Predestination and Election

[Drew]

I suggest that passages in Romans that deal with election and pre-destination have often been misinterpreted as statements about individual persons when, in reality, Paul was addressing groups of people in respect to issues of election / predestination.

I think that the following assertion (which I will credit to NT Wright and hope that I am not misrepresenting him) concerning what Romans is all about is worth considering: Paul's intention in writing Romans is to:

1. Show how God has been faithful to his covenant with Abraham by providing a "faithful Israel" - in the person of Jesus who does what the nation of Israel failed to do, namely solve the sin problem - and has created a "true" people of Israel whose membership is determined by "circumcision of the heart, not physical circumcision";

2. Following on from (1), the Jewish Christians and the Gentile Christians need to get along - the gospel is for the "Jew first, and equally for the Greek".

If we forget the covenant context and forget that Paul was deeply concerned about unity in the church at Rome, we can come to see texts like the following (Romans 9:22) as theological statements about individuals:

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

I tend to see this text as describing God's "predestination" of certain groups of people to serve His purposes, not predestination of individual persons. There are other sets of verses in chapter 9 which, to me, strongly establish that the kind of "predestination / election" that Paul is talking about in Romans has meaning at the level of groups of people, not individuals. Consider the following from Romans 9:

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the (V)children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He (AU)prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25As He says also in Hosea,"I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'" 26"AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

In the second of these texts, Paul seems to be clearly talking about the true church - comprising both Jews and Gentiles - as a vessel of mercy. He is not talking about individual persons being elected or pre-destined to salvation, he is talking about the church. To quote Todd McClure (I added the bold):

If the doctrine of election and predestination is to be seen in the context of covenant, then this leads to a nationalistic view of predestination rather than an individualistic view. Galatians 3:8 (“The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abrahamâ€Â), along with Romans chapter nine, do lead us in the direction that Paul is using the election of God as part of his argument for the righteousness of God in His faithfulness to His covenant to redeem all of creation to Himself through His Son. If the context of covenant moves one’s theology in this direction, I could see this being an argument for Barth’s Christocentric and Unlimited Atonement; that Christ died for all people and the effects of Christ’s death is universal to all people.

 

[cyberjosh]

In Jude 1:4 were those appointed long ago to be condemned refering to people past, present, and future who were appointed to destruction by God eternity past, or to some people who were disobedient before the flood who have been long since appointed for destruction & judgement (like the angels who did not keep their boundary)?

~Josh

 

[unred typo]

In Jude 1:4 were those appointed long ago to be condemned refering to people past, present, and future who were appointed to destruction by God eternity past, or to some people who were disobedient before the flood who have been long since appointed for destruction & judgement (like the angels who did not keep their boundary)?

~Josh

Are you referring to this?

Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


Cyber, they are not personally ordained to be ungodly. Those who are ungodly were previously ordained to be condemned. If I previously ordain upon the day of my marriage that any of my children and grandchildren that are smokers are going to be disinherited, those who become smokers were before of old ordained to this condemnation.

 

[cyberjosh]

Cyber, they are not personally ordained to be ungodly. Those who are ungodly were previously ordained to be condemned. If I previously ordain upon the day of my marriage that any of my children and grandchildren that are smokers are going to be disinherited, those who become smokers were before of old ordained to this condemnation.

Hmmm... In that same sense could it not also be said of the elect that God predestined the group (body) of the elect for conformity to the image of Christ, while it is the individual's task to enter into the predestined body/group of the elect (making the elect non-specific regarding individuals)? Or does this deny the foreknowledge of God in knowing the actions & fate of individuals even before they were born?

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[unred typo]

cybershark5886 on Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:16 pm wrote:
Hmmm... In that same sense could it not also be said of the elect that God predestined the group (body) of the elect for conformity to the image of Christ, while it is the individual's task to enter into the predestined body/group of the elect (making the elect non-specific regarding individuals)? Or does this deny the foreknowledge of God in knowing the actions & fate of individuals even before they were born?

God Bless,

~Josh

I would say, yes, it definitely could be applied in the same sense to that instance of non-specific predestination. Does this deny the foreknowledge of God in knowing the actions and fate of individuals before they were born? Probably, but who says such knowledge exists? Throw me some verses on that and let’s examine them. It is my personal opinion that such future knowledge of individuals is not what the Bible means by the word ‘foreknowledge.’

