Premise: God's Highest Goal Is the Increasing Display of His Own Glory

[Hospes]

First, a working definition:

Glory is the essence of a thing that evokes esteem and praise of that same thing. (A bit awkward, but I hope it works.)​

Believing this premise has been very helpful in making other things "make sense." For instance:

1. If God's glory is his highest goal, then it would make sense for him to allow evil if it brought himself glory. Example: the greatest evil ever committed was according to God's will and ultimately brought him great glory.
   ...the Lord Jesus Christ who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (Galatians 1:4-5 ESV)
2. If God's glory is his highest goal, then it would make sense for a completely satisfied Creator to create persons in his own image to share in the growing acknowledgement of his glory. (Hearing some people, you get the impression God was lacking in fulfillment until he made creation.)
3. If God's glory is his highest goal, then I am not his highest goal, but am privileged to participate with God in the enjoyment of his own glory. (To here some Christians talk, you get the (Hearing some people, you get the impression God exists for his creation rather than his creation exists for God.)
   
   I will say to the north, Give up,
   and to the south, Do not withhold;
   bring my sons from afar
   and my daughters from the end of the earth,
   everyone who is called by my name,
   whom I created for my glory,
   whom I formed and made.” (Isaiah 43:6-7 ESV)​

Thoughts?

 

[GodsGrace]

I used to teach kids why we're here. It was rote: To know, love and serve the Lord.
Well, maybe it was rote, but it was true too. We're here, somehow, to do the work of God. It gives Him glory, I think, if another person sees this in us and thinks either how crazy we are or how nice Christians are. But, of course, in this case they'd have to KNOW you're Christian - which is why it's nice to mention God every now and then.

I hope this is understood, someone might bring up Mathew 6.1
This is different.

Right now I'm having some difficulty with item 1. I know that God can USE evil for His own good.
Genesis 50:20
Someone might use an evil intention for whatever reason, but God could use it for good. This also reminds me of Romans 8:28 God causes all things to work together for good. OR good could come out of any situation God places us in, if we look for it and can accept it - not easy to do.

But is God not big enough to be able to NOT allow evil in the first place? He needs evil to bring about His glory?

Very interesting your concept of the greatest evil being the death of Christ. It was MAN doing the evil, but he was SUPPOSED to and it DID bring about glory to God. But did it in the sense you explain glory?
Glory: "Evokes esteem and praise"

Did the Sacrifice evoke esteem and praise? Or was it just necessary??

Wondering

 

[Hospes]

Thanks, Wondering, for responding. (I expected more response from others, but oh well...!)

I used to teach kids why we're here. It was rote: To know, love and serve the Lord.
Well, maybe it was rote, but it was true too. We're here, somehow, to do the work of God. It gives Him glory, I think, if another person sees this in us and thinks either how crazy we are or how nice Christians are. But, of course, in this case they'd have to KNOW you're Christian - which is why it's nice to mention God every now and then.

I think the "know love and serve" is the necessary response of a person to seeing and accepting the glory of God in Christ. In other words, it is the result of a work by God in a person's life when He opens the person's heart to the Gospel. Have you noticed it is when you are totally consumed with love for God that serving him comes so easy and is a delight? The response of the believer's heart to seeing God's glory is a satisfied heart anxious to please Him. And in serving him, we want others to see and delight in what we see in God, so its natural we want to do good works in such a way that they see our "good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16 ESV)

Right now I'm having some difficulty with item 1. I know that God can USE evil for His own good...Someone might use an evil intention for whatever reason, but God could use it for good. But is God not big enough to be able to NOT allow evil in the first place? He needs evil to bring about His glory?

I do not think he needs evil to bring himself glory, but evil exists because he exists. Let me explain. (This gets a bit arcane, so I hope it doesn't come off sounding weird.)

God is who he is and cannot be any different. Unlike you and I who want to change our nature to conform his nature, he cannot change his nature. We have a word for his nature: good. (Note it is not the word "good" that defines his nature, but rather it is his nature that defines the word "good".) For "good" to have any useful meaning, there has to be not-good, i.e. evil. So by God being good, things that do not conform to his nature is not-God and we describe the not-God stuff as evil. He did not "create" evil, it simply exists because he exists. I sure hope I am making sense, in that I have found this to be very helpful. Please ask for more explanation if it's not clear.

Very interesting your concept of the greatest evil being the death of Christ. It was MAN doing the evil, but he was SUPPOSED to and it DID bring about glory to God. But did it in the sense you explain glory? Glory: "Evokes esteem and praise" Did the Sacrifice evoke esteem and praise? Or was it just necessary?

