Predestination and Election

[Albina]

THE ELECTION AND PREDESTINATION
OF THE BELIEVER (taken from the Monergism site)

:D --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
Isaiah 64:7 And there is no one who calls on Your name, Who stirs himself up to take hold of You...

Isaiah 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
Romans 3:11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.

Joshua 24:15 "...choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve..."
John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you...

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.



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If it is true that there are none that seek after God, call upon His name, choose Him, or receive Him, then how did we believe? John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.

I. How did we believe?

A. His power

1. Ephesians 1:15-19 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power
2. 2 Corinthians 3:3-5 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart. 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
3. Acts 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
4. John 6:63-65 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
5. Isaiah 26:12-13 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. 13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.

B. His gift


1. Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
2. John 3:27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.

C. His grace


1. Acts 18:27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;
2. 1 Peter 1:18-21 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
3. Romans 5:11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

II. Who will believe? John 5:39-44 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. 41 "I do not receive honor from men. 42 "But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 "How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?


A. Those who have been given by the Father to the Son.

1. John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
2. John 17:1-2 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3. John 17:6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

a. "They have kept Your word."

4. John 17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.


a. Christ prays only for them.

5. John 17:11-12 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
6. John 17:24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.


B. The sheep


1. John 10:1-5 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 "But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 "And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 "Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."
2. John 10:10-11 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. 11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
3. John 10:26-29 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

C. The chosen


1. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
2. Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.
3. Numbers 16:1-13
4. Matthew 22:1-14
5. 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

D. As many as were ordained


1. Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
2. Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

E. Whom the Lord wills


1. John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
2. John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (gk.-helko-to drag) him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
3. John 5:21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

III. When did God choose us?


A. From the beginning -- Acts 15:18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works."

1. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
2. Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

IV. Why did He choose us? -- Acts 15:18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works."


A. His foreknowledge

1. 1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge (gk.-prognosis) of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
2. Romans 8:28-29 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
3. What did He foreknow?

a. Acts 15:18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works."
b. 2 Timothy 2:15-19 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."
c. A common heresy being taught among people claiming to be Christians is that, the reason God chose us, was that He foreknew who would choose Him (John 15:16) or who would seek Him (Romans 3:11) or who would call upon His name (Isaiah 64:7) or who would receive (1 Corinthians 2:14) or who would come to Him (John 6:44).This teaching is heretical, glorifies man, and must be stopped with the Word of God.

B. His love


1. Deuteronomy 7:6-8 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. 7 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; 8 "but because the LORD loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
2. Ephesians 1:4-5 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

C. His will and purpose -- Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.


1. Ephesians 1:5,9,11 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
2. Matthew 11:21-27 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 "But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 "And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 "But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you." 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

D. To the praise of His glory and grace


1. Ephesians 1:4-6,11-14 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
2. 2 Corinthians 4:5-7 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us.
3. 1 Corinthians 1:23-31 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God; and righteousness and sanctification and redemption; 31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the LORD."

E. To go and bring forth fruit


1. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
2. Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[cyberjosh]

Welcome to the boards! And great post! God calls us to make our election sure and to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith. God gives us the grace to do that for we could not come to him of ourselves. But not all that recieve the word with joy will be saved but those who hold what they have heard to the end. God has destined those he chose for his glory to be conformed to the image of his Son Jesus and God is the one who grants one to come to Christ.

Now one point of debate that some have is: was God talking to a group or individuals? Some say God predestined individuals to choose himself and be used for his glory. Others say God predestined his elect (saying "you" is plural in Greek), but that He may add who joins the elect body of believers, and that it is those once they are in Christ, as the elect, that are predestined to be conformed. So the idea is between predestined to choose Jesus, or being predestined once in Jesus. Some say both is the whole election process.

Whatever the case, it must be seen that even the wicked had a chance at God's freely offered grace and had equal opportunity - not as if God destined them with no hope of ever being saved. Some people here don't like the idea of free will but it is by the very virtue of that fact that the wicked can justly be sent to hell, for they chose to sin wilfully though there was an offered sacrifice and propitiation for their sins - yet they rejected it.

I'll let you make your own conclusions, but I thought I'd throw those ideas out there.

God Bless & Enjoy your stay here,

~Joshua

 

[Albina]

I beleive we are predestined to choose Jesus, for if The Father does not draw, one will never come to Him.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him to life on the last day.

Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will be merciful to the person I want to be merciful to, and I will be kind to the person I want to be kind to." Rom 9:16 Therefore, God's choice does not depend on a person's will or effort, but on God himself, who shows mercy. Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for this very purpose, to demonstrate my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Rom 9:18 Therefore, God has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses.


Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
Rom 9:21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
Rom 9:23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?

It is obvious from scriptures that man is responsible even though he is unable to repent without God's supernatural intervention

Act 17:30 The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commandeth men that they should all everywhere repent:
Act 17:31 inasmuch as he hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/ ... sov_08.htm

 

[unred typo]

Hello, Albina, welcome to what some call ‘the viper’s pit.’ I’m going to cut your post to ribbons but it’s not because I don’t like you. You seem like a very nice person. I just don’t agree. I hope you don’t mind.

Albina wrote on Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:48 pm

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So the verses are saying, don’t be concerned with the physical body and it’s cravings, nor the worldly desires that keep you away from God but put these away from you and believe what Jesus taught.

Albina wrote:
Romans 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
Isaiah 64:7 And there is no one who calls on Your name, Who stirs himself up to take hold of You...

The Romans verse is to all men everywhere, but the Isaiah verse is written specifically about the nation of Israel during Isaiah’s time. You’re using it out of context when you apply it to all men everywhere.

Albina wrote: Isaiah 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
Romans 3:11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.

This time it is Isaiah who is speaking to the nations, v. 5, and the Romans verse is quoting from an OT passage to prove a point, that there is no difference between the advantage of the Jew and the advantage of being a Gentile since at one time, both Jews and Gentiles were recorded as being apostate. It is not saying not one single person throughout time has ever sought after God. That’s completely unscriptural.

Albina wrote: Joshua 24:15 "...choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve..."
John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you...

Joshua is saying that the choice to follow God is up to the individual, in his case, the individual Israelite but Jesus is speaking to his disciples specifically, not to the individual Israelite or any other person. He chose the disciples, and we are not one of those he chose, are we? I don’t remember Jesus stopping by and asking me to follow him as he walked throughout Israel and all around Judea since I wasn‘t born for a couple thousand years.

Albina wrote: John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

And you forgot, “and if I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me.†Who does the Father seek to draw to himself?

John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him.

Albina wrote: If it is true that there are none that seek after God, call upon His name, choose Him, or receive Him, then how did we believe? John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.

Well, it isn’t true. Now what? How do we believe? We go to God and talk to him about it. He teaches us to love one another. By loving one another we will be pleasing God and following Christ. The Spirit gives life to those who faithfully follow Christ. He that has the Son, has life. Easy, huh? That didn’t hurt too bad, did it?

 

[Albina]

Hi
This is the point
If you call upon the name of Lord it is Him enabling you
if you humble yourself it it Him doing the work in you
If you beleive you are a saved person since faith is a gift from God
Ehp 2:12 So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Php 2:13 for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure. Eph 2:5 even when we were dead because of our offenses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), Eph 2:6 raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavenly realm in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might display the limitless riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God
Eph 2:9 and not the result of works, lest anyone boast. Eph 2:10 For we are his masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared long ago to be our way of life.

Paul is using Isaiah as an example for us now

Rom 10:10 For a person believes with his heart and is justified, and a person declares with his mouth and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be ashamed."
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Greek, because they all have the same Lord, who gives richly to all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."


Paul is speaking in this one about spiritual Israel
Rom 9:6 Now it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all Israelites truly belong to Israel,
Rom 9:7 and not all of Abraham's descendants are his true descendants. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that descendants will be named for you."
Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of natural descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as descendants.

