Premise: God's Highest Goal Is the Increasing Display of His Own Glory

[Hospes]

If God's glory is his highest goal, then it would make sense for him to allow evil if it brought himself glory. Example: the greatest evil ever committed was according to God's will and ultimately brought him great glory.

"...the Lord Jesus Christ who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (Galatians 1:4-5 ESV).​

​

You are attempting to take a short passage ripped out of its context because it contains the word "glory" in it. the entirety of the passage is surely NOT about the glory of God, it is merely a simple greeting to the church at Galatia, as you will see if you read the entire 5 verses....

Grace, I think you are right in writing it is not the best choice to make my point. Thanks you for challenging my choice. Is this a better choice?

In him [Jesus] we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:11-12 ESV)​

 

[WIP]

I noticed on Fox News (one of the channels I get here) all these young kids that WANT socialism. They should try moving to a socialist country and then tell me if it's good.

Not to take this off topic, and maybe another thread could be started to talk about it, but I have been doing some digging with regard to socialism and am slowly learning that my understanding may have been incorrect for most of my life. With regard to your statement above, you might want to reconsider the challenge you posed.

I did a web search for the top 10 socialist countries in the world and according to Peerform they are...
China
Denmark
Finland
Netherlands
Canada
Sweden
Norway
Ireland
New Zealand
Belgium

Then I did a search for the happiest peoples/countries in the world and according to Forbes they are in order...
1. Norway
2. Denmark
3. Finland
4. Australia
5. New Zealand
6. Sweden
7. Canada
8. Switzerland
9. Netherlands
10. United States

I highlighted those that also appear in the top 10 socialist countries. As you can see 7 out of the top 10 happiest peoples are in socialist countries.

 

[Hospes]

Not to take this off topic, and maybe another thread could be started to talk about it...

Hi WIP. Not sure where you got the Wondering quote, but I do not think it is from this thread. Would you be willing to start a new thread and ve your post? That way we won't go way off the original intent of the thread. Thanks!

 

[GodsGrace]

FOR HOSPES AND WIP
In my post no. 13 I alluded to the fact that kids in colleges today are being taught untruthful things and the non-existence of God. I mentioned a Fox report stating that young people in the states seem to favor socialism these days - proof that college could convince you of anything.

WIP posted his findings which are making him question his prior beliefs.
Sorry for the interruption - would just like to invite WIP to come on over if he thinks he'd like it. Reality is always far superior to polls...

END

Wondering

 

[Hospes]

Oops, again. Sorry WIP for not recognizing what prompted your line of thought about what Wondering wrote. I'll try to read more carefully.

This might be a bit off topic, maybe not, but HOW do we give glory to God?

First, I think we need be careful in what we mean by "giving" glory to God. It is not the type of giving I do if I give you a gift. We do not "give" God anything in that sense. I think to give God glory is to bring to peoples' attention - first ourselves - the glory God already has. We give glory to God by pointing out to ourselves and others his glory. Furthermore, I think we give glory to God in the same way we glorify anything else we value. Here's a snippet from C. S. Lewis that I think is really good:

But the most obvious fact about praise - whether of God or anything - strangely escaped me. I thought of it in terms of compliment, approval, or the giving of honor. I had never noticed that all enjoyment spontaneously overflows into praise... The world rings with praise - lovers praising their mistresses, readers their favorite poet, walkers praising the countryside, players praising their favorite game.…My whole, more general difficulty about the praise of God depended on my absurdly denying to us, as regards the supremely Valuable, what we delight to do, what indeed we can’t help doing, about everything else we value. I think we delight to praise what we enjoy because the praise not merely expresses but completes the enjoyment; it is its appointed consummation.​

If you asked me about Grand Canyon, you'd quickly find I value my experience of it. I would tell you of its glory. My guess is, after hearing me talk about it, your response very well may be "I've got to go there someday." You see, I would have shown you something valuable to me that sparks a desire in you to know the value for yourself. God is infinitely more glorious than Grand Canyon, so if I spoke to someone of my love and enjoyment of him, their response very well may be "I'd like to get to know him."

In short, we give glory to God by first finding him to be of infinite worth, satisfaction, and delight, and then letting ourselves express it; to him, to ourselves, and to whoever else willing to listen.


.

