woe. God's severest chastening is reserved for unfaithful ministers (Heb_13:17; Jas_3:1).
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Predestination in light of 1 Corinthians 9:16
- Thread starter Hidden In Him
- Start date
woe. God's severest chastening is reserved for unfaithful ministers (Heb_13:17; Jas_3:1).
Okay, you are interpreting it to mean he would have been simply vexed in spirit, but this is not how the word appears to have been used elsewhere in scripture.
I will give you some other examples, and you tell me.
3 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ 17 You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? 18 And you say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.’ 19 You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it. 22 And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it.
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to Hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Two questions:
1. Were the men Jesus was addressing here saved or unsaved, in your opinion?
2. Was Jesus implying that they would merely be vexed in spirit for their sins, or was He suggesting in this text that they would suffer some form of judgment from God?
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Greetings, elected.
Unfaithful ministers... Jesus spoke of unfaithful ministers in His teaching in Matthew 24. Would you say those He spoke of there were saved or unsaved?
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 47 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know 51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
No...my reference to the word vexed was used in reference to me , in the whole truck driving eviroment. Your use of the word WOE, is fine.
Yes...I was going to post these also.
The woes in Matthew were to mostly unsaved persons as they were being rejected, and perhaps reprobated on the spot. here was the rejection;
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
No... re read my post, I used the word vexed in reference to me working among the ungodly. Keep as many questions coming as you can. I think this can be a helpful thread. I will be going to a church activety for the next 3 hours or so, but ask as many questions as you can think of.
I like that you are being honest and direct. The truth delights to be investigated. I will also list several sermons ,that if time permits can be very instructive. I will stand by most 98% of what is declared on these messages.
I have to confess that even my time on the forums is more limited these days, but I will keep these links in mind should the Lord lead me to delve deeper into this discussion in the future, so thank you.
Okay, but now if you think that Paul could never lose his salvation, then you are assuming the phrase "Woe be unto me if I do not preach the gospel" clearly couldn't mean that, whatever it meant. My life of questioning is this: If he was not referring to potentially losing his salvation, what other supposed uses are there in scripture of this phrase in connection with those who are saved rather than unsaved? I will give you a few more examples:
Isaiah 33:1
Woe to you, O destroyer,
While you were not destroyed;
And he who is treacherous, while others did not deal treacherously with him.
As soon as you finish destroying, you will be destroyed;
As soon as you cease to deal treacherously, others will deal treacherously with you.
Jeremiah 48:1-2
Concerning Moab. Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel,
“Woe to Nebo, for it has been destroyed;
Kiriathaim has been put to shame, it has been captured;
The lofty stronghold has been put to shame and shattered.
“There is praise for Moab no longer;
In Heshbon they have devised calamity against her:
‘Come and let us cut her off from being a nation!’
You too, Madmen, will be silenced;
The sword will follow after you.
Nahum 3:1-7
Woe to the bloody city, completely full of lies and pillage;
Her prey never departs.
The noise of the whip,
The noise of the rattling of the wheel,
Galloping horses
And bounding chariots!
Horsemen charging,
Swords flashing, spears gleaming,
Many slain, a mass of corpses,
And countless dead bodies—
They stumble over the dead bodies!
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Yes..the woe is a serious word in scripture.
I have been in Reformed Baptists Churches for years. All of the warning passages are in scripture are preached to the members as if election was not certain for the hearers. For example;
2cor13:
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
The warning passages preached force everyone to examine if they are in right standing before God.WE know election is a biblical teaching, but we know that we are told to make are calling and election sure;
2pet1:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
Ok, but see you are combining 2 Peter 1:10 with the assumption that Calvinist predestination and OSAS are true, which if then applied to 1 Corinthians 9:16 disassembles what Paul was actually saying and reconstructs it into something more palatable to Calvinist thought.
Here is my problem with your position: You speculate that Romans 8:28-29 is about salvation when salvation is nowhere actually mentioned in the text. You do the same thing with Galatians 1:15-16. But when asked several times to give an interpretation of what Paul meant by the phrase, "Woe be unto me if I do not preach the gospel," suddenly you refuse to speculate. Why? My suspicion is that the natural conclusions you might come to would not reflect well on Calvinist theology, so suddenly you excuse yourself from speculation on the grounds it is theologically risky.
But the question is this: Did "woe be unto me if I don't preach the gospel" mean "I need to preach the gospel because I need to make my calling and election sure," or was he saying something more along the lines of "If I turn around and denounce the call of God on my life after the Lord Jesus Christ has appeared to me personally, I could be potentially destroying myself."