Total Depravity

Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness serves to confirm God's righteousness, what can we say? God is not unrighteous when he vents his wrath on us, is he? (I am talking in human terms.)
Rom 3:6 Of course not! Otherwise, how could God judge the world?
Rom 3:7 For if through my falsehood God's truthfulness increases to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?
Rom 3:8 Or can we say-as some people slander us by claiming that we say-"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved!
Rom 3:9 What, then, does this mean? Are we Jews any better off? Not at all! For we have already accused everyone, both Jews and Greeks, of being under the power of sin.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, "Not even one person is righteous.
Rom 3:11 No one understands. No one searches for God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned away. Together they have become worthless. No one shows kindness, not even one person!
Rom 3:13 Their throats are open graves. With their tongues they practice deception. The venom of poisonous snakes is under their lips.
Rom 3:14 Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood.
Rom 3:16 Ruin and misery mark their ways.
Rom 3:17 They have not learned the path to peace.
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says applies to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore, no human being will be justified in God's sight by means of the works prescribed by the law, for through the law comes the full knowledge of sin. Rom 3:21 But now, apart from the law, God's righteousness is revealed and is attested by the Law and the Prophets-
Rom 3:22 God's righteousness through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction,
Rom 3:23 since all have sinned and continue to fall short of God's glory.
Rom 3:24 By his grace they are justified freely through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Only Faith can please God
Heb 11:6 and without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him.

Rom 4:16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not of works, that no man should glory.

Rom 5:1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; Rom 5:2 through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Good posts regarding God's Sovereignty. However, I must also remind everyone that there are two types of elections as well---- an election of race and an election of grace.

"When it is race, it is, "Whom I (God) have chosen."

When it is grace, it is, "Whosoever will, may come and take the water of life freely."

When it is race, it is, "I have called thee by my name; thou art mine." In grace it is "Whosoever believeth," of whom the Lord says: "They are mine.â€Â

In grace it is, "Come." "

One is the race of Israelites as God promised great things to them because of the faith of Abraham and it is thru them that the people of grace came (those that he reserved that did not bow to Baal).

Most of the Christian nations today are unbeknownst to themselves the actual seed of Abraham just like the Jews.

 

[stranger]

. . .
Most of the Christian nations today are unbeknownst to themselves the actual seed of Abraham just like the Jews.

Hi tim,

Some of the children of Abraham who are blood descendants believe that Jesus is the Messiah and some (most for now until the full number of gentiles come in) don't. When you say the actual seed of Abraham it surely refers to blood descendants promised to Abraham who believe that Jesus is the Messaih. Gentiles like myself and presumeably yourself are children of Abraham by promise only but we are not blood descendants. Bloodlines are important in God's purposes.

 

[Albina]

Rom 8:28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth;
Rom 8:34 who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Php 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
Php 3:3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh:

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Gentiles like myself and presumeably yourself are children of Abraham by promise only but we are not blood descendants.

I don't know about you, but I am a blood descendant of Abraham. I am of the tribe of Joseph. I am also an American. Look more closely at my avatar.

 

[stranger]

Gentiles like myself and presumeably yourself are children of Abraham by promise only but we are not blood descendants.

I don't know about you, but I am a blood descendant of Abraham. I am of the tribe of Joseph. I am also an American. Look more closely at my avatar.

Help me out - stars and stripes and the union jack? Are you Jewish is what I am getting at?
How does Genesis 48:19 relate to you?

 

[mondar]

Albina,
Your a pleasant surprise. Where did you come from? Have you been lurking? It was very refreshing to read you post on the grace of God. It was a very orderly and well thought out post.

One of the things about the biblical doctrine of election that is very humbling to me is the fact that the scriptures teach that we had some sort of a relationship with God from eternity past. Eph 1:4 says that he has "chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." Of course I was no around then, except in the mind of God. Since I was not around in eternity past, it leaves the decision for my salvation and my relationship with God totally in the hands of God. This relationship I have with God, being a child of God, is a predestined relationship (Eph 1:5 "Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"). I know that God chose me, and that there was no good thing in me for him to choose me. He chose me because it was his own good pleasure. This is stated at the end Eph 1:5 and into verse 6.

Albina, I thank God for what you have posted. Concerning the grace of God, some unbelievers on this BB hate the biblical doctrines of the grace of God and want to "cut it to ribbons." But again, others of us will thank God for his grace.

Mondar

 

[tim-from-pa]

Help me out - stars and stripes and the union jack? Are you Jewish is what I am getting at?
How does Genesis 48:19 relate to you?

No, I am not Jewish. Jews are mainly from the tribe of Judah, hence the name. Genesis 48:19 does not apply to the Jew. There are basically two tribes with the Jews (well, partly 3 if you include some of the priestly lines of Levi). The rest of the tribes never returned to the land of the Israel and became as Gentiles forgetting their identity the bible teaches--- yet, it is this (lost) tribe of Joseph that had the birthright (not the Jews) as it passed from Abraham-Isaac-Jacob(Israel) and Joseph. Judah received only the rights for the law and royal lineages, nothing else.