 

[WIP]

FOR HOSPES AND WIP
In my post no. 13 I alluded to the fact that kids in colleges today are being taught untruthful things and the non-existence of God. I mentioned a Fox report stating that young people in the states seem to favor socialism these days - proof that college could convince you of anything.

WIP posted his findings which are making him question his prior beliefs.
Sorry for the interruption - would just like to invite WIP to come on over if he thinks he'd like it. Reality is always far superior to polls...

END

Wondering

I started this thread to discuss this. My personal goal is to learn about socialism. I welcome your thoughts.

 

[GodsGrace]

Oops, again. Sorry WIP for not recognizing what prompted your line of thought about what Wondering wrote. I'll try to read more carefully.


First, I think we need be careful in what we mean by "giving" glory to God. It is not the type of giving I do if I give you a gift. We do not "give" God anything in that sense. I think to give God glory is to bring to peoples' attention - first ourselves - the glory God already has. We give glory to God by pointing out to ourselves and others his glory. Furthermore, I think we give glory to God in the same way we glorify anything else we value. Here's a snippet from C. S. Lewis that I think is really good:

But the most obvious fact about praise - whether of God or anything - strangely escaped me. I thought of it in terms of compliment, approval, or the giving of honor. I had never noticed that all enjoyment spontaneously overflows into praise... The world rings with praise - lovers praising their mistresses, readers their favorite poet, walkers praising the countryside, players praising their favorite game.…My whole, more general difficulty about the praise of God depended on my absurdly denying to us, as regards the supremely Valuable, what we delight to do, what indeed we can’t help doing, about everything else we value. I think we delight to praise what we enjoy because the praise not merely expresses but completes the enjoyment; it is its appointed consummation.​

If you asked me about Grand Canyon, you'd quickly find I value my experience of it. I would tell you of its glory. My guess is, after hearing me talk about it, your response very well may be "I've got to go there someday." You see, I would have shown you something valuable to me that sparks a desire in you to know the value for yourself. God is infinitely more glorious than Grand Canyon, so if I spoke to someone of my love and enjoyment of him, their response very well may be "I'd like to get to know him."

In short, we give glory to God by first finding him to be of infinite worth, satisfaction, and delight, and then letting ourselves express it; to him, to ourselves, and to whoever else willing to listen.


.

To God be all glory and praise forever.
Glory and Praise.
I always thought of praise as giving honor.
Another word that comes to mind for the Grand Canyon is Grandeur.
This is God too. His greatness.
Psalm 145:3-7

How do we participate in the enjoyment of this glory that God has?
People are willing to listen about the G.C.
But most are not willing to listen about God. you kind of have to slip Him in there without their hardly noticing it.

W

 

[Hospes]

You are making some very serious errors of logic here, and primary is your failure to define terms.

​

Second major error is that in concocting your own definition, (not even using a dictionary) you are attempting to impose that definition onto a theological discussion, and in particular attributing your definition to God.

The third major error is that you are failing to consult the Bible (or a Bible dictionary) for the definitions of God's glory, so you are off the target right from the get-go.

You are attempting to take a short passage ripped out of its context because it contains the word "glory" in it. the entirety of the passage is surely NOT about the glory of God, it is merely a simple greeting to the church at Galatia, as you will see if you read the entire 5 verses:
.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.​

Your opinion is noted, as is your absence of Scripture to support this statement
At least you did provide some Scripture here, but as it pertains to what you posted, it does not support it one iota.

I suspect that you may be having something going on with this line of posting, but I will hesitate in going further, excepting to say that is merely my opinion right now, and that I do reserve the right to be wrong in that matter.

Hi By Grace.
Where'd you go? You wrote pretty strongly in disagreement, but then disappeared. I find disagreement good; the iron sharpening iron stuff. Anyway, I welcome your engagement, even if you strongly disagree.

 

[Hospes]

To God be all glory and praise forever.
Glory and Praise.
I always thought of praise as giving honor.
Another word that comes to mind for the Grand Canyon is Grandeur.
This is God too. His greatness.
Psalm 145:3-7

How do we participate in the enjoyment of this glory that God has?
People are willing to listen about the G.C.
But most are not willing to listen about God. you kind of have to slip Him in there without their hardly noticing it.

