Preexistence of Christ

[RandyK]

I saw this article on another Forum.
Preexistence of Christ

The reaction of Jesus' critics to his statement-attempting to stone him (John 8:59)-confirms that they thought he was making a divine claim. Had Jesus stated only that he had been alive longer than Abraham, they might have regarded such a claim as crazy (as they apparently did with regard to his earlier comments, vv. 48-57), but not as an offense meriting stoning.

Nothing Jesus said suggests mental instability. He successfully debated, and won, his opponents. He maintained a balanced emotional attitude in all cases. He was accused of being "demonic," and perhaps only irrational in the sense he didn't fit into somebody else's theology.

It was not terribly inconsonant for Jews to view a man as appearing in the form of God. Angels did so, and theophanies took place without protest.

What provoked the Jews was what they viewed as a misapproporiation of God's personality in judging them as sinners. By commandment Israel was not to take God's name in vain, and they thought Jesus overstepped any so-called prophetic role by denouncing their corrupt religious practices.

Christ exists "before" creation is to say in effect that he has always existed-that his existence had no beginning.

Yes, if Jesus was God's Person in human form, then his origin is from everlasting, from the eternal God Himself. Jesus was not the *human* Son from eternity, but a finite projection of God's eternal word.

He came to frame who God is in the finite form of a man, who had not existed *as a man* from eternity but whose expression now is from the eternal God. As a Church Father said, he has been "generated from eternity."

God's Son is from eternity, but now assumes the form of a human Son who was obviously not always human in form. These things are easily misconstrued, but you've done a fine job of establishing the Deity of Christ.

Yes, he is the eternal Son of God, who emerged from eternity as God's Word and came to exist in the form of Jesus. He certainly did not, however, always exist as the human "Jesus!" If we don't always realize this last bit I trust we all agree that Jesus is God's eternal Son.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free and Mister E,

No, I didn't read it. It is much too long. The context of Ex. 3:14 fully supports the translation "I Am."

I was hoping that you would have read Post #1 in that thread titled "The Yahweh Name Part 1 Initial Declaration and Fulfilment", especially my reference to Exodus 6:1-8 which to me locks in both the context and the translation "i will be". It appears that to maintain my position I will need to repeat here in this thread what I said on Exodus 6:1-8 and expand and clarify this.

In my teenage years we had two youth leaders and we attended a Study Weekend in the mountains conducted by one of these, upon the subject of God Manifestation and the Yahweh Name. As usual I gained some understanding of the subject in general, but on another occasion this youth leader asked me to consider Exodus 6:1-8 and this helped me lock in the context of the Name and the meaning "I will be". I was hoping that a personal consideration of these verses would be more beneficial than my attempts at explanation, but I see the need to give a detailed explanation. That interest in the subject was awakened over 60 years ago, and I am now 81 y.o. and consider this subject as one of my favourites. This interest has been sustained over the years and I could add relevant detail of some of the help I have received from other sources and encounters coupled with my personal study. That weekend is also etched into my memory as it was the start of my four years courtship of Joyce and we have been married now for 57 years.

Exodus 3 introduces Moses at the burning bush, but Stephen recounts Moses’ thoughts 40 years earlier. It would be beneficial to read the whole section, but the following may be sufficient:
Acts 7:17,25 (KJV): 17 But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt, 25 For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.

Moses was conscious of the promise to Abraham that the children of Israel would be delivered from Egypt and brought into the Land of Promise. But now 40 years later his involvement in this process seemed to be impossible. Moses would be still conscious of the promise when the Angel of Yahweh in the bush speaking on behalf of Yahweh announced “I am the God of Abraham”.

The Angel then proceeds to reveal that Moses was to be sent to Egypt to deliver Israel out of Egypt.
Exodus 3:7–10 (KJV): 7 And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows; 8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites. 9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them. 10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.

Yahweh was to deliver Israel out of Egypt by the hand of Moses, and despite Moses’ reservations, Yahweh would be with Moses to accomplish this task.
Exodus 3:11–12 (KJV): 11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? 12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.

Please note that the phrase translated “I will be” in verse 12 is in the future tense and is identical with the same as in Exodus 3:14:
Exodus 3:14 (KJV adjusted): And God said unto Moses, I WILL BE THAT I WILL BE: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I WILL BE hath sent me unto you.

Now there are at least two Hebrew words translated by the English word “God”, and one of these “Elohim” occurs in Exodus 3:6 where the Angel says “I am the God (Elohim) of Abraham”. Abraham himself uses the other “El” in the following after God delivered Lot by the hand of Abraham and his confederates:
Genesis 14:18–22 (KJV): 18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. 19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: 20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. 21 And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself. 22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
In each of the above the word translated “God” is the Hebrew word “El.”