Luke 12 states the following:
42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
Paul was given much, and therefore a great deal was required of him spiritually and he knew it. This is why he uttered the phrase, "Woe be unto me if I do not preach the gospel." What did Jesus say would happen to His servants who did not do according to His will but failed to give His household spiritual food in their due season, as they were called to do and commanded to do? He said they would be cut asunder and appointed their portion with the unbelievers. This coincides with Matthew 24 where He said such servants would be allotted their portion with the hypocrites, where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
What is the conclusion to all this? That those given great responsibilities before God, even those called from their mother's womb, nevertheless cannot simply denounce their calling and abandon those God has asked them to minister to and spiritually protect. If they do, they can expect little more than weeping and gnashing of teeth in eternity. That they will be placed with the unbelievers means they were something else, but ended up suffering the same fate as unbelievers because they did not act responsibly towards their callings in Christ.
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Hello HIH,
I am sure this post will be answered in two or three posts
I have no doubt that the historic confessional teaching of election and predestination are clearly taught in scripture. Why would Peter suggest that we give all diligence to make our calling and election sure if there was no such doctrine of election?
Notice he does not even in the opening of his letter go into a lengthy explanation of election. He just explains how each individual is to go about making their calling and election sure
He tells them;
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
All of these things are to be present in the life of each individual believer ,and each intersects with the other like voices in a choir that build up and compliment each other.
The historic teaching is NOT OSAS!
The historic confessional teaching is called: 1689 cof
Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved,effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit,
and given the precious faith of his elect unto,
can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace,
but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved,
seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance,
whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality;
and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them,
yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will,
but upon the immutability of the decree of election,
flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father,
upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him,
the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )
3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them,
and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein,
whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )
pt2.
People who desire to resist the historic confessional teaching known as Calvinsm invented a watered down , inaccurate teaching called OSAS.
The idea being , if you profess, accept, raise a hand, walk the aisle, make a decision, sign a card, or any other physical act...they pronounce you saved and you can never be lost, even if you live unconverted, lie, steal, and even become an apostate and you will still be saved.
R.B. Theime taught false ideas such as;
He taught the Antinomian non-Lordship view of salvation and went so far as to teach that if you told someone to repent and believe the gospel that "repent" was adding to the gospel.
He taught that if a person once believed and then rejected Christ later in life that they were an "unbelieving believer" and did not need the gospel as they were already saved, etc.
Some followers of Thieme made a point of profane speech, etc. to demonstrate their freedom from legalism.
Perseverance of the saints teaches men who have the Holy Spirit continue on, they press toward the mark of the high calling as the Spirit works in us to will and do of His good pleasure.
People who desire to resist the historic confessional teaching known as Calvinsm invented a watered down , inaccurate teaching called OSAS.
The idea being , if you profess, accept, raise a hand, walk the aisle, make a decision, sign a card, or any other physical act...they pronounce you saved and you can never be lost, even if you live unconverted, lie, steal, and even become an apostate and you will still be saved.
R.B. Theime taught false ideas such as;
He taught the Antinomian non-Lordship view of salvation and went so far as to teach that if you told someone to repent and believe the gospel that "repent" was adding to the gospel.
He taught that if a person once believed and then rejected Christ later in life that they were an "unbelieving believer" and did not need the gospel as they were already saved, etc.
Some followers of Thieme made a point of profane speech, etc. to demonstrate their freedom from legalism.
Perseverance of the saints teaches men who have the Holy Spirit continue on, they press toward the mark of the high calling as the Spirit works in us to will and do of His good pleasure.
Not actually sure I see much difference between the above and what I understand to be the teachings of OSAS, but maybe you can clarify a little more for me.
As for the rest, I have writing to do and some reading to catch up on, so this may be my last post barring some unforeseen replies that necessitate a response. But maybe we can address things again in the future.
Blessings in Christ Jesus to you, and thanks for the conversation.
HiH
I do not believe there is any speculation on Romans 8, and in particular Romans 8:29-39.
Let's examine it together.
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The description here; no condemnation is only true of saved individuals.
They are said to be IN CHRIST........HIH, unsaved persons are never said to be IN CHRIST
They are said to walk after the Spirit.....unsaved do not have the Spirit
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Clearly, salvation is being discussed, The unsaved do not have The Spirit
That sets up the last half of the chapter.
vs29-30
Whom He did foreknow} The individual persons
He also did predestinate} To be conformed to the image of His Son
HIH- We should not confuse God's omniscience with biblical foreknowledge.
Omniscience is God having complete knowledge of all persons, places, and things.
He knows with complete knowledge who every person is, and what they do.
Biblical foreknowledge is different in that it speaks of God knowing the objects of his saving love with the same language used of marital intimacy.