 

[wingnut]

How does predestination work?

The same way a Builder builds a house. He owns a piece of land. He conceives of a plan for the house. Then he has the means to have the foundation laid, orders the bricks and hires a bricklayer to build the structure. Then he calls in contractors to finish the house, and viola - what began as an idea, is brought to pass, exactly according to the plan.

Just as Josh and red_undo seem to be intimating, God has an overall idea for the house, but the specifics get sorted out as the house goes along.

Here is my challenge to all.

Find me a prophecy/scripture in the Bible which shows that every detail of the future is mapped out. That is not how God operates.

God has a general plan for what he wishes to achieve. He can prophesy how things will turn out simply because he has the power to bring things to pas as things go along. If God wants to keep Israel in Egypt a little longer, he hardens Pharaoh's heart. When Israel prove uncooperative in the wildernis, God just keeps them there a little longer. But ultimately they get to the Promised Land in the right attitude. When they ask for a King, God gives them one, even though He thinks its a bad idea (which it was). Through all this give and take and interaction with uncooperative man, one thing is for sure. Ultimately God holds the winning hand, and he always wins. His will always is done. What He predestins (sp?), ultimately will come to pass.

 

[Drew]

Hello wingnut:

I happen to agree entirely with your post and would add the following: we often project onto God our tendency to believe that all the details must be worked out in advance in order to assure a specific outcome. I think that this not correct and that it can be shown that, depending on the goal to be achieved and certain other variables, outcomes can indeed be basically guaranteed, even if certain things are "unknown" in advance by the agent that is seeking the outcome.

A simple example: Let's say that I play tennis against Roger Federer (I suck at tennis and he is one of the world's best players). Let's say that Roger would like to win in 3 straight sets in less than an hour. Can he assure this outcome even if he does not know how I will respond to his shots (which direction I will move, whether I will approach the net or stay on the baseline)?

Obviously, he can. The fact that he does not know everything about what I will do does not impede the certainty of his attaining victory in three sets in less than an hour. Short of breaking a leg or dropping dead, Roger Federer can guarantee the desired outcome.

I think that we underestimate the subtlety and sophistication of God. He can assure certain outcomes without knowing everything in advance.

 

[stranger]

Hello wingnut:

I happen to agree entirely with your post and would add the following: we often project onto God our tendency to believe that all the details must be worked out in advance in order to assure a specific outcome. I think that this not correct and that it can be shown that, depending on the goal to be achieved and certain other variables, outcomes can indeed be basically guaranteed, even if certain things are "unknown" in advance by the agent that is seeking the outcome.

A simple example: Let's say that I play tennis against Roger Federer (I *bleep* at tennis and he is one of the world's best players). Let's say that Roger would like to win in 3 straight sets in less than an hour. Can he assure this outcome even if he does not know how I will respond to his shots (which direction I will move, whether I will approach the net or stay on the baseline)?

Obviously, he can. The fact that he does not know everything about what I will do does not impede the certainty of his attaining victory in three sets in less than an hour. Short of breaking a leg or dropping dead, Roger Federer can guarantee the desired outcome.

I think that we underestimate the subtlety and sophistication of God. He can assure certain outcomes without knowing everything in advance.

Hi Drew,

Federer is arguably the best tennis player the world has ever seen but he is still a man. So your illustration compares man (you) to another man (Roger). As far as men go your arguement can be sustained. But what happens when we replace Roger with God? The difference is that God knows everything comprehensively - if you can accept that God knows everything. Now what is more difficult to create man in His own image and likeness OR the outcome of a tennis game between you and Roger moment by moment, point by point? Open Theism? What is the attraction?

 

[unred typo]

quote by stranger on Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:31 am

Federer is arguably the best tennis player the world has ever seen but he is still a man. So your illustration compares man (you) to another man (Roger). As far as men go your arguement can be sustained. But what happens when we replace Roger with God? The difference is that God knows everything comprehensively - if you can accept that God knows everything. Now what is more difficult to create man in His own image and likeness OR the outcome of a tennis game between you and Roger moment by moment, point by point? Open Theism? What is the attraction?

God knows everything there is to know. The future is literally nothing to know as yet. The reason God can say inexplicably what will occur in the great unknown future is that he has power to make his plans happen. Man does not have such power since he hasn’t got the ability to say with certainty that he will even take his next breath.

