Predestination and Election

[unred typo]

quote by aLoneVoice :

God is not bound by time - to God, the past exists. He operates outside of time.

You actually believe that ‘the past’ is going on right now? So Jesus is still on the cross out there in ‘the past’ somewhere? Why did he say, “It is finished?†Nothing is finished for God according to your paradigm.

quote by aLoneVoice :

God knowing Jeremiah was not about knowing his DNA, or reading his "genes". God KNEW Him before he was born, before he was formed, before he even existed.

That would be one way to look it at. An asinine way, but whatever floats your boat. It certainly is a popular way. Most people accept that without thinking about it. Cool. Go with that. It’s easier. He knew Jeremiah before he existed. It even sounds cool. Like “Before I had a father, I had a son.†Can’t argue with that reasoning. In fact, I’m getting to where I don’t even want to try.

quote by aLoneVoice :
God does not change - He is the same today, yeterday, and tomorrow. His plans do not change.

His plans do change. He tells us that if we repent, he won’t send us to hell, but will receive us into everlasting habitations. That’s a pretty radical change. He was planning to send me to hell and then, I repented and now he plans instead to bring me to heaven. What doesn’t change is his promise that if the sinner repents and turns from his sin, he will turn away from the judgment that he thought to do to him.

quote by aLoneVoice :
He is omniscience and omnipotent.

Amen.

 

[Heidi]

quote by aLoneVoice :

God is not bound by time - to God, the past exists. He operates outside of time.

You actually believe that ‘the past’ is going on right now? So Jesus is still on the cross out there in ‘the past’ somewhere? Why did he say, “It is finished?†Nothing is finished for God according to your paradigm.

[quote:2926c]quote by aLoneVoice :

God knowing Jeremiah was not about knowing his DNA, or reading his "genes". God KNEW Him before he was born, before he was formed, before he even existed.

That would be one way to look it at. An asinine way, but whatever floats your boat. It certainly is a popular way. Most people accept that without thinking about it. Cool. Go with that. It’s easier. He knew Jeremiah before he existed. It even sounds cool. Like “Before I had a father, I had a son.†Can’t argue with that reasoning. In fact, I’m getting to where I don’t even want to try.

quote by aLoneVoice :
God does not change - He is the same today, yeterday, and tomorrow. His plans do not change.

His plans do change. He tells us that if we repent, he won’t send us to hell, but will receive us into everlasting habitations. That’s a pretty radical change. He was planning to send me to hell and then, I repented and now he plans instead to bring me to heaven. What doesn’t change is his promise that if the sinner repents and turns from his sin, he will turn away from the judgment that he thought to do to him.

quote by aLoneVoice :
He is omniscience and omnipotent.

Amen.[/quote:2926c]

No, God's plans do not change, any more than the truth can change or it wouldn't be the truth. ;-) God tells the people he will change his plans if they change their ways. But God didn't allow them to change their ways. The key is that the Jews didn't know he didn't allow them to. So they were without excuse.

If God had sent them His Spirit earlier, they would have changed their ways. But he didn't and here's why; because God's plan was to bring the Gentiles to salvation which couldn't be done if the Jews had obeyed him. And that's why the OT prophecies all point to the messiah. This is confirmed by Genesis 9:27, "May God extend the territory Japheth; (the Gentiles)may Japheth live in the tents of Shem."

It is also confirmed by Romans 11:30-32, "Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

So the disobedience of the Jews wasn't an accident that God had to remedy, it was his beautiful plan to bring all people to a knowledge of their salvation.

Romans 3:11, "There is no one righteous, not even one. There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." So no one can seek God by his own power any more than the Jews could. ;-)

 

[unred typo]

quote by Heidi:
No, God's plans do not change, any more than the truth can change or it wouldn't be the truth.

The past can’t change. Once something happens, it is like the truth, it can’t have happened any other way. The present changes every moment. One moment I could say truthfully, “I have never eaten caviar.†In two minutes I could pop some in my mouth and suddenly the truth from a minute ago no longer is true.

quote by Heidi:
God tells the people he will change his plans if they change their ways. But God didn't allow them to change their ways. The key is that the Jews didn't know he didn't allow them to. So they were without excuse.