You might work in an office filled with woman who are acquaintances, but you only "know" your wife in that special way God has designed. God knows His elect children in a saving Covenant relationship, that is not shared by the ungodly.
The texts tells us;
Them he predestinated, them he called, justified, glorified
The unsaved are not described this way at all.
Then he says nothing can separate us[the elect] from the love of God which is IN CHRIST.
I would say that speaks exactly of salvation.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Who would take this up with you?
There's no such covenant as the Covenant of Redemption.
I asked you to post an authoritative source, other than a reformed source, and you were not able to do this.
The reformed have their own Covenants, using their own wording.
They are not accepted by the rest of Christianity.
only people who study the bible :yes
Because you do not understand it, does not mean millions have not seen it clearly taught in scripture. I gave you a simple example of two sports without using the words, soccer, or baseball. Everybody knew what it was. Same with the Covenant of Redempiton.Most solid works are by the reformers and puritans. Non cal books are weak.
Frankly, very few noncals have enough biblical acumen to work through it, even though reformed believers are all over it. Ihave offered you a small sample of the teaching, you have rejected it. Check with your new friend Leighton
That is your opinion and you are welcome to share it with others who do not get it.
I see the reformed are the real Christians. Nominal Christians do not accept truth.
Some will study themselves into the truth.
Some people claim they have studied a long time several years, but are ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of truth.
I have met many such persons. Some have become good friends,
At first they opposed these truths, not they hold them as strong or stronger than i do.
I can invite some of them here if you like.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
It's OK Icon.only people who study the bible :yes
Most solid works are by the reformers and puritans. Non cal books are weak.
Frankly, very few noncals have enough biblical acumen to work through it, even though reformed believers are all over it. Ihave offered you a small sample of the teaching, you have rejected it. Check with your new friend Leighton
That is your opinion and you are welcome to share it with others who do not get it.
I see the reformed are the real Christians. Nominal Christians do not accept truth.
Some will study themselves into the truth.
Some people claim they have studied a long time several years, but are ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of truth.
I have met many such persons. Some have become good friends,
At first they opposed these truths, not they hold them as strong or stronger than i do.
I can invite some of them here if you like.
We have enough reformed here.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Could you stop making personal comments constantly?only people who study the bible :yes
Most solid works are by the reformers and puritans. Non cal books are weak.
Frankly, very few noncals have enough biblical acumen to work through it, even though reformed believers are all over it. Ihave offered you a small sample of the teaching, you have rejected it. Check with your new friend Leighton
That is your opinion and you are welcome to share it with others who do not get it.
I see the reformed are the real Christians. Nominal Christians do not accept truth.
Some will study themselves into the truth.
Some people claim they have studied a long time several years, but are ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of truth.
I have met many such persons. Some have become good friends,
At first they opposed these truths, not they hold them as strong or stronger than i do.
I can invite some of them here if you like.
Could you stop telling persons that they don't understand when they really understand but don't agree with you?
I really suggest you stop this.
Eventually, it'll catch up with you.
You're breaking TOS rules and I'm trying to be nice to you.
W...do not ask me any questions if you do not want a real answer. I have no secrets, ask me anything. If you insert yourself into the conversations and people ask about what you post, of course it is going to be somewhat about you.
i will give examples from your posts;
1]wondering said:
Who would take this up with you? It is asking me, that is personal. I do not care, you can ask me any day any post.
then this;
2]wondering said:
There's no such covenant as the Covenant of Redemption.
There is no way a person can post...I have studied reformed theology for ten years, and not seen many articles on this, much less deny it exists??? This is discussing the topic.
The topic being the Covenant of Redemption. It is not just you saying, it is taught by I do not agree with it, it is you saying it does not exist, which is not true at all. Can you see this?
It does not discuss if you know how to properly drain the eggplant and fry them, to make a proper eggplant parmigiana.[that would be personal]
3]W...you posted this;
Who would take this up with you?
There's no such covenant as the Covenant of Redemption.
I asked you to post an authoritative source, other than a reformed source, and you were not able to do this.
The word YOU is personal......I do not care ask what YOU want.
But as soon as I and others post our doubts about YOUR UNDERSTANDING... It gets personal? why is that different???
Frankly, very few noncals have enough biblical acumen to work through it, even though reformed believers are all over it. Ihave offered you a small sample of the teaching, you have rejected it. Check with your new friend Leighton
Very few non-Calvinists are capable of understanding it, Iconoclast?
I'm familiar with the Chapter. You are adding to the text. Tell me in what part of ὅτι οὓς προέγνω, καὶ προώρισεν συμμόρφους τῆς εἰκόνος τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ do you read "predestined unto salvation."