Predestination in light of 1 Corinthians 9:16

[Hidden In Him]

Ok, Iconoclast . I'm creating a thread to discuss scripture with you, as per your request.

Since you appear to be a staunch Calvinist, I have a question for you: What did Paul mean specifically by declaring, "Woe be unto me if I do not preach the gospel"? (οὐαὶ γάρ μοί ἐστιν ἐὰν μὴ εὐαγγελίσωμαι.)

Paul also stated in Galatians, "But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not rush to consult with flesh and blood." (Galatians 1:15-16).

This coincides with statements he made elsewhere, such as in Romans 8, where he said, "For those whom God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:28).

If Paul was chosen for salvation from his mother's womb, what specifically was he saying would have happened to him if he had not preached the gospel?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What is difficult for others to see, is that God calling does not mean the man cannot but say "yes." That a man can refuse to answer the call of God is not a possibility in the eyes of Calvinists. The question must be answered, can a man disobey the call of God? In I Kings 13 we have a prophet of God sent to do a mission, told not to eat, who was lied to by another prophet, eat and was later killed. What happened? He disobeyed. And the other "prophet" lied. Are they in the will of God? Clearly not. Did they have free will to choose to disobey? Of course.

Then there is the prophet Samson who was chosen from birth but did not end up well. It is possible to be chosen for a task by God and miss it. God sovereignly grants us free will to choose our course. This is the best fit for understanding the scriptures and real life. It explains how God's plans for some do not happen as God desires.

 

[Robert Pate]

What is difficult for others to see, is that God calling does not mean the man cannot but say "yes." That a man can refuse to answer the call of God is not a possibility in the eyes of Calvinists. The question must be answered, can a man disobey the call of God? In I Kings 13 we have a prophet of God sent to do a mission, told not to eat, who was lied to by another prophet, eat and was later killed. What happened? He disobeyed. And the other "prophet" lied. Are they in the will of God? Clearly not. Did they have free will to choose to disobey? Of course.

Then there is the prophet Samson who was chosen from birth but did not end up well. It is possible to be chosen for a task by God and miss it. God sovereignly grants us free will to choose our course. This is the best fit for understanding the scriptures and real life. It explains how God's plans for some do not happen as God desires.

God chose prophets, patriarchs, apostles. Could any of them refused the call? Of course they could. God did not create a bunch of mindless dumb robots. What kind of glory would that bring him? Jonah was called to go preach to the people of Nineveh. He resisted the call, not a good idea.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God chose prophets, patriarchs, apostles. Could any of them refused the call? Of course they could. God did not create a bunch of mindless dumb robots. What kind of glory would that bring him? Jonah was called to go preach to the people of Nineveh. He resisted the call, not a good idea.

Not for the Calvinists.

 

[Robert Pate]

Not for the Calvinists.

Calvinists are on the wrong bus, going in the wrong direction.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Calvinists are on the wrong bus, going in the wrong direction.

Inviting others to hop aboard

 

[Iconoclast]

Ok, Iconoclast . I'm creating a thread to discuss scripture with you, as per your request.

Since you appear to be a staunch Calvinist, I have a question for you: What did Paul mean specifically by declaring, "Woe be unto me if I do not preach the gospel"? (οὐαὶ γάρ μοί ἐστιν ἐὰν μὴ εὐαγγελίσωμαι.)

Paul also stated in Galatians, "But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not rush to consult with flesh and blood." (Galatians 1:15-16).

This coincides with statements he made elsewhere, such as in Romans 8, where he said, "For those whom God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:28).

If Paul was chosen for salvation from his mother's womb, what specifically was he saying would have happened to him if he had not preached the gospel?

Hello HIH,
Thank you for this fine thread and important topic. I will try and answer whatever you have and remove obstacles that maintain a difference in our understandings, fair enough?

Who said anything about not preaching the gospel? Of course he preached the gospel and a quick glance at romans 10:9-17 shows why. I am not understanding your question? What is your concern here?

 

[Iconoclast]

What is difficult for others to see, is that God calling does not mean the man cannot but say "yes." That a man can refuse to answer the call of God is not a possibility in the eyes of Calvinists.

Strawman...all men oppose God, until God deals with them. rom8;7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Men are born refusing God.

The question must be answered, can a man disobey the call of God?

Men resist the general call of God, all the time. No one resists the effectual call as Jesus explained in jn6:
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. This is clear, all that are given shall come. No one given this call fails to come. A small child can read and understand this verse.
Anyone here, whosoever will can try and refute this statement

In I Kings 13 we have a prophet of God sent to do a mission, told not to eat, who was lied to by another prophet, eat and was later killed. What happened? He disobeyed. And the other "prophet" lied. Are they in the will of God? Clearly not. Did they have free will to choose to disobey? Of course.

speculation

Then there is the prophet Samson who was chosen from birth but did not end up well. It is possible to be chosen for a task by God and miss it.

Do you mean like Jonah? Did he use his Non existent free will to dive into the great fish?

God sovereignly grants us free will to choose our course.

We have self will that is bound by sin.....we make choices according to our nature, which is sinful.

This is the best fit for understanding the scriptures and real life. It explains how God's plans for some do not happen as God desires.

God's plans always come to pass, despite mans sin and rebellion

 

[Iconoclast]

God chose prophets, patriarchs, apostles. Could any of them refused the call? Of course they could.