W

Yes, unfortunately people who refused to "honor him as God or give thanks to him...and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things" many times do not want to hear of him. Nonetheless, people do hunger for what the Gospel offers. People desperately try to find satisfaction where there is none:

[God speaking]
they have forsaken me,
the fountain of living waters,
and hewed out cisterns for themselves,
broken cisterns that can hold no water. (Jeremiah 2:13 ESV)​

So maybe if we speak boldly of our satisfactions, it would soften people up for hearing about the Source.

(Full disclosure: I do not have a good record for sharing such things with unbelievers, so I am now writing more to myself than anyone.)

​

 

[By Grace]

Hi By Grace.
Where'd you go? You wrote pretty strongly in disagreement, but then disappeared. I find disagreement good; the iron sharpening iron stuff. Anyway, I welcome your engagement, even if you strongly disagree.

I have been waiting for a clarification from you. I have yet to see that clarification for which I asked.

By Grace said: ↑
You are making some very serious errors of logic here, and primary is your failure to define terms.

Ummm...I guess I never thought failure to define terms is a serious logical error.Maybe if you tell me the fallacy that is committed when you don't define terms. Never mind; I'm just messing with you. There is no logical fallacy in a failure to define terms. So maybe you can just tell me which terms you want defined and we can come to a resolution.

To the contrary, a failure to define terms is the difference between discussing lug nuts and apples. That is how many cults operate, and they, (especially the LDS) will use Christian words to describe their distinctly non Bible-based distortion of who Jesus Christ actually is.

You posted: " There is no logical fallacy in a failure to define terms" but indeed there is. How can another person know that you are posting about the same things unless you agree to the usage of a common definition?

Your opinion is noted, as is your absence of Scripture to support this statement

Not quite sure what you mean by "attributing your definition to God." Would you clarify?

What you are doing is akin to using the Vedas (Hindu holy book) to describe the God of Christianity because you are not using the source book, the Bible as the primary reference point.

Dang it! I thought I was consulting the Bible! When you consult the Bible for the definition of glory, what passages do you find best for providing insight?

Here is a study of the names of God in the Old Testament:

1. Elohim, meaning “God,” a reference to God’s power and might Genesis 1:1; Psalm 19:1
2. Adonai, meaning “Lord,” a reference to the Lordship of God Malachi 1:6
3. Jehovah (sometimes spelled Yahweh), a reference to God’s divine salvation Genesis 2:4
4. Jehovah-Maccaddeshem, meaning “The Lord thy sanctifier” Exodus 31:13
5. Jehovah-Rohi, meaning “The Lord my shepherd” Psalm 23:1
6. Jehovah-Shammah, meaning “The Lord who is present” Ezekiel 48:35
7. Jehovah-Rapha, meaning “The Lord our healer” Exodus 16:26
8. Jehovah-Tsidkenu, meaning “The Lord our righteousness” Jer. 23:6
9. Jehovah-Jireh, meaning “The Lord will provide” Genesis 22:13–14
10. Jehovah-Nissi, meaning “The Lord our banner” Exodus 17:15
11. Jehovah-Shalom, meaning “The Lord is peace” Judges 6:24
12. Jehovah-Sabbaoth, meaning “The Lord of Hosts” Isaiah 6:1–3
13. El-Elyon, meaning “The most high God” Genesis 14:17–20; Isaiah 14:13–14
14. El-Roi, meaning “The strong one who sees” Gen. 16:12
15. El-Shaddai, meaning “The God of the mountains” or “God almighty” Genesis 17:1; Ps. 91:1
16. El-Olam, meaning “The everlasting God” Isaiah 40:28–31​

Willmington, H. L. (1987). Willmington’s book of Bible lists (pp. 122–123). Wheaton, IL: Tyndale.

If you hover over the verses, or tap on them, you will be provided a hyperlink to the verse in full

 

[By Grace]

BY GRACE!

What does one post for?
For discussion.
For differing opinions.
For clarity.
For further instruction.

Come on. If you don't like how the O.P. understands the glory of God - give us your own!
I mean, we're discussing the bible here, not the dictionary...

Is God's own glory His highest goal??