Where do you come up with this stuff, Heidi? You could fry the points off Spock’s ears. That is totally illogical. That makes as much sense as saying you told your dog to get out of your flower bed but it was you who had chained him in there but he didn't know you had him chained so he had no excuse and then you could punish him. :crazyeyes:

 

[Guest]

quote by Heidi:
No, God's plans do not change, any more than the truth can change or it wouldn't be the truth.

The past can’t change. Once something happens, it is like the truth, it can’t have happened any other way. The present changes every moment. One moment I could say truthfully, “I have never eaten caviar.†In two minutes I could pop some in my mouth and suddenly the truth from a minute ago no longer is true.

[quote:ce637] quote by Heidi:
God tells the people he will change his plans if they change their ways. But God didn't allow them to change their ways. The key is that the Jews didn't know he didn't allow them to. So they were without excuse.

Where do you come up with this stuff, Heidi? You could fry the points off Spock’s ears. That is totally illogical. That makes as much sense as saying you told your dog to get out of your flower bed but it was you who had chained him in there but he didn't know you had him chained so he had no excuse and then you could punish him. :crazyeyes:[/quote:ce637]

Why are you beholden to Logic?

Is the hypostatic union logical?

 

[Drew]

No, God's plans do not change, any more than the truth can change or it wouldn't be the truth. ;-) God tells the people he will change his plans if they change their ways. But God didn't allow them to change their ways. The key is that the Jews didn't know he didn't allow them to. So they were without excuse.

I do not think so. If person A is being fully controlled by God and essentially forced to do "X" then the responsibilty, for good or for bad, for the occurrence of X lies with God and not the person. Let's say that some alien has taken control of my mind and forces to do something crazy, such as paying good money to see a rap concert. Let's say that I am not aware that this alien has interfered with my mind. The fact that I do not know this does not change the fact that it is the alien, and not me, that is responsible for this morally egregious act.

And now, drum roll please....a point where Heidi and I actually agree:

because God's plan was to bring the Gentiles to salvation which couldn't be done if the Jews had obeyed him.....

It is also confirmed by Romans 11:30-32, "Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

So the disobedience of the Jews wasn't an accident that God had to remedy, it was his beautiful plan to bring all people to a knowledge of their salvation.

I do think that the above statements are essentially scriptural. God does indeed use the Law to cause "sin to abound" in Israel. It is only in retrospect that we can see how this achieved God's high purpose of extending covenant membership to all.

Do readers think I have contradicted myself is in respect to my disagreement with Heidi in respect to her first quote? I think I am prepared to respond to this if someone raises it.

I wonder if unred will disagree with my take that God, through sending the Law, essentially "forces" Israel to be a "sponge" for the world's sin.

By the way, unred, I still owe you some responses to your texts that suggest the world will be destroyed.

 

[Guest]

Acts 2:23

Whose plan was it?

Who was responsible for it?

----------------------------------------

Drew - what do you act like you are superior in knowledge?. To be honest with you, it is very unbecoming.

 

[Drew]

Drew - what do you act like you are superior in knowledge?. To be honest with you, it is very unbecoming.

Please back up this accusation. When have I said that I am superior in knowledge? I think you are reading things into my posts that are just not there.

 

[unred typo]

quote by aLoneVoice on Wed Oct 10, 2007

Why are you beholden to Logic?

Is the hypostatic union logical?

God is not foolish. He is perfect in wisdom. He is the embodiment of all truth. Logic that is correct is true. True logic is God-given. Proverbs says that foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child. In fact, the books of proverbs and psalms have quite a lot to say about fools and the foolishness of not believing and obeying God.