A tennis match with God would not only be a guaranteed winner for God but he would be able to use all resources at his command to bring about the desired outcome. A little breeze, a flutter of the net, a slip of the wrist or racket, and poor Drew wouldn’t even be able to hit one ball if God so willed. But you don’t understand the nature of this experience on earth. God is not all about winning against us. He is for us. He wants us to win against Satan. He wants us to choose to be on his team and when we do so, he will use his resources in our favor. We just have to make sure we are on the right side of the net.
8-)

 

[unred typo]

quote by wingnut on Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:00 am
How does predestination work?

The same way a Builder builds a house. He owns a piece of land. He conceives of a plan for the house. Then he has the means to have the foundation laid, orders the bricks and hires a bricklayer to build the structure. Then he calls in contractors to finish the house, and viola - what began as an idea, is brought to pass, exactly according to the plan.

Just as Josh and red_undo seem to be intimating, God has an overall idea for the house, but the specifics get sorted out as the house goes along.

Here is my challenge to all.

Find me a prophecy/scripture in the Bible which shows that every detail of the future is mapped out. That is not how God operates.

God has a general plan for what he wishes to achieve. He can prophesy how things will turn out simply because he has the power to bring things to pas as things go along. If God wants to keep Israel in Egypt a little longer, he hardens Pharaoh's heart. When Israel prove uncooperative in the wildernis, God just keeps them there a little longer. But ultimately they get to the Promised Land in the right attitude. When they ask for a King, God gives them one, even though He thinks its a bad idea (which it was). Through all this give and take and interaction with uncooperative man, one thing is for sure. Ultimately God holds the winning hand, and he always wins. His will always is done. What He predestins (sp?), ultimately will come to pass.

I really like that analogy, wingnut, and I hate analogies. You have hit the nail on the head with the building illustration. God predestines the general plan and what he wants the outcome to be and then he uses man and angels and all his other resources as needed to bring it to completion. There is no need to assume that the house is already existent in another dimension of time or space or whatever these people believe. God is active on the jobsite right now and overseeing the work as it progresses.
:fadein:

 

[Heidi]

THE ELECTION AND PREDESTINATION
OF THE BELIEVER (taken from the Monergism site)

:D --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
Isaiah 64:7 And there is no one who calls on Your name, Who stirs himself up to take hold of You...

Isaiah 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
Romans 3:11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.

Joshua 24:15 "...choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve..."
John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you...

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it is true that there are none that seek after God, call upon His name, choose Him, or receive Him, then how did we believe? John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.

I. How did we believe?

A. His power

1. Ephesians 1:15-19 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power
2. 2 Corinthians 3:3-5 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart. 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
3. Acts 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
4. John 6:63-65 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
5. Isaiah 26:12-13 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. 13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.

B. His gift


1. Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
2. John 3:27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.

C. His grace


1. Acts 18:27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;
2. 1 Peter 1:18-21 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
3. Romans 5:11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

II. Who will believe? John 5:39-44 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. 41 "I do not receive honor from men. 42 "But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 "How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?


A. Those who have been given by the Father to the Son.

1. John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
2. John 17:1-2 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3. John 17:6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

a. "They have kept Your word."

4. John 17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.


a. Christ prays only for them.

5. John 17:11-12 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
6. John 17:24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.


B. The sheep


1. John 10:1-5 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 "But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 "And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 "Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."
2. John 10:10-11 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. 11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
3. John 10:26-29 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

C. The chosen


1. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
2. Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.
3. Numbers 16:1-13
4. Matthew 22:1-14
5. 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

D. As many as were ordained


1. Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
2. Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

E. Whom the Lord wills


1. John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
2. John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (gk.-helko-to drag) him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
3. John 5:21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

III. When did God choose us?


A. From the beginning -- Acts 15:18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works."

1. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
2. Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

IV. Why did He choose us? -- Acts 15:18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works."


A. His foreknowledge

1. 1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge (gk.-prognosis) of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
2. Romans 8:28-29 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
3. What did He foreknow?

a. Acts 15:18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works."
b. 2 Timothy 2:15-19 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."
c. A common heresy being taught among people claiming to be Christians is that, the reason God chose us, was that He foreknew who would choose Him (John 15:16) or who would seek Him (Romans 3:11) or who would call upon His name (Isaiah 64:7) or who would receive (1 Corinthians 2:14) or who would come to Him (John 6:44).This teaching is heretical, glorifies man, and must be stopped with the Word of God.