Sinners refused God all through scripture. No one says they have not.

God did not create a bunch of mindless dumb robots.

Foolish idea of course. eccl7:29

What kind of glory would that bring him? Jonah was called to go preach to the people of Nineveh. He resisted the call, not a good idea.

Not a good idea at all, but God over ruled the resistance did'nt he?

 

[Iconoclast]

Not for the Calvinists.

This is not so, but you can post what you want.

 

[Robert Pate]

Sinners refused God all through scripture. No one says they have not.

Foolish idea of course. eccl7:29

Not a good idea at all, but God over ruled the resistance did'nt he?

Jonah had a free will, didn't he?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Who said anything about not preaching the gospel? Of course he preached the gospel and a quick glance at romans 10:9-17 shows why. I am not understanding your question?

The question again:

What did Paul mean specifically by declaring, "Woe be unto me if I do not preach the gospel"? (οὐαὶ γάρ μοί ἐστιν ἐὰν μὴ εὐαγγελίσωμαι.) If he was chosen for salvation from his mother's womb, what specifically was he saying would have happened to him if he had not preached the gospel?

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvinists are on the wrong bus, going in the wrong direction.

Easy to make unfounded posts like this. You cannot support any scritural case however... Try and do that here, and we will see what is what!

 

[Iconoclast]

Jonah had a free will, didn't he?

sinful self will, until God taught him by way of the fish

 

[Iconoclast]

The question again:

What did Paul mean specifically by declaring, "Woe be unto me if I do not preach the gospel"? (οὐαὶ γάρ μοί ἐστιν ἐὰν μὴ εὐαγγελίσωμαι.) If he was chosen for salvation from his mother's womb, what specifically was he saying would have happened to him if he had not preached the gospel?

Hello HIH,
I do not take it to be any degree of speculation on his part. he would be well aware of previous teaching such as the watchmen don't you think? Ezk33:
33 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:

3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;

4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.

6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
Does this help HIH?

 

[Hidden In Him]

4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

Then you believe he would have lost his salvation? I'm asking because a typical Calvinist would take the position Paul could never lose his salvation under any circumstances, having been predestined from the womb.

 

[Iconoclast]

Then you believe he would have lost his salvation? I'm asking because a typical Calvinist would take the position Paul could never lose his salvation under any circumstances, having been predestined from the womb.

HIH, As a Calvinist I understand election to be a Covenant transaction between the Father, Son, and Spirit , which is known theologically as the Covenant of Redemption.
Paul or any other Christian, ie, [an actual ,real Spirit indwelt Christian} cannot lose what God has sealed until the day of redemption. I had started a thread on this topic, which no non cal has attempted to interact on.
HIH let me make this clear Jn 10:26-30 means exactly what it means.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Paul or any other Christian, ie, [an actual ,real Spirit indwelt Christian} cannot lose what God has sealed until the day of redemption. I had started a thread on this topic, which no non cal has attempted to interact on.
HIH let me make this clear Jn 10:26-30 means exactly what it means.

I assumed this going in, Iconoclast, but thanks for the clarification.

You haven't yet answered specifically what would happen to the apostle Paul if he had elected not to preach the gospel, and maybe you can later, but moving on, the next question is this:

If Paul was not referring to potentially losing his salvation, where else in scripture is the expression "οὐαὶ γάρ μοί ἐστιν" or its equivalent supposedly used in reference to the saved?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I assumed this going in, Iconoclast, but thanks for the clarification.

You haven't yet answered specifically what would happen to the apostle Paul if he had elected not to preach the gospel, and maybe you can later, but moving on, the next question is this:

If Paul was not referring to potentially losing his salvation, where else in scripture is the expression "οὐαὶ γάρ μοί ἐστιν" or its equivalent supposedly used in reference to the saved?

If you read the writings of Paul, his own salvation was not on his heart quite early. He longed to know Christ, and the fellowship of his sufferings and the power of the resurrection.

 

[Iconoclast]

I assumed this going in, Iconoclast, but thanks for the clarification.

I am enjoying our civil conversation so I will attempt to clarify even further.

You haven't yet answered specifically what would happen to the apostle Paul if he had elected not to preach the gospel, and maybe you can later,

I have believed these things for many years, and I have learned over time not to speculate outside of scripture.
I have spent much time listening to sermons on such topics.
Election, Predestination, Decree, Foreknowledge Covenants.
As a driver I have had countless hours going coast to coast, to listen to many sermons, 5-8 a day.
I post links that I know can be helpful. Even if a person does not agree, my job is to be faithful.
What I mean is Knowing our God has revealed all that we need for life and Godliness I seek all my answers primarily from the scripture. I am only one person with a narrow understanding of the world limited by a sinful past, and a working in and among the world of the ungodly. It has some effect on us all as is spoken of Lot.
2pet:
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) The word vexed has the idea of being worn down.

but moving on, the next question is this:

If Paul was not referring to potentially losing his salvation, where else in scripture is the expression "οὐαὶ γάρ μοί ἐστιν" or its equivalent supposedly used in reference to the saved?

I am not a language major as another posted recently said...but I think it is an expression being used to convey an over all idea that being; I of all people would be without any excuse or reason not to do what Jesus has instructed me to do. Woe unto me...in the sense that I could or would be judged for such sinful conduct as to turn away from the Great Commision.