I would argue it was necessary to bring Him glory in the way He desired. Salvation of a person through the Gospel is all about a person seeing God's glory and delighting in it. In the following passage, I have underlined the end result of God's salvation of a person. (Grace is simply the undeserved goodness God gives us and it really is filled with the essence of God that evokes our esteem and praise of Him. Show me a person who claims to be a Christian and yet has not found delight in God's glorious grace and I will show you a person who is claiming to be something they are not.)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6 ESV)​

Hope this is helpful.

 

[smaller]

1. If God's glory is his highest goal, then it would make sense for him to allow evil if it brought himself glory. Example: the greatest evil ever committed was according to God's will and ultimately brought him great glory.
   ...the Lord Jesus Christ who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (Galatians 1:4-5 ESV)
2. 
   
   I will say to the north, Give up,
   and to the south, Do not withhold;
   bring my sons from afar
   and my daughters from the end of the earth,
   everyone who is called by my name,
   whom I created for my glory,
   whom I formed and made.” (Isaiah 43:6-7 ESV)​

Thoughts?

I might add Romans 9:17 AND for a real look at Pharaoh in the adverse/evil spiritual sense, Ezekiel 29:3 if you want to see God's Real End Game for our time in your item #1 above.

But yeah, we are here to see and participate in that. And will. Specially when we get on the same page. We don't just lift up The Word on only the good side of the ledgers. There is another side in play as well. See Romans 7:7-13 and 1 Cor. 15:56 for kickers to my first paragraph.

Gods Intentions are to SHAKE and part of that SHAKING is the empowering of the real culprit, the Pharaoh we can't see with our eyes. WHEN this does come about we will be snatched out of the maw of the DRAGON by our Thief, Jesus Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks, Wondering, for responding. (I expected more response from others, but oh well...!)
I think the "know love and serve" is the necessary response of a person to seeing and accepting the glory of God in Christ. In other words, it is the result of a work by God in a person's life when He opens the person's heart to the Gospel. Have you noticed it is when you are totally consumed with love for God that serving him comes so easy and is a delight? The response of the believer's heart to seeing God's glory is a satisfied heart anxious to please Him. And in serving him, we want others to see and delight in what we see in God, so its natural we want to do good works in such a way that they see our "good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16 ESV)

Funny, I thought of Mathw 5:16 a little while after I posted. When possible, I think it's a good idea to give the glory to God. Maybe it's a way of saying to others: See, you could do it too. Only trouble is - sometimes I feel like I can't do what I'd like to either so then I go to Mathew 11:28-30 If I can't, I rest in the Lord. If I can, I know I'm doing it for Him because nothing on this earth could give us the strength for some things.

Natural to do good works? Yes. A slave has to, a friend wants to.
John 15:15
Galatians 4:7
We are now friends of God. We LIKE to do things for friends.

I do not think he needs evil to bring himself glory, but evil exists because he exists. Let me explain. (This gets a bit arcane, so I hope it doesn't come off sounding weird.)

God is who he is and cannot be any different. Unlike you and I who want to change our nature to conform his nature, he cannot change his nature. We have a word for his nature: good. (Note it is not the word "good" that defines his nature, but rather it is his nature that defines the word "good".) For "good" to have any useful meaning, there has to be not-good, i.e. evil. So by God being good, things that do not conform to his nature is not-God and we describe the not-God stuff as evil. He did not "create" evil, it simply exists because he exists. I sure hope I am making sense, in that I have found this to be very helpful. Please ask for more explanation if it's not clear.

Your explanation doesn't sound arcane or weird. It's a legitimate position. One could agree with it or not.
I like very much the first bolded (mine) sentence. Regarding the second bolded (mine) sentence: Is evil merely the absence of good, or is evil a real thing, being, entity. Is it just a negative or do you see it as a positive (in the sense of something existing in and of itself)?

I would argue it was necessary to bring Him glory in the way He desired. Salvation of a person through the Gospel is all about a person seeing God's glory and delighting in it. In the following passage, I have underlined the end result of God's salvation of a person. (Grace is simply the undeserved goodness God gives us and it really is filled with the essence of God that evokes our esteem and praise of Him. Show me a person who claims to be a Christian and yet has not found delight in God's glorious grace and I will show you a person who is claiming to be something they are not.)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6 ESV)​

Hope this is helpful.

Jesus was supposed to die. It's what He was born for. His destination was Calvary. He came for different purposes: To teach his disciples (us) how to live a life closer to God, to fulfill the Law, and to be our redeemer. Hebrews 2:9-17
Luke 22:22 Jesus knew that He came to die for mankind.

So how does this evoke our esteem and praise of Him? I'd say, yes, it's grace, as you said. It goes to the New Covenant. God's grace is what saves us. Jesus is willing to die for us. This alone would evoke esteem and praise, I'd say. His sacrifice evokes love in us and that's a reason why we're wiling to obey - because we want to. The Law written on the heart.
John 17:1-8
Jeremiah 31:33

Wondering

 

[Malachi]

THE CHURCH WILL BE ETERNALLY TO THE PRAISE OF THE GLORY OF HIS GRACE
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved... That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
(Eph 1:6,12 KJV)

 

[GodsGrace]

THE CHURCH WILL BE ETERNALLY TO THE PRAISE OF THE GLORY OF HIS GRACE
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved... That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
(Eph 1:6,12 KJV)

You know Malachi, your post made me think that some churches today don't bring much glory to God. I live in a place where the carnival is church sponsored (but not paid for) but there is no bible study of any value. I don't see how this could bring esteem and praise to God, using Hospes' definition. Guess this goes to his no. 3 - we should be here to serve Him, not to "mock" Him with this nonsense that goes on.

Galatians 6:7


Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

deleted - duplicate

 

[Malachi]

You know Malachi, your post made me think that some churches today don't bring much glory to God.

You are quite right. That is why we need to distinguish between "the Church" (all redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body) and "churches" (wheat + tares). Christendom is on the decline and much of what goes on in many churches (even those which are evangelical or fundamentalist) does NOT bring glory to God. The world and the flesh have invaded many churches, and the rebukes administered in Revelation 1-3 are greatly needed.

 

[Roro1972]

Thanks, Wondering, for responding. (I expected more response from others, but oh well...!)
I think the "know love and serve" is the necessary response of a person to seeing and accepting the glory of God in Christ. In other words, it is the result of a work by God in a person's life when He opens the person's heart to the Gospel. Have you noticed it is when you are totally consumed with love for God that serving him comes so easy and is a delight? The response of the believer's heart to seeing God's glory is a satisfied heart anxious to please Him. And in serving him, we want others to see and delight in what we see in God, so its natural we want to do good works in such a way that they see our "good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16 ESV)
I do not think he needs evil to bring himself glory, but evil exists because he exists. Let me explain. (This gets a bit arcane, so I hope it doesn't come off sounding weird.)

God is who he is and cannot be any different. Unlike you and I who want to change our nature to conform his nature, he cannot change his nature. We have a word for his nature: good. (Note it is not the word "good" that defines his nature, but rather it is his nature that defines the word "good".) For "good" to have any useful meaning, there has to be not-good, i.e. evil. So by God being good, things that do not conform to his nature is not-God and we describe the not-God stuff as evil. He did not "create" evil, it simply exists because he exists. I sure hope I am making sense, in that I have found this to be very helpful. Please ask for more explanation if it's not clear.


I would argue it was necessary to bring Him glory in the way He desired. Salvation of a person through the Gospel is all about a person seeing God's glory and delighting in it. In the following passage, I have underlined the end result of God's salvation of a person. (Grace is simply the undeserved goodness God gives us and it really is filled with the essence of God that evokes our esteem and praise of Him. Show me a person who claims to be a Christian and yet has not found delight in God's glorious grace and I will show you a person who is claiming to be something they are not.)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6 ESV)​

Hope this is helpful.

can you give insight into Isa 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[Hospes]

can you give insight into Isa 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I can give you my thoughts and I'd welcome hearing any critique of them. I can tell you also some of what I will write I do not hold with a clinched grip, if you know what I mean.

Good exists on its own, because God is self-existent. Evil does not exist on its own; it is the absence or deformation of good. (If you give it some thought, I am sure you can see how many sins are easily recognized as good things deformed.)

Note the parallelism in Isaiah 45:7

light <====> dark
peace <====> evil (At times "evil" is used in the old testament for "calamity", e.g. Job 42:11)​

Light is the self-existent "thing", whereas dark is the absence of light. I would argue "peace" is the self-existent "thing" in the second part and evil(calamity) is the absence of peace.

Because there is light, there is not-light, i.e. dark. Because there is peace, there is not-peace, i.e. calamity/turmoil. Because there is good, there exists not-good, i.e. evil. So in a sense the existence of good "creates" evil in the same way light "creates" darkness. And in this sense of the word "creates", the existence of God "creates" not-God, or evil.

Hope this makes sense and is helpful!

 

[Roro1972]

I can give you my thoughts and I'd welcome hearing any critique of them. I can tell you also some of what I will write I do not hold with a clinched grip, if you know what I mean.

Good exists on its own, because God is self-existent. Evil does not exist on its own; it is the absence or deformation of good. (If you give it some thought, I am sure you can see how many sins are easily recognized as good things deformed.)

Note the parallelism in Isaiah 45:7

light <====> dark
peace <====> evil (At times "evil" is used in the old testament for "calamity", e.g. Job 42:11)​

Light is the self-existent "thing", whereas dark is the absence of light. I would argue "peace" is the self-existent "thing" in the second part and evil(calamity) is the absence of peace.

Because there is light, there is not-light, i.e. dark. Because there is peace, there is not-peace, i.e. calamity/turmoil. Because there is good, there exists not-good, i.e. evil. So in a sense the existence of good "creates" evil in the same way light "creates" darkness. And in this sense of the word "creates", the existence of God "creates" not-God, or evil.

Hope this makes sense and is helpful!

I like your thoughts. thanks

 

[GodsGrace]

You are quite right. That is why we need to distinguish between "the Church" (all redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body) and "churches" (wheat + tares). Christendom is on the decline and much of what goes on in many churches (even those which are evangelical or fundamentalist) does NOT bring glory to God. The world and the flesh have invaded many churches, and the rebukes administered in Revelation 1-3 are greatly needed.

You know, the word of God gives glory to God.
Churches are trying everything else instead.
BUT is it enough today to just proclaim the Word of God?
I noticed on Fox News (one of the channels I get here) all these young kids that WANT socialism. They should try moving to a socialist country and then tell me if it's good.
So what are they learning in universities, is my point.
Certainly they're learning atheism - which makes the churche's job very difficult.
Are we the remnant?

This might be a bit off topic, maybe not, but HOW do we give glory to God?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I can give you my thoughts and I'd welcome hearing any critique of them. I can tell you also some of what I will write I do not hold with a clinched grip, if you know what I mean.

Good exists on its own, because God is self-existent. Evil does not exist on its own; it is the absence or deformation of good. (If you give it some thought, I am sure you can see how many sins are easily recognized as good things deformed.)

Note the parallelism in Isaiah 45:7

light <====> dark
peace <====> evil (At times "evil" is used in the old testament for "calamity", e.g. Job 42:11)​

Light is the self-existent "thing", whereas dark is the absence of light. I would argue "peace" is the self-existent "thing" in the second part and evil(calamity) is the absence of peace.

Because there is light, there is not-light, i.e. dark. Because there is peace, there is not-peace, i.e. calamity/turmoil. Because there is good, there exists not-good, i.e. evil. So in a sense the existence of good "creates" evil in the same way light "creates" darkness. And in this sense of the word "creates", the existence of God "creates" not-God, or evil.

Hope this makes sense and is helpful!

Okay. I agree with all of the above. I remember reading something about this from the early church fathers, but cannot remember who or what he said. No importance.

But, Hospes, you never answered my question in no. 5.
Here it is again:
Your explanation doesn't sound arcane or weird. It's a legitimate position. One could agree with it or not.
I like very much the first bolded (mine) sentence. Regarding the second bolded (mine) sentence: Is evil merely the absence of good, or is evil a real thing, being, entity. Is it just a negative or do you see it as a positive (in the sense of something existing in and of itself)?

I know your position that only God is the non-created, I agree BTW - who doesn't?
So is evil just the absence of good,
or is evil a real "being"? satan would be his name.

Wondering

 

[Hospes]

Okay. I agree with all of the above. I remember reading something about this from the early church fathers, but cannot remember who or what he said. No importance.

But, Hospes, you never answered my question in no. 5.
Here it is again:
Your explanation doesn't sound arcane or weird. It's a legitimate position. One could agree with it or not.
I like very much the first bolded (mine) sentence. Regarding the second bolded (mine) sentence: Is evil merely the absence of good, or is evil a real thing, being, entity. Is it just a negative or do you see it as a positive (in the sense of something existing in and of itself)?

I know your position that only God is the non-created, I agree BTW - who doesn't?
So is evil just the absence of good,
or is evil a real "being"? satan would be his name.

Wondering

Oops! Sorry I didn't ever address your question. Unfortunately, it is 4:30 a.m. and I am about to take off on an all day road trip. I will write as soon as I get opportunity. Probably tomorrow.

(Just didn't want to give the impression I am ignoring your question.)

 

[GodsGrace]

Oops! Sorry I didn't ever address your question. Unfortunately, it is 4:30 a.m. and I am about to take off on an all day road trip. I will write as soon as I get opportunity. Probably tomorrow.

(Just didn't want to give the impression I am ignoring your question.)

No hurry. Have a good time. Interested in your reply.

Wondering

 

[Hospes]

...Regarding the second bolded (mine) sentence: Is evil merely the absence of good, or is evil a real thing, being, entity. Is it just a negative or do you see it as a positive (in the sense of something existing in and of itself)?

...So is evil just the absence of good,or is evil a real "being"? satan would be his name.

I do not think evil exists "in and of itself". Evil exists because good exists just as dark exists because light exists. Evil is the absence of good or, more likely, the perversion of good. Injustice is the perversion of justice, lust is the perversion of sexual desire, pride is the perversion of the truth of God's position relative to myself.

My understanding of Satan:

1. He is a created being that was good and became evil. As a created being, he is less a counterpart to God than a broken clay spittoon is counterpart to a potter.
2. From the book of Job I see Satan is limited by God in whatever way God chooses; for now he is on Gods' leash and one day will be totally made ineffective. (Oh, wonderful day!)
3. He is at his core a fake and a murderer.
4. He is the accusers of Gods' redeemed.

I am sure there is much I do not know about the "rulers", "authorities", "cosmic powers over this present darkness", and the "spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places" mentioned in Ephesians 6. (BTW, I am suspicious of the current pop theology about Satan and "spiritual warfare". It seems foolishly smug.)

 

[By Grace]

You are making some very serious errors of logic here, and primary is your failure to define terms.

First, a working definition:

Glory is the essence of a thing that evokes esteem and praise of that same thing. (A bit awkward, but I hope it works.)​

​

Second major error is that in concocting your own definition, (not even using a dictionary) you are attempting to impose that definition onto a theological discussion, and in particular attributing your definition to God.

The third major error is that you are failing to consult the Bible (or a Bible dictionary) for the definitions of God's glory, so you are off the target right from the get-go.

1. If God's glory is his highest goal, then it would make sense for him to allow evil if it brought himself glory. Example: the greatest evil ever committed was according to God's will and ultimately brought him great glory.
   ...the Lord Jesus Christ who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (Galatians 1:4-5 ESV)

You are attempting to take a short passage ripped out of its context because it contains the word "glory" in it. the entirety of the passage is surely NOT about the glory of God, it is merely a simple greeting to the church at Galatia, as you will see if you read the entire 5 verses:
.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.​

1. [*]If God's glory is his highest goal, then it would make sense for a completely satisfied Creator to create persons in his own image to share in the growing acknowledgement of his glory. (Hearing some people, you get the impression God was lacking in fulfillment until he made creation.)

Your opinion is noted, as is your absence of Scripture to support this statement

1. If God's glory is his highest goal, then I am not his highest goal, but am privileged to participate with God in the enjoyment of his own glory. (To here some Christians talk, you get the (Hearing some people, you get the impression God exists for his creation rather than his creation exists for God.)
   

   I will say to the north, Give up,
   and to the south, Do not withhold;
   bring my sons from afar
   and my daughters from the end of the earth,
   everyone who is called by my name,
   whom I created for my glory,
   whom I formed and made.” (Isaiah 43:6-7 ESV)​

At least you did provide some Scripture here, but as it pertains to what you posted, it does not support it one iota.

Thoughts?

I suspect that you may be having something going on with this line of posting, but I will hesitate in going further, excepting to say that is merely my opinion right now, and that I do reserve the right to be wrong in that matter.

 

[Hospes]

You are making some very serious errors of logic here, and primary is your failure to define terms.

Ummm...I guess I never thought failure to define terms is a serious logical error.Maybe if you tell me the fallacy that is committed when you don't define terms. Never mind; I'm just messing with you. There is no logical fallacy in a failure to define terms. So maybe you can just tell me which terms you want defined and we can come to a resolution.

Second major error is that in concocting your own definition, (not even using a dictionary) you are attempting to impose that definition onto a theological discussion, and in particular attributing your definition to God.

Not quite sure what you mean by "attributing your definition to God." Would you clarify?

The third major error is that you are failing to consult the Bible (or a Bible dictionary) for the definitions of God's glory, so you are off the target right from the get-go.

Dang it! I thought I was consulting the Bible! When you consult the Bible for the definition of glory, what passages do you find best for providing insight?

 

[GodsGrace]

BY GRACE!

What does one post for?
For discussion.
For differing opinions.
For clarity.
For further instruction.

Come on. If you don't like how the O.P. understands the glory of God - give us your own!
I mean, we're discussing the bible here, not the dictionary...

Is God's own glory His highest goal??

Wondering