B. His love


1. Deuteronomy 7:6-8 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. 7 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; 8 "but because the LORD loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
2. Ephesians 1:4-5 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

C. His will and purpose -- Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.


1. Ephesians 1:5,9,11 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
2. Matthew 11:21-27 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 "But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 "And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 "But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you." 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

D. To the praise of His glory and grace


1. Ephesians 1:4-6,11-14 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
2. 2 Corinthians 4:5-7 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us.
3. 1 Corinthians 1:23-31 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God; and righteousness and sanctification and redemption; 31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the LORD."

E. To go and bring forth fruit


1. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
2. Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

And considering that Romans 3:11 says: 'There is no one righteous, not even one. There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God," then how do you suppose we can seek God without contradicting that verse? :o

The answer is simple; God draws us to himself and puts his Spirit in us to give us the desire to seek God. So seeking God comes from God himself, not man who is not righteous on his own. So again you need to make sure your interpretation contradicts no other scripture.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Heidi on Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:27 am

And considering that Romans 3:11 says: 'There is no one righteous, not even one. There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God," then how do you suppose we can seek God without contradicting that verse?

The answer is simple; God draws us to himself and puts his Spirit in us to give us the desire to seek God. So seeking God comes from God himself, not man who is not righteous on his own. So again you need to make sure your interpretation contradicts no other scripture.

Maybe we shouldn’t try to retranslate all the rest of the Bible to accommodate this one verse. Maybe we should try to translate this one verse so that our translation doesn’t conflict with all the rest of scripture, Heidi.

It’s simpler than you have imagined, actually. The explanations that were written to you by Drew which you have consistently ignored, give you the answer. This verse that says none seek after God is about Paul speaking to a specific problem, just as the verses about election in other parts of Romans (that you love to take out of context) have another meaning in the text than what you have imagined. You can’t lift out every verse that has the word ‘elect,’ ‘predestined,’ or ‘foreknow’, give them your own meaning and lump them into one ridiculous doctrine.

So how can we seek God when the verse in Romans says that there was a time when both Jews and Gentiles were apostate? Well, to state the obvious, that was then and this is not then. There was a time when the world didn’t seek after God, (except for a few, too few to mention until later in the chapter when they are called ‘my people’ ) , but that is NOT ALL people from the beginning of creation, Heidi. I can prove it to you from hundreds of references that speak of those who are righteous before God. We can start with righteous Abel, whose deeds were right and his brother’s were evil. Let’s just see what you do to mess that one up first.

 

[Heidi]

quote by Heidi on Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:27 am

And considering that Romans 3:11 says: 'There is no one righteous, not even one. There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God," then how do you suppose we can seek God without contradicting that verse?

The answer is simple; God draws us to himself and puts his Spirit in us to give us the desire to seek God. So seeking God comes from God himself, not man who is not righteous on his own. So again you need to make sure your interpretation contradicts no other scripture.

Maybe we shouldn’t try to retranslate all the rest of the Bible to accommodate this one verse. Maybe we should try to translate this one verse so that our translation doesn’t conflict with all the rest of scripture, Heidi.

It’s simpler than you have imagined, actually. The explanations that were written to you by Drew which you have consistently ignored, give you the answer. This verse that says none seek after God is about Paul speaking to a specific problem, just as the verses about election in other parts of Romans (that you love to take out of context) have another meaning in the text than what you have imagined. You can’t lift out every verse that has the word ‘elect,’ ‘predestined,’ or ‘foreknow’, give them your own meaning and lump them into one ridiculous doctrine.

So how can we seek God when the verse in Romans says that there was a time when both Jews and Gentiles were apostate? Well, to state the obvious, that was then and this is not then. There was a time when the world didn’t seek after God, (except for a few, too few to mention until later in the chapter when they are called ‘my people’ ) , but that is NOT ALL people from the beginning of creation, Heidi. I can prove it to you from hundreds of references that speak of those who are righteous before God. We can start with righteous Abel, whose deeds were right and his brother’s were evil. Let’s just see what you do to mess that one up first.

We have to know all the verses in scripture to form interpretations because scripture does not lie. So instead of reading the bible trying to make scripture contradict itself, all you have to do is try to reconcile scripture together and then you'll find the correct interpretation. But only born again Christians can do that because as 1 Corinthians 2:14 explains, the man without the Spirit cannot understand God.