Wondering

Wondering, since you seem upset at my requesting more information from Hospes, please demonstrate where in his OP he defined anything, or used Scripture to pin his meaning down. As to your question, please read these references:

John 12::28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
John 13:32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him
John 16: 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
John 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me
John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Glorify
glo'-ri-fi: The English word is the equivalent of a number of Hebrew and Greek words whose essential significance is discussed more fully under the word GLORY (which see). The word "glorious" in the phrases "make or render glorious" is used most frequently as a translation of verbs in the original, rather than of genuine adjectives In dealing with the verb it will be sufficient to indicate the following most important uses.

(1) Men may glorify God, that is, give to Him the worship and reverence which are His due (Isa 24:15; 25:3; Ps 22:23; Da 5:23; Sirach 43:30; Mt 5:16, and generally in the Synoptic Gospels and in some other passages of the New Testament).

(2) God, Yahweh (Yahweh), glorifies His people, His house, and in the New Testament, His Son, manifesting His approval of them and His interest in them, by His interposition on their behalf (Isa 55:5; Jer 30:19; The Wisdom of Solomon 18:8; Sirach 45:3; Joh 7:39, and often in the Fourth Gospel).

(3) By a usage which is practically confined to the Old Testament, Yahweh glorifies Himself, that is, secures the recognition of His honor and majesty, by His direction of the course of history, or by His interposition in history, either the history of His own people or of the world at large (Le 10:3; Isa 26:15; Eze 28:22; Hag 1:8).​

from International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE) Walter R. Betteridge http://www.internationalstandardbible.com/G/glorify.html

You see, the poster could have referenced any of these as a starting point, but s/he chose not to do so. Therefore I am not at fault for requesting clarification

 

[Hospes]

...a failure to define terms is the difference between discussing lug nuts and apples....You posted: " There is no logical fallacy in a failure to define terms" but indeed there is. How can another person know that you are posting about the same things unless you agree to the usage of a common definition?

I agree; to have a useful discussion on a topic there must be common definitions used. That is why I defined glory in the OP. But, Grace, there is no logical fallacy in a failure to define terms. Logical fallacy involves incorrect reasoning. People using different definitions is really harmful to useful communication, but it is not a matter of incorrect reasoning. You may claim sliced and caramel dipped lug nuts are delicious and I would disagree and tell you I can't imagine them being good all. We have a dispute, but you are not guilty incorrect reasoning; you simply have an incorrect definition for lug nuts.

What you are doing is akin to using the Vedas (Hindu holy book) to describe the God of Christianity because you are not using the source book, the Bible as the primary reference point.

Gracie, statements like this cause me to think you are good an pronouncing opinions, but not at thoughtfully engaging in a dispute. To thoughtfully disagree with me would be to write something like "Hospes, it seems to me your definition for glory is not consistent with Jedediah 27:11." or "Hospes, according to 2 Apollos 23:9 God's highest goal is ..." To just state that I do not use the scriptures as my primary reference point is just a conclusion with no premise(s) behind it. You should first present your premises and then show how they lead to the conclusion I have abandoned the Bible as my guide. If you do this well, you may be able to show me where I am wrong or at least provide me the opportunity to clarify/modify my writing. I encourage you to give supporting-premises-followed-by-conclusion a try.

Here is a study of the names of God in the Old Testament:

1. Elohim, meaning “God,” a reference to God’s power and might Genesis 1:1; Psalm 19:1
2. Adonai, meaning “Lord,” a reference to the Lordship of God Malachi 1:6
3. Jehovah (sometimes spelled Yahweh), a reference to God’s divine salvation Genesis 2:4
4. Jehovah-Maccaddeshem, meaning “The Lord thy sanctifier” Exodus 31:13
5. Jehovah-Rohi, meaning “The Lord my shepherd” Psalm 23:1
6. Jehovah-Shammah, meaning “The Lord who is present” Ezekiel 48:35
7. Jehovah-Rapha, meaning “The Lord our healer” Exodus 16:26
8. Jehovah-Tsidkenu, meaning “The Lord our righteousness” Jer. 23:6
9. Jehovah-Jireh, meaning “The Lord will provide” Genesis 22:13–14
10. Jehovah-Nissi, meaning “The Lord our banner” Exodus 17:15
11. Jehovah-Shalom, meaning “The Lord is peace” Judges 6:24
12. Jehovah-Sabbaoth, meaning “The Lord of Hosts” Isaiah 6:1–3
13. El-Elyon, meaning “The most high God” Genesis 14:17–20; Isaiah 14:13–14
14. El-Roi, meaning “The strong one who sees” Gen. 16:12
15. El-Shaddai, meaning “The God of the mountains” or “God almighty” Genesis 17:1; Ps. 91:1
16. El-Olam, meaning “The everlasting God” Isaiah 40:28–31​

Willmington, H. L. (1987). Willmington’s book of Bible lists (pp. 122–123). Wheaton, IL: Tyndale.