What was the birthright? To become a great nation. To become many nations. To have descendants as the sands of the sea and stars of heaven.... to colonize (east west north and south) and as Isaiah prophesied, to have "a new name". They were to become militarily mighty and push their enemies to the ends of the earth. This is Israel, not Judah.

In other words, God saw His people as two nations and this is why prophecies to Judah often sound punitive, and prophecies to Israel sound almost "Christian". Many theologians often see Isaiah 40 onward as from another author because the tone sounds so different. No, Isaiah was now addressing Israel in the isles. Israel's purpose was supposed to be a light to the nations. Judah (the Jews) retained the Law.

In the end, this grace crowd and Law crowd will be united into one nation again according to Ezekiel 37, but they were separated, just as the United States had two peoples of Yankees and Rebels which almost became two nations.

In tracing the lost tribes, one sees that many became the Celts, Saxons, etc. and these migrated over to the isles of Britain, NW Europe and the United States today. In other words, the people of the flags in my avatar are the peoples of the tribe of Joseph and we have as much, if not more inheritance than the Jew, and that includes eventually the land of Israel when it comes time for the Lord to rejoin us.

 

[Albina]

Thank you for making me aware that there is no author name on the article.
Please be advised, that the Predestination and Election, was copied and pasted from my favorite site called Monergism

http://www.monergism.com/

 

[mondar]

Thank you for making me aware that there is no author name on the article.
Please be advised, that the Predestination and Election, was copied and pasted from my favorite site called Monergism

http://www.monergism.com/

I suspected it was a paste. Great link, I have been there before many times.

 

[Albina]

it is a great link!

 

[Drew]

Concerning the grace of God, some unbelievers on this BB hate the biblical doctrines of the grace of God and want to "cut it to ribbons." But again, others of us will thank God for his grace.

I would be very careful of making statements like this. While unred might have been slightly harsh (and only slightly) when he made a reference to "cut to ribbons", you tread on very dangerous ground when you claim to know who is a true believer and who is not.

Can we please all try to determine what the truth about election is by looking to the Scriptures and considering various arguments about what they mean?

 

[Drew]

Whatever the case, it must be seen that even the wicked had a chance at God's freely offered grace and had equal opportunity - not as if God destined them with no hope of ever being saved. Some people here don't like the idea of free will but it is by the very virtue of that fact that the wicked can justly be sent to hell, for they chose to sin wilfully though there was an offered sacrifice and propitiation for their sins - yet they rejected it.

I agree with this and would expand on it as follows. The human faculty that is involved in addressing matters of justice can, I would claim, make no sense of the idea of punishing someone for an act over which they had no power of contrary choice. And this is exactly what election entails - if Fred is not a member of the elect, Fred is absolutely guaranteed for hell, no matter what he does. This notion "bounces off" our minds as unintelligible - and rightly so I would think. I submit that humans cannot make sense of the idea of "predestination to an eternal hell" and this is extremely powerful evidence that there is something wrong with the election position, at least in the "people are elected for salvation and unto damnation" sense.

Now I happen to think that the Scriptures do not teach election (in this sense) in the first place. But me grant, for the sake of argument only, that the election position is at least a possible reading of what the Scriptures teach. The fact that we can make no sense of punishment for a deed over which one has no control should assist us in resolving the ambiguity away from the election position. People wil say "yes, but you are relying on human wisdom, not God's wisdom".

I do not know about the rest of you, but I do not really see this as a workable distinction. When I "think my thoughts", they are always my thoughts in the sense that they originate from my mind. Of course, I willingly dispose myself to be open to God's guidance and to accept his wisdom. And I believe that He does guide our thoughts. But it is not like there is a "me" voice in my head and a separate "God" voice in there as well. There is only one voice, and that is "Drew's voice" as guided by God to the extent that I am genuinely open to such guidance. And only I and God know whether I am indeed open to such guidance.

 

[mondar]

Concerning the grace of God, some unbelievers on this BB hate the biblical doctrines of the grace of God and want to "cut it to ribbons." But again, others of us will thank God for his grace.