 

[unred typo]

We have to know all the verses in scripture to form interpretations because scripture does not lie. So instead of reading the bible trying to make scripture contradict itself, all you have to do is try to reconcile scripture together and then you'll find the correct interpretation. But only born again Christians can do that because as 1 Corinthians 2:14 explains, the man without the Spirit cannot understand God.

I have news for you, Heidi, you are not the only person who claims to be born of the Spirit. By your own definition of what it takes to be born again, I would be as much born again as you are. If you are infallible in your theology about election and predestination, why do many other born again believers disagree with you? I don't try to "make scripture contradict itself." I try to get the entire Bible to be reconciled to the God that we know and love who is no phony con artist who pretends to be love and mercy while sending people to hell that he could just as easily save.

Telling me that I can't understand your position on scripture does not answer my post. I do understand your position as it once was my own which I taught for 20+ years.

 

[Drew]

One of the things about the biblical doctrine of election that is very humbling to me is the fact that the scriptures teach that we had some sort of a relationship with God from eternity past. Eph 1:4 says that he has "chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." Of course I was no around then, except in the mind of God. Since I was not around in eternity past, it leaves the decision for my salvation and my relationship with God totally in the hands of God. This relationship I have with God, being a child of God, is a predestined relationship (Eph 1:5 "Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"). I know that God chose me, and that there was no good thing in me for him to choose me. He chose me because it was his own good pleasure. This is stated at the end Eph 1:5 and into verse 6.

I intend to mount an argument that, contrary to a popularly held view, the "predestination" texts in Ephesians 1 do not apply to Christians generally, but rather only to the New Testament prophets and saints as per Eph 3:5:

which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit

This argument is largely inspired by material I have found at the following web address (I do not know the person's name).

http://www.angelfire.com/ab8/hobbes

In order to make this digestable and to not discourage the reader, I intend to present this argument in a series of posts.

One of the underpinnings of this argument will be a supporting argument to the effect that what Paul writes in part of chapters 2 and 3 serves to specifically determine who exactly is being pre-destined as per the material in Ephesians 1.

In Eph 3:3 we have:

"that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief"

I submit that that the "stuff he wrote before" is precisely the stuff in Eph 1:3-14, which contains the predestination "proof-texts" so often used to support the belief that people are predestined to salvation or not. Note that in Eph 1:9, he writes:

"He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He (AA)purposed in Him"

Paul continues in Ep 3:4-5 to qualify this "mystery" by writing:

"By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit"

I suspect that you may see where I am going - the mystery in chapter 1 is the same mystery as in chapter 3 and the fact that chapter 3 clearly identifies who that mystery has been revealed to legitimizes a claim that it is this same set of persons who are being described as "predestined" in chapter 1. To the extent that material in Ephesians justifies the claim that those who are thus mysteriously pre-destined are a special subset of people, the general applicability of the predestination text in chapter 1 is undercut.

Eph 2:20 solidifies Paul's treatment of the apostles as a distinct group - and I claim, and will argue in later posts, that this distinction will support the argument that the pre-destination verses in chapter 1 are really about this particular group and not about people in general. Of course, this is simply asserted for the present and will be supported in later posts.

"having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone"

So that's more or less it for this post. In the next post, I hope to defend the claim that things said about the "us" and the "we" in Ephesians 1 can only describe a specific subset of people - the apostles and prophets described in verses 2 and 3.

I hope that I have at least established the plausibility of the claim that those who are bound up in the mystery in chapter 3 are a specific group of NT prophets and saints, and that this mystery is the very same predestination mystery as described in chapter 1.

I will add the following general statement: when we come books like Ephesians and Romans with an a priori assumption that they are general treatises on systematic theology, we can get in trouble. We can all too easily forget the historical context and falsely think that certain chunks of texts have universal applicability. A classic place where this mistake is made is the "potter" text in Romans 9. I submit that a knowledge of the historical context in which Paul wrote this letter, supplemented by a knowledge of the covenant history of Israel leads to the conclusion that Paul is referring (in the potter text in Romans 9) to God's predestination of national Israel to be "cast away for the sins of the world". Thankfully for us all, Jesus bore this terrible destiny in Israel's (and our) stead.