If you hover over the verses, or tap on them, you will be provided a hyperlink to the verse in full

Would you please give me your reasoning for thinking that my looking at a cut-n-paste of the names of God is connected to what I have written? Not that I think the names of God is unimportant, it's just I am not sure of your point.

 

[WIP]

How about we stick to discussing the topic and not the right or wrong way about how each other presents his/her views. Our goal should not be to define the winners and losers in the argument but to help each other learn and come to the Truth. Keeping the Forum Guidelines in mind while posting can be very helpful with this as it keeps the attention focused on the Word of God rather than each other.

 

[Hospes]

Wondering, since you seem upset at my requesting more information from Hospes, please demonstrate where in his OP he defined anything, or used Scripture to pin his meaning down. As to your question, please read these references:

John 12::28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
John 13:32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him
John 16: 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
John 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me
John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Glorify
glo'-ri-fi: The English word is the equivalent of a number of Hebrew and Greek words whose essential significance is discussed more fully under the word GLORY (which see). The word "glorious" in the phrases "make or render glorious" is used most frequently as a translation of verbs in the original, rather than of genuine adjectives In dealing with the verb it will be sufficient to indicate the following most important uses.

(1) Men may glorify God, that is, give to Him the worship and reverence which are His due (Isa 24:15; 25:3; Ps 22:23; Da 5:23; Sirach 43:30; Mt 5:16, and generally in the Synoptic Gospels and in some other passages of the New Testament).

(2) God, Yahweh (Yahweh), glorifies His people, His house, and in the New Testament, His Son, manifesting His approval of them and His interest in them, by His interposition on their behalf (Isa 55:5; Jer 30:19; The Wisdom of Solomon 18:8; Sirach 45:3; Joh 7:39, and often in the Fourth Gospel).

(3) By a usage which is practically confined to the Old Testament, Yahweh glorifies Himself, that is, secures the recognition of His honor and majesty, by His direction of the course of history, or by His interposition in history, either the history of His own people or of the world at large (Le 10:3; Isa 26:15; Eze 28:22; Hag 1:8).​

from International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE) Walter R. Betteridge http://www.internationalstandardbible.com/G/glorify.html

You see, the poster could have referenced any of these as a starting point, but s/he chose not to do so. Therefore I am not at fault for requesting clarification

Glory is the essence of a thing that evokes esteem and praise of that same thing. (A bit awkward, but I hope it works.)

I think to give God glory is to bring to peoples' attention - first ourselves - the glory God already has. We give glory to God by pointing out to ourselves and others his glory.

Grace, can you explain where and how any of what you have written is in contradiction with what I have written above? For instance, when Jesus prays that God will glorify him and that God will glorify himself, wouldn't it make sense that he is asking that their "essence...that evokes esteem and praise" be brought "to peoples' attention"? Also, since Jesus spoke of - and prayed for - his father and himself being glorified, wouldn't that indicate the increase of his own glory to be important to God?

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering, since you seem upset at my requesting more information from Hospes, please demonstrate where in his OP he defined anything, or used Scripture to pin his meaning down. As to your question, please read these references:

John 12::28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
John 13:32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him
John 16: 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
John 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me
John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Glorify
glo'-ri-fi: The English word is the equivalent of a number of Hebrew and Greek words whose essential significance is discussed more fully under the word GLORY (which see). The word "glorious" in the phrases "make or render glorious" is used most frequently as a translation of verbs in the original, rather than of genuine adjectives In dealing with the verb it will be sufficient to indicate the following most important uses.

(1) Men may glorify God, that is, give to Him the worship and reverence which are His due (Isa 24:15; 25:3; Ps 22:23; Da 5:23; Sirach 43:30; Mt 5:16, and generally in the Synoptic Gospels and in some other passages of the New Testament).

(2) God, Yahweh (Yahweh), glorifies His people, His house, and in the New Testament, His Son, manifesting His approval of them and His interest in them, by His interposition on their behalf (Isa 55:5; Jer 30:19; The Wisdom of Solomon 18:8; Sirach 45:3; Joh 7:39, and often in the Fourth Gospel).