I would be very careful of making statements like this. While unred might have been slightly harsh (and only slightly) when he made a reference to "cut to ribbons", you tread on very dangerous ground when you claim to know who is a true believer and who is not.

Can we please all try to determine what the truth about election is by looking to the Scriptures and considering various arguments about what they mean?

Drew, unreds "slightly harsh" attitude has nothing to do with the issue of his salvation. Neither does it have to do with anyones salvation. In one of the threads the subject of justification came up. Someone quoted Galatians 1:9 and pronounced my position of justification by faith alone as anathema. That is nothing new for me, the council of Trent has done the same thing. I am not sure, I think unred made that statement about Galatians 1:9. Actually, the anathema statement in relation to a position on justification is correct. To add works to faith in justification has eternal consequences. In Gal 2:16 it says "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." While I would not use this to prove justification by faith alone, I mention this text because it is only a chapter away from Galatians 1:9. "As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." Those who add works to justification are no different then the Judiasers in the book of Galatians. By now you know that I believe the issue of justification is not just a doctrinal issue, but one which determines eternal destiny. To add works to faith is a heresy. As I write this, do not misunderstand. It is not an emotional thing, it is what I believe is a proper reading of scriptures.

I see no reason for myself to be alarmed when one pronounces the anathema of Galatians 1:9 and implys I am going to hell because I believe in justification by faith alone. I know that my salvation does not lie in the hands of mistaken men, but it lies in the hands of God who is full of mercy and grace. If my statement sounded hostile, you all have my apologies, but on the other hand, yes, when unred proclaims his faith in his own ability to please God apart from the shed blood of Jesus Christ (denies justification by faith alone) I see it has the words of an unsaved person.

The proper scriptural view on justification is in Romans 4:
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Notice the two opposite statements.
4 Now to him that worketh
5 But to him that worketh not
In the first the reward is only debt. The one who works, must achieve perfection.
In verse 5 the reward of the one who "worketh not" his faith is counted as righteousness, that is the righteousness of Christ. Chapter 4 talks about imputed faith. Inputed faith (faith counted as righteousness) is the only thing that saves. Verse 4 and works, brings only debt.

Justification on the basis of works and faith is never justification. Works are the fruits of justification, but never the cause of justification. The one who adds works to his justification adds debt, and it is a debt that never can be paid. Only the blood of Christ can mediate for us. No work done by me or any other man or angel can mediate. Gods wrath is propitiated by Christ's death and Christ's death alone. The Jews tried to add circumcision to Christs blood in Galatians, Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. and it resulted in Christ blood not being of profit. If works of any kind are added to the merit of Christs blood, then you have not Christs blood. As Galatians 5:2 says, "Christ shall profit you nothing."

By the way, I think the subject of election and predestination is a very worthwhile subject. Therefore, I hope we can continue the discussion of God's choice of who he will save, and his action of predestining a certain people to fellowship with him.

 

[stranger]

Help me out - stars and stripes and the union jack? Are you Jewish is what I am getting at?
How does Genesis 48:19 relate to you?

No, I am not Jewish. Jews are mainly from the tribe of Judah, hence the name. Genesis 48:19 does not apply to the Jew. There are basically two tribes with the Jews (well, partly 3 if you include some of the priestly lines of Levi). The rest of the tribes never returned to the land of the Israel and became as Gentiles forgetting their identity the bible teaches--- yet, it is this (lost) tribe of Joseph that had the birthright (not the Jews) as it passed from Abraham-Isaac-Jacob(Israel) and Joseph. Judah received only the rights for the law and royal lineages, nothing else.

What was the birthright? To become a great nation. To become many nations. To have descendants as the sands of the sea and stars of heaven.... to colonize (east west north and south) and as Isaiah prophesied, to have "a new name". They were to become militarily mighty and push their enemies to the ends of the earth. This is Israel, not Judah.

In other words, God saw His people as two nations and this is why prophecies to Judah often sound punitive, and prophecies to Israel sound almost "Christian". Many theologians often see Isaiah 40 onward as from another author because the tone sounds so different. No, Isaiah was now addressing Israel in the isles. Israel's purpose was supposed to be a light to the nations. Judah (the Jews) retained the Law.