 

[Drew]

This is a follow-on to my previous post and ideally one should read the first post before reading this one.

I am attempting to argue that the famous pre-destination text of Ephesians 1 really only describes a specific set of persons and should not be taken as support for the "people are elected unto salvation" position. Admittedly, I am piggybacking on someone else's argument. The basic idea is that material in Eph 3 qualifies the Eph 1 material - the specific subset of people to whom a mystery has been revealed as per chapter 3 is the same set of people who are predestined as per chapter 1. So the material in chapter 3 identifies the "who is predestined" of the predestination material in chapter 1 and makes it rather clear that Paul is not talking predestination in respect to persons in general, but rather to a specific group - the New Testament prophets and apostles who founded the Christian church (e.g. see Eph 2:20).

However, and this is important, having already argued in my previous post that Eph 3:5 identifies the subset of people that are actually pre-destined is not people in general, it is not simply material in chapter 3 that does this - chapter 1 also direcrtly supports this view that a very specific set of persons has been "predestined".

In the remainder of this particular post, I will provide arguments as to why "those predestined" in chapter 1 cannot be people in general:

1. Consider Eph 1:3

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ."

Note the use of the past tense. The "us" that have been blessed have already been blessed. But, also note that the same "us" are described as having been predestined in the very next 2 verses:

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will"

So the use of the past tense in v3 takes the force from any claim that the material in verses 4 and 5 is describing people in Paul's future (i.e. us). Now, to be fair, this does not rule out the possibility that what is true of the "us" (that they have been pre-destined) that have indeed been pre-destined is also true of people in general. But, that is a separate point that needs to be seperately established.

2. In verse 3, the "us" been given "every spiritual blessing". This same "us" appears also the be subject of verse 8:

"that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding"

In order for the standard Calvinist take on this to work, the "us" being described in verses 3 and verse 8 needs to describe all mankind - since the Calvinist argument is that predestination is general to all mankind and the predestination verses appear in the verse 3 to verse 8 block. If the "us" who are predestined involves humans in general then this same "us" has been given "every spiritual blessing" and "wisdom and understanding". Now this seems implausible given what we know about the world.

But we need not appeal to the "evidence of life" to undercut the standard Calvinist take, we can appeal to the text itself. In verses 17 and 18, Paul prays as follows:

"I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spiritof wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints"

It seems that Paul actually does not believe his audience is part of the "us" that have been given "every spiritual blessing" and "wisdom and knowledge". Why would he make the above prayer if that is what he believed - why pray for something that these people already have? This is strong evidence that his audience is "on the outside" of the "us" who have these particular blessings and therefore this audience must be outside of the scope of the predestination texts. If these readers are included in the predestined us, why would we think that we are?

More later.

 

[stranger]

deleted post

 

[stranger]

Drew wrote:

I am attempting to argue that the famous pre-destination text of Ephesians 1 really only describes a specific set of persons and should not be taken as support for the "people are elected unto salvation" position. . .

The basic idea is that material in Eph 3 qualifies the Eph 1 material - the specific subset of people to whom a mystery has been revealed as per chapter 3 is the same set of people who are predestined as per chapter 1.

The subset referring to 'apostles and prophets' is part of the 'full number that are in Christ'. We know this full number consists of Jews and Gentiles.

So the material in chapter 3 identifies the "who is predestined" of the predestination material in chapter 1 and makes it rather clear that Paul is not talking predestination in respect to persons in general, but rather to a specific group - the New Testament prophets and apostles who founded the Christian church (e.g. see Eph 2:20).

There is no implication of persons in general in the expression 'in Christ'. Those 'in Christ' are a particular group to whom belong all the blessings and promises of God in general. That out of this group God called some to be 'Apostles and some prophets' is understood. We are not compelled to think that God only predestines Apostles and prophets while other are not predestined for all are in Christ and in this respect there is neither apostle not prophet, slave nor free, male nor female Jew or Greek but all are equal in Christ. Excuse the extension of equality expression!

However, and this is important, having already argued in my previous post that Eph 3:5 identifies the subset of people that are actually pre-destined is not people in general, it is not simply material in chapter 3 that does this - chapter 1 also direcrtly supports this view that a very specific set of persons has been "predestined".

In the remainder of this particular post, I will provide arguments as to why "those predestined" in chapter 1 cannot be people in general:

By people in general you probably mean 'all Christians'. Is this correct?