(3) By a usage which is practically confined to the Old Testament, Yahweh glorifies Himself, that is, secures the recognition of His honor and majesty, by His direction of the course of history, or by His interposition in history, either the history of His own people or of the world at large (Le 10:3; Isa 26:15; Eze 28:22; Hag 1:8).​

from International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE) Walter R. Betteridge http://www.internationalstandardbible.com/G/glorify.html

You see, the poster could have referenced any of these as a starting point, but s/he chose not to do so. Therefore I am not at fault for requesting clarification

Instead YOU did !
Thanks for the instruction.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

HOSPES,

In your last pp on no. 34 you say:

"For instance, when Jesus prays that God will glorify him and that God will glorify himself, wouldn't it make sense that he is asking that their "essence...that evokes esteem and praise" be brought "to peoples' attention"? Also, since Jesus spoke of - and prayed for - his father and himself being glorified, wouldn't that indicate the increase of his own glory to be important to God?"

Re the last sentence I highlighted: Are you saying that God's glory can be increased? Or do you mean that we acknowledge all the glory He already has? (ditto for Jesus).

I've never thought of this.

Wondering

 

[Hospes]

HOSPES,

In your last pp on no. 34 you say:

"For instance, when Jesus prays that God will glorify him and that God will glorify himself, wouldn't it make sense that he is asking that their "essence...that evokes esteem and praise" be brought "to peoples' attention"? Also, since Jesus spoke of - and prayed for - his father and himself being glorified, wouldn't that indicate the increase of his own glory to be important to God?"

Re the last sentence I highlighted: Are you saying that God's glory can be increased? Or do you mean that we acknowledge all the glory He already has? (ditto for Jesus).

I've never thought of this.

Wondering

God is infinitely glorious regardless of anything, so I think for him to be increasingly glorified must mean his glory is increasingly apparent to us, to others, to the angelic beings, to forces of evil, etc.

When Jesus said "Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son." (John 14:13 ESV), I think it is clear nothing is being added to God's glory by Jesus doing what we ask in his name, it's just that when he does give us what we ask in his name, we see his goodness and glorify God. Jesus also commands us to "...let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16 ESV) Again, it seems to indicate people seeing the good works recognize God's goodness in the works and esteem him for them. Personally, when I worship and my heart soars with delight and praise, it seems the only thing I have really done is turned my attention to him, seen a bit of his infinite worth, and then "we delight to praise what we enjoy because the praise not merely expresses but completes the enjoyment; it is its appointed consummation."

Hope this helps!

 

[GodsGrace]

God is infinitely glorious regardless of anything, so I think for him to be increasingly glorified must mean his glory is increasingly apparent to us, to others, to the angelic beings, to forces of evil, etc.

When Jesus said "Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son." (John 14:13 ESV), I think it is clear nothing is being added to God's glory by Jesus doing what we ask in his name, it's just that when he does give us what we ask in his name, we see his goodness and glorify God. Jesus also commands us to "...let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16 ESV) Again, it seems to indicate people seeing the good works recognize God's goodness in the works and esteem him for them. Personally, when I worship and my heart soars with delight and praise, it seems the only thing I have really done is turned my attention to him, seen a bit of his infinite worth, and then "we delight to praise what we enjoy because the praise not merely expresses but completes the enjoyment; it is its appointed consummation."

Hope this helps!

God is infinitely glorious regardless of anything, so I think for him to be increasingly glorified must mean his glory is increasingly apparent to us, to others, to the angelic beings, to forces of evil, etc.

When Jesus said "Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son." (John 14:13 ESV), I think it is clear nothing is being added to God's glory by Jesus doing what we ask in his name, it's just that when he does give us what we ask in his name, we see his goodness and glorify God. Jesus also commands us to "...let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16 ESV) Again, it seems to indicate people seeing the good works recognize God's goodness in the works and esteem him for them. Personally, when I worship and my heart soars with delight and praise, it seems the only thing I have really done is turned my attention to him, seen a bit of his infinite worth, and then "we delight to praise what we enjoy because the praise not merely expresses but completes the enjoyment; it is its appointed consummation."

Hope this helps!