"I Am," on the other hand, tells us that God is self-existent and timeless. As such, he is sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient, and unchanging. This is a much stronger translation.

Could I ask, in the context of Exodus 3: What extra information does "I AM" convey to Moses which he did not already know, and what is difference or additional information to the "God" of Abraham whether it is "Elohim" or "El" or "the Most High El"?

When the initial contact that Moses had with Pharaoh did not have initial success, and the people started to complain, God answered with the following:
Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (or Yahweh) was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.

Abraham knew Elohim, and El, and even El Almighty, but here the future tense and future activity was to be God acting to deliver Israel out of Egypt, “I will be with thee”, so that Israel would become a reflection of what God's Name has accomplished.

Some commentators argue for a future tense translation, “I will be who I will be,” because the verb has an active quality about it, and the Israelites lived in the light of the promises for the future.

Yes.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free, Part 2,

Again, "I will be" is ambiguous as it doesn't tell us who God is or was. It only gives some vague notion of potentiality. .... It is a very weak translation.

I hope that what I have stated in my last Post, including the immediate context and Exodus 6:1-8 will be enough to support that the Name "I will be" is very fitting to its context and conveys God's purpose to deliver Israel out of Egypt and to bring them into the Promised Land.

We find similar language when Israel were delivered from Egypt and through the Red Sea, and again this is associated with the Yahweh Name:
Exodus 15:1–11 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. 4 Pharaoh’s chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea. 5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone. 6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy. 7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble. 8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea. 9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them. 10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters. 11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?

The phrase "Yahweh ... is become my salvation" is significant as it directly fulfills "I will be what I will be". Both phrases at first seem a bit obscure. The first says more than Yahweh has saved me or saved Israel in this case. Yahweh's Name becomes part of what has been achieved. It is His Work, His Victory. Yahweh is now known by the fact that Israel is now on the other side of the Red Sea. Yahweh and His Name has become what he chose to be, to become. He is now the particular "what" of "I will be what I will be".

So, Jesus is the Father in the flesh?

Jesus is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. In the language of Exodus 3:14 Jesus is the product of Yahweh, He is Emmanuel, God with us, Yahweh with us. All that Jesus is, is the product of Yahweh and the willing submission of His human Son. Jesus is an extension of Yahweh. When Jesus speaks, he does not say, Thus saith Yahweh, but I say unto you. He is thus The Word of God:
Deuteronomy 18:15,18 (KJV): 15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Jesus also uses the language of Exodus 3:14 and Exodus 15:
Psalm 118:14–23 (KJV): 14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation. 15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 17 I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD. 18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death.
19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: 20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD’S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
Christ is our true Passover, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

What is there in either of those passages that makes you think they are parallel?

Isaiah 6 is one of my favourite OT chapters, together with Psalm 8. I attended a home study class in my early 20's and the speaker did not mention the reference in John 12, and I briefly mentioned this, and this was my first ever comment in a class.

The vision of Isaiah 6 depicts Jesus as a King/Priest ruling in glory in the Temple, on earth not in heaven, and he is bearing the Yahweh Name. His Throne replaces the Ark of the Testimony and the static Cherubim are replaced by active Seraphim. There is interaction with Isaiah and his commissioning as a prophet. So in a sense that time aspect is difficult, but Isaiah 2 is to me future and I consider the vision of Isaiah 6 is giving more detail with Jesus sitting upon the future Temple Throne of David during the 1000 years.

Still, Isaiah explicitly states that he saw Yahweh, not a representative of Yahweh, not the Messiah. It is John who states that Isaiah saw Jesus. There is only one conclusion--John believed Jesus to be Yahweh in the flesh.

I can almost agree with your last statement "John believed Jesus to be Yahweh in the flesh", but as you can see from what I have stated we use these words and ideas partially in a different sense.

I enjoy any talk given based on Isaiah 6 and after listening to many of these and after reading various expositions, I have yet to find any of these to match my present understanding of the activity of the six wings of the Seraphim. What is your suggestion? As a clue, part of my answer links with John 12. I doubt that I would share my view as it depends on quite a number of other aspects of Isaiah 6 that we would not agree with. I have shared my view with two close brethren. One was a bit astounded as if to say, how did you arrive at that conclusion, and it was another occasion and the other brother did not comment, but quickly changed the subject.

Kind regards
Trevor