1. Consider Eph 1:3

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ."

Note the use of the past tense. The "us" that have been blessed have already been blessed. But, also note that the same "us" are described as having been predestined in the very next 2 verses:

Those predestined have already been blessed before the foundation of the world in Christ. But the blessing remains in Christ after creation as well. If you worry about the time aspect - the death and resurrection of Christ was already a past historical event for the Ephesians.

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will"

So the use of the past tense in v3 takes the force from any claim that the material in verses 4 and 5 is describing people in Paul's future (i.e. us). Now, to be fair, this does not rule out the possibility that what is true of the "us" (that they have been pre-destined) that have indeed been pre-destined is also true of people in general. But, that is a separate point that needs to be seperately established.

Paul had a conscious knowlegde that there was a full number of Gentiles that would beleive the gospel - he would have known the the full number in the church had not as yet come in. But i think he was also conscious that they too we part of those presdestined in Christ. But to keep on track - let us focus upon the intial parameters the church at Ephesus and the apostles and prophets.

2. In verse 3, the "us" been given "every spiritual blessing". This same "us" appears also the be subject of verse 8:

"that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding"

In order for the standard Calvinist take on this to work, the "us" being described in verses 3 and verse 8 needs to describe all mankind - since the Calvinist argument is that predestination is general to all mankind and the predestination verses appear in the verse 3 to verse 8 block. If the "us" who are predestined involves humans in general then this same "us" has been given "every spiritual blessing" and "wisdom and understanding". Now this seems implausible given what we know about the world.

The Calvinist fall into two camps - that God predestines some to eternal life while he passes others by. The other camp believe in double predestination and that refers to both those in Adam and those in Christ.

The 'us' who have been given every spiritual blessing are those 'in Christ'.

But we need not appeal to the "evidence of life" to undercut the standard Calvinist take, we can appeal to the text itself. In verses 17 and 18, Paul prays as follows:

"I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spiritof wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints"

It seems that Paul actually does not believe his audience is part of the "us" that have been given "every spiritual blessing" and "wisdom and knowledge". Why would he make the above prayer if that is what he believed - why pray for something that these people already have? This is strong evidence that his audience is "on the outside" of the "us" who have these particular blessings and therefore this audience must be outside of the scope of the predestination texts. If these readers are included in the predestined us, why would we think that we are?

I would say that Paul not only believes his audience is part of the 'us' because his letter is addressed to the Ephesians - but he has a confidence in that particular church because he established it and worked and lived among them. He also knew the Gospel that he preached as opposed to what gospel some other apostles preached.

The reason that he prayed for that which he already knew was theirs:
1. The they would have the blessing in greater abundance. Paul was not into an improverished Christian life but one that approapriated the benefits of the Gospel to the fullest possible extent.
2. In obedience to God.
3. While I have no that Paul believed and knew it is more of a issue as to whether the Ephesians knew.ie the extent of the revelation given to the apostles and prophets.

 

[Drew]

So the material in chapter 3 identifies the "who is predestined" of the predestination material in chapter 1 and makes it rather clear that Paul is not talking predestination in respect to persons in general, but rather to a specific group - the New Testament prophets and apostles who founded the Christian church (e.g. see Eph 2:20).

There is no implication of persons in general in the expression 'in Christ'. Those 'in Christ' are a particular group to whom belong all the blessings and promises of God in general. That out of this group God called some to be 'Apostles and some prophets' is understood. We are not compelled to think that God only predestines Apostles and prophets while other are not predestined for all are in Christ and in this respect there is neither apostle not prophet, slave nor free, male nor female Jew or Greek but all are equal in Christ. Excuse the extension of equality expression!

The fact that all are indeed equal in Christ (as you say) is not grounds to assume that all "got there in exactly the same way". This seems to be your argument. I still think the original argument is sound (although I am not done yet!) - there is no justification for concluding anything beyond what is said - the prophets and apostles were predestined.

 

[workerforthechurch]

There are two kinds of predestination. One is wrong, one is right.

The first kind is the wrong kind. It says in calvinism that the person is totally deprave from the fall and can't choose, so that God predestinates by saving some and not others without regard first for their choice, like robots.

The other kind of predestination (Biblical) is God predestinates by foreknowing (Rom. 8.29) our free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints.