm sure that I will consider your observations for long time to come, and will pay attention to the distinction you draw. I can’t find any traditional commentators that see it the way you describe, but that doesn’t mean you’re wrong. I do see that there is SOME of the thing that you describe (a distinction between Israel and New Testament believers) in scripture. Like here:

17 And came and preached peace to you (gentiles) which were afar off, and to them that were nigh (Jews). 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. (Ephesians 2:17-18)

…But always with the understanding that the two have become one in Christ. Like he says here:

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (Ephesians 1:10)

As so often happens on an internet forum, I wish we could speak instead of type. It’d be so much easier… We will not be able to do this topic justice using the forum format.

It seems unlikely that Paul would draw so many distinctions between Old Testament Israel and the church, and speak of them so separately, as you suggest. I say this because Paul so often went to great lengths to erase any distinction between them.

I offer a couple of solid examples here. (again, it’s hard to cover this completely in this format…) A good one is found in the area of Romans 9:6 where Paul essentially says that faithful gentiles are also considered part of Israel:

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Romans 9:6-8)

By this we can also see that some of those who are genetically the children of Abraham are not “Israel” at all… Jesus confirmed this too, in the second half of John 8 when He called so many of the Pharisees the children of the devil. Here’s some of it:

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. (John 8:38-39)

By the "works of Abraham", I think Paul means faithfulness. Genetically, these guys were Israel, but Christ is straight with them about their spiritual identity.

Paul also uses the phrase “the Israel of God”, rather than just plain old “Israel”:

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. (Galatians 6:16)

…which has particular meaning for me, because it also speaks of the “graffed” nature of Israel. Here, Paul explains the concept:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. (Romans 11:21-23)

By this we can also see that not ALL the Jews were predestined to salvation. Some fell… Just as many of them fell in the desert (see 1 Corinthians 10).

So… I don’t see as many distinctions as you do, although there seem to be a few; but definitely not in every mention of election and predestination. It cannot be said that all of the genetic Jews are predestined to salvation, nor can it be said that none of the gentiles are…

I want to point out this verse that echo’s Ephesians 1:4, but is perhaps more clear:

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13)

Clearly, Paul is talking about New Testament believers here, (when he says “you”) and he states that God has chosen them for salvation from the beginning. They are saved by the sanctifying work of Spirit and through faith, just as all Christians are.

I regard all of those who will ultimately be saved to be what I call “spiritual Israel”. I liken that to what Paul calls “the Israel of God”. (see Galatians 6:16 mentioned above) I think this view is strongly supported by Romans 11. I understand that this is a hot debate in Christendom, and I am of the view that Salvation is through Christ alone. Therefore Jews who do not come through Him, cannot (and/or will not) come. All who will come were predestined to come from the beginning. God chooses them and causes them to come:

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple. (Psalm 65:4)

Hi HisSheep,

Let me first give you a link to an article I've put together from some teachings I've read and heard about Ephesians 1:3-14

Ephesians 1

And here is a similar article which is one of the sources of mine. This article address the issue looking at the Greek text.

Ephesians 1:3-14

I don't believe that people were chosen to be saved prior to their believing the Gospel. Let me suggest this, if what I said about Ephesians 1 is correct and Paul is talking about the Jews, that would mean that it was the Jews who were predestined and chosen before the foundation of the world. This can be seen in the OT. God calls Israel His first born and they were chosen. The passage in Thessalonians that says God chose them from the beginning is addressed to the church, I agree. However, Paul doesn't tell us what the beginning is. It could easily be the gospel. Also, the passage, Romans 9:6, I would suggest is not speaking of the Gentiles but is rather limiting Israel. They are not all Israel (of the promise) who are of Israel (Jacob). Rather than adding the Gentiles I believe the passage limits Israel to the children of the promise. I think this fits nicely with Paul's argument. In this passage he is addressing the Jewish believers in the church at Rome. He begins in Chapter 2 verse 17 when he says, 'behold, thou art called a Jew'. He continues this discussion through to chapter 11 verse 13 where he turn his attention to the Gentiles, when he says 'for I speak to you Gentiles.'

I believe predestination and election basically are referring to the Jews. They were the chosen people and predestined to adoption by God. the Gentiles as you pointed out are grafted into these promises.

If you are interested I can also give you a link to some audio teaching that cover this issue of Ephesians 1:3-14. It is teaching what the articles teach that I linked above.

Hope this helps.