In the end, this grace crowd and Law crowd will be united into one nation again according to Ezekiel 37, but they were separated, just as the United States had two peoples of Yankees and Rebels which almost became two nations.

In tracing the lost tribes, one sees that many became the Celts, Saxons, etc. and these migrated over to the isles of Britain, NW Europe and the United States today. In other words, the people of the flags in my avatar are the peoples of the tribe of Joseph and we have as much, if not more inheritance than the Jew, and that includes eventually the land of Israel when it comes time for the Lord to rejoin us.

Hi Tim,

Thanks for that explanation. So you are a gentile like I am because you are not a Jew by your own admission. Let us go back to the scriptures and the categories of Jew and gentile as expressed by the apostolic authority of Paul. What you offer in contrast to this is an interpretation of history with an angle that is almost 'Mormon' - in reference to a lost tribe (?) and the USA.

A few years ago I had the privilege of meeting some Messianic Jews. There have always been Messianic Jews - all the disciples of Jesus were Messianic Jews, and the early, early church was primarily Jewish. From this base the church spread to the gentile world as, at the same time, a hardening came upon Israel and a veil fell over the eyes of those who did not believe Jesus. In Romans 9-11 Israel is hardened 'until the full number of gentiles come in. What you and I are apart of is the 'full number of the gentiles coming in'. Hence I affirm that all gentiles in Christ are the children of Abraham by promise, while I also affirm that the Messianic Jews are children of Abraham by promise and blood descent.

Now I know that after 70AD the Jews were dispersed in an unprecedented fashion, as well as during the exiles of the northern tribes (722BC) to which you refer, as well as to the exile of Judah (586BC). Some Jews would also have been dispersed in part throughout the Roman Empire prior to the destruction of Jerusalem. So while some Jews were absorbed - I do belief that that is not the case for every Jew.

The reason for saying this is because God's purpose for the Jew and Israel is ongoing even after the destruction of Jerusalem. This purpose is within the purposes of God for the church and Israel. Replacement theology misunderstands these continuing purposes. Of course the reinstitution of the nation of Israel in 1948 is further proof of this, as is the conflict surrounding Israel to this day. So Isarael and the Jew are very much preserved and back on the world radar. This is why I am a little surprised at attempts to track what happened to the Jews in the so called interim period ie without reference to God's prophesy concerning the Jew.

Besides just as a bloodline can be lost through intermarriage, who is to say that it cannot be reclaimed through marriage over many generations? The means by which God presevers His promises and purposes are not limited to our view of history.

But we are gentiles talking about Jews - would it not be expedient to ask the Jews about the Jews themselves? And in doing so not to simply confirm what we already believe - but in an attitude of fear in the Lord because we are talking about a people who have paid double for their sins. My approach is to put such matters on the 'back burner' - don't read a book or books and make up your mind because of what you have read too hastily, what's the rush?. Such interpretations of history are rewritten even as the next edition comes off the printing press.

 

[unred typo]

Albina on Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:52 pm
Hi
This is the point
If you call upon the name of Lord it is Him enabling you
if you humble yourself it it Him doing the work in you
If you beleive you are a saved person since faith is a gift from God
Ehp 2:12 So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Php 2:13 for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure. Eph 2:5 even when we were dead because of our offenses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), Eph 2:6 raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavenly realm in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might display the limitless riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God
Eph 2:9 and not the result of works, lest anyone boast. Eph 2:10 For we are his masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared long ago to be our way of life.

Ok, let’s stick to the point. I don’t intend on tackling all five points of Calvinism that you cut and paste from a website. This is a discussion forum and not an online sermon comparison anyways.

If you call upon the name of Lord and it is Him enabling you, and if you humble yourself and it is Him doing the work in you and if you believe, you are a saved person since faith is a gift from Him , then why doesn’t God enable, humble, and save all men? Is his arm shortened that it cannot save?

No, God could enable, humble, and save all men by an act of his sovereign will, but he has sovereignly determined that we should be responsible for our own destinies and that those who choose to love and follow him will be saved. Since we are frail humans who cannot be perfect, he has provided a perfect sacrifice to cover our sins and to cleanse us when we repent. Now when you get that straight in your head, you can read all those verses in the light in which they were written instead of jaded to the Calvinist view. Too bad we couldn’t just cut/paste the truth into our heads, huh?