Sure it helps. But following is what started this whole thread in the first place, from a thread on Free Will:

You said:
Wondering,
I think you are closer than you think to reconciling in your mind free will with the providence of God. If you added into the mix of your thoughts the belief that God's highest goal is his own glory, they would become even more reconciled.

I was saying how I'm not too happy to talk about reconciling man's free will with God's Providence because I don't understand it and it's too difficult for me.
And you replied with the above.

Can't make the jump necessary to understand how adding His glory into the mix could help. I've tried.
I mean, how could putting evil in there add to His glory? I understand about Jesus sacrifice. Is there a more general idea at work here? In understanding His providence, we have to accept that he allows evil to operate. How does this give Him glory?

Wondering

 

[Hospes]

Sure it helps. But following is what started this whole thread in the first place, from a thread on Free Will:

You said:
Wondering,
I think you are closer than you think to reconciling in your mind free will with the providence of God. If you added into the mix of your thoughts the belief that God's highest goal is his own glory, they would become even more reconciled.

I was saying how I'm not too happy to talk about reconciling man's free will with God's Providence because I don't understand it and it's too difficult for me.
And you replied with the above.

Can't make the jump necessary to understand how adding His glory into the mix could help. I've tried.
I mean, how could putting evil in there add to His glory? I understand about Jesus sacrifice. Is there a more general idea at work here? In understanding His providence, we have to accept that he allows evil to operate. How does this give Him glory?

Wondering

Wondering, after some thought, I think it will take some unpacking to address your question. You have a good question that does not have an easy answer. Over a few posts I will try to tell you how I have come to see it in the light of my understanding of scriptures. I do not have it detailed out, but I have found comfort in the sketch I have. Hope it helps you as well.

Begin with the end goal in mind. I see all of God's work since creation moving toward what is laid out for us in Revelation:

And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. (Revelation 21:6-7 ESV)
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever. (Revelation 22:1-5 ESV)​

"They will see his face..." is a statement of beholding his glory without a veil. Right now we catch glimpses of his glory, but then we will see it all and "will worship him." We will attain in full the "surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus" and gained our greatest treasure. (Philippians 3:8 ESV) For this end God exercises his sovereignty; it is the end goal of providence. This was his goal from before the world was made.

If you believe this, it means the Garden of Eden was not a good thing meant to last forever, that having the nation of Israel follow him was not his final goal, that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not a response to sin but was planned even before Eve had the chance to be deceived. (The book of life of the slain Lamb was written before the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8 ESV) God is not in some cosmic chess game where he has to respond to opponent's moves with countermoves.

 

[Hospes]

In the previous post, I hope I made the case all of God's work from before creation was with the end goal of what we see in Revelation when God declares "It is done!"

I mean, how could putting evil in there add to His glory?

I think God put "evil in there" the same as light puts dark "in there". I do think even the dark of evil can serve his purposes, though. Three examples:

1. The book of Job has God allowing Satan to bring calamity upon Job. The limits of the calamity were set by God. It is obvious Satan had to gain permission to touch Job. The evil that Job received was to display his devotion to his God. Job glorified God in that he was a demonstration to all that God was more valuable than all Satan took from him.
2. In Isaiah 10, God speaks of the King of Assyria as being "the rod of my anger; the staff in their hands is my fury!" He had used the King of Assyria to punish Israel and in chapter 10 he declares judgment for the evil Assyria had done while being the rod of God's anger.
3. Jesus said to Pilate “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above...” (John 19:11 ESV). Jesus was saying the very authority Pilate was using to eventually murder the Son of God was given to Pilate by God.

There are other examples throughout the scriptures of God using people prone to evil to bring about his will. Note that though evil is there, it is not a sign he has lost any sovereignty.

One more note on evil: we naturally gravitate toward it. If God did not hold the reigns, we would naturally move ever more toward evil. Apart from God, our modus operandi is evil. It is God's restraint on us keeping us from becoming much worse than we are. Yes, we are free moral agents; unfortunately we seek evil in our freedom. Fortunately, God influences our motives in order for us to freely choose good. Without his influence, there are none righteous, not even one. It should not be a shocker that men do evil; given who we are, it should shock us that we do good. In Romans 1 the phrase "God gave them up" describes what I mean here by God stopping his influence toward good and allowing a person to run more freely toward evil.

Hope I am clear so far.