Some people seem to think that if something makes no sense they can still believe it because of the verse that says the things of God are foolishness to the natural man. This is a misunderstanding of the verse. There is logic that is faulty such as the logic that the ‘natural man’ uses when he kills another person because he wants their money and has determined that he is more important than anyone else. To this person, God’s wisdom is foolishness because he is god of his own life. True logic is to believe that God’s ways are best because he can be trusted to do what he has promised. In unbelief, the natural man thinks this life is all there is and he would be wise to get all he can while he lives.

The hypostatic union is logical in the same way the body, soul and spirit are one being. The difference between the nature of a person and the nature of God is that we cannot send our spirit out to other places to do our will, or place our soul in the body of another being, or take our word and make it flesh. There are things that are not possible to a human that God does every day. If these facts are true of God, then it is logical to assume that he has a mystical nature than is somewhat like the image of man, yet with powers not given to us.

 

[unred typo]

quote by aLoneVoice:

Drew - what do you act like you are superior in knowledge?. To be honest with you, it is very unbecoming.

Drew does not act like he is superior in knowledge. He is superior in knowledge. In spite of this, he is really amazingly humble. He doesn’t talk down to people like some people do when they assume they are right. Heidi is so illogical and blatantly ignorant of the other person’s reasoning, or her own contradictions in thinking, it is hard to even respectfully answer her at times.

What you see as an air of superiority is the fact that Drew is assertive in his defense of his ideas and beliefs. If you are confident that what you believe is right, some times that can be misunderstood as pride. The interesting thing here is that if you can show Drew where he is wrong in his opinion, he will readily admit it and be willing to adjust his thinking, while I have never seen you do that. I guess that’s because you are always right and don’t have to. :wink:

 

[unred typo]

quote by Drew:

I do think that the above statements are essentially scriptural. God does indeed use the Law to cause "sin to abound" in Israel. It is only in retrospect that we can see how this achieved God's high purpose of extending covenant membership to all.

Do readers think I have contradicted myself is in respect to my disagreement with Heidi in respect to her first quote? I think I am prepared to respond to this if someone raises it.

I wonder if unred will disagree with my take that God, through sending the Law, essentially "forces" Israel to be a "sponge" for the world's sin.

By the way, unred, I still owe you some responses to your texts that suggest the world will be destroyed.

I’m not sure I comprehend the whole concept you have presented, but maybe that’s because it is not the ‘usual’ wording or just me, being obtuse. I agree that God through sending the law, makes Israel accountable for sin that the rest of the world is not held responsible for to the same degree. I think it is not so much that I don’t agree but that I am looking at it from another angle. I see that Jesus takes the law to a higher plane where love is the principle factor in determining the sinfulness of any act, and not merely the fact of breaking the law itself. In that way, all the world was made guilty of the act of sinning, because all people have broken the golden rule and not always treated others as they would want to be treated. It seems to me that this is how the entire world was placed under sin, that he might have mercy upon all. I’m still not sure how the two concepts fit together, or maybe they don’t. I’m still mulling it over. Don’t wait up for me… :wink:

No hurry on the other texts, either. I think they should go to another thread anyway.

 

[Guest]

Drew - what do you act like you are superior in knowledge?. To be honest with you, it is very unbecoming.

Please back up this accusation. When have I said that I am superior in knowledge? I think you are reading things into my posts that are just not there.

It was this quote that I was referring to:

Do readers think I have contradicted myself is in respect to my disagreement with Heidi in respect to her first quote? I think I am prepared to respond to this if someone raises it.{/quote]

I believe there is a huge difference between knowledge and wisdom. We are to seek Wisdom, not knowledge.

 

[MarkT]

Sounds good Mark, but I wonder, what is Joshua suggesting here?

Josh 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

It sounds like he made a choice to serve the LORD. He even uses the word choose in this verse.

First of all, freewill isn't a teaching. Everyone thinks it's about their will. You're right about it being a suggestion. But it's not a teaching. There are many things in the Bible that suggest things to people. For example, God must be a monster because he orders the Israelites to destroy all the peoples he gives over to them; 'your eye shall not pity them.' Dueteronomy 7:16 But it depends on who you are. One thing might suggest something to one person and not to another. It depends on your spirit. Joshua had the spirit to wholly follow the LORD. In other words he was called from the womb to be the leader he became. He told the people to choose the LORD, the God of their father Abraham because they had a choice; the gods of the surrounding tribes or the God that led them out of Egypt. It's a simple statement. It's like saying, 'read the Bible.' One hearer will say, 'why not the Koran?' Another will say, 'It's just a book' Another will say, 'We don't want your religion.' It depends on the spirit of the man hearing the words. One man reads and another one doesn't. One man who reads, sees and one man who reads, doesn't. One man sees more and so God gives him more. It all depends on the spirit God has given us.

 

[Heidi]

No, God's plans do not change, any more than the truth can change or it wouldn't be the truth. ;-) God tells the people he will change his plans if they change their ways. But God didn't allow them to change their ways. The key is that the Jews didn't know he didn't allow them to. So they were without excuse.

I do not think so. If person A is being fully controlled by God and essentially forced to do "X" then the responsibilty, for good or for bad, for the occurrence of X lies with God and not the person. Let's say that some alien has taken control of my mind and forces to do something crazy, such as paying good money to see a rap concert. Let's say that I am not aware that this alien has interfered with my mind. The fact that I do not know this does not change the fact that it is the alien, and not me, that is responsible for this morally egregious act.

And now, drum roll please....a point where Heidi and I actually agree:

because God's plan was to bring the Gentiles to salvation which couldn't be done if the Jews had obeyed him.....

It is also confirmed by Romans 11:30-32, "Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

So the disobedience of the Jews wasn't an accident that God had to remedy, it was his beautiful plan to bring all people to a knowledge of their salvation.

I do think that the above statements are essentially scriptural. God does indeed use the Law to cause "sin to abound" in Israel. It is only in retrospect that we can see how this achieved God's high purpose of extending covenant membership to all.

Do readers think I have contradicted myself is in respect to my disagreement with Heidi in respect to her first quote? I think I am prepared to respond to this if someone raises it.

I wonder if unred will disagree with my take that God, through sending the Law, essentially "forces" Israel to be a "sponge" for the world's sin.

By the way, unred, I still owe you some responses to your texts that suggest the world will be destroyed.

Not scriptural? :o They're quotes from scripture! :

So all people have to do is believe every verse in the bible and they will see that nothing happens by accident or merely foreknowledge. They are plans and decrees by God.

Lamentations 2;17, "The Lord has done what he planned; he has fulfilled his words, which he decreed long ago." Notice that the verse doesn't say that humans have fulfilled God's plan, but the Lord has done what he planned. It also shows that God planned this long before it happened.

So since we gentiles were chosen before the creation of the world, then how do you suppose we could receive salvation if the Jews had obeyed God? God isn't "winging it" here. He doesn't stop in mid-course and say; "Now what am I going to do?" : He planned and designed His creation to go according to His purpose & foreknowledge. Romans 8:20, "For the creation was subject to frustration not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it."

 

[Drew]

Not scriptural? :o They're quotes from scripture! :

Heidi, you misread my post. I clearly stated that they are scriptural. You are probably so used to my taking issue with you that you simply cannot take it in when I agree..... :D

I do think that the above statements are essentially scriptural

 

[Vic C.]

Lamentations 2;17, "The Lord has done what he planned; he has fulfilled his words, which he decreed long ago." Notice that the verse doesn't say that humans have fulfilled God's plan, but the Lord has done what he planned. It also shows that God planned this long before it happened.

I'm confused. How do we take a verse (a partial verse no less) and apply it to this doctrine? Do we just throw away the context of the passage and the message of the Prophet?

Lam 2:17 The LORD hath done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old: he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee, he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries.

Hath is past tense. "he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee"... this has already happened. The plan and decree talked about here is the Fall and destruction of Jerusalem and the wrath that was to come down on them by their adversaries, just as God had decreed and warned through HIS Prophets.