Premise: God's Highest Goal Is the Increasing Display of His Own Glory

[Roro1972]

You packed a bunch of great truth in your post. I enjoyed reading it. Thanks.

If you haven't, would you read the quote I gave from C. S. Lewis in post #25? I think he makes it really clear the connection between praise and valuing and delighting in God. Let me know if is resonates with you. I know it describes my experience.

I did read it. before I reply I want to read and think on ir some.
I thought you may have some correction for me.

 

[Hospes]

The words that the other poster uses are neither taught, nor inferred in Scripture.
The Admin WIP also noted that the poster was posting stuff that was not "orthodox Christianity" or words to that effect
The poster admitted that his views had not been accepted by Evangelical churches, nor did they consider himself to be a Christian. Instead, he used some other terms.

Finally, his definition of "glory" had nothing to do with the word, and in fact, he admitted that he concocted it himself, and did not bother with a dictionary. Even you noticed that I went out of my way to help the process along by doing a word study from John on "glory". STILL nothing came of it.

My approach to him was grace-filled, and was attempting to get him to clarify his position, but I surely was not going to let him to go off on irrelevant and incoherent tangents for which there was no Scriptural support without a gentle challenge. I even probed to determine if the poster was Oneness; he denied that. Since he declined to give any answer that was coherent, he was frustrated.

Hi By Grace.

I really do not want to leave you misunderstanding me, so let me very clearly write I am definitely an evangelical Christian, am very orthodox in my views, and never have felt frustrated during this thread. I am sorry if I come off as incoherent or that my ideas appear unhinged from the truth of the Bible. WIP did make a comment that I deserved (post #33), but it only addressed my writing about how you engage in discussion/debate. I correct course accordingly and stuck to the topic. I honestly did not mean to offend you, though admittedly in order to lighten up the mood, I teased you a bit. My sincere apologies.

 

[Hospes]

I did read it. before I reply I want to read and think on ir some.
I thought you may have some correction for me.

I look forward to hearing you thoughts on what Lewis wrote.

I have no correction, but just for fun I can add my thoughts to yours:

Everything written in the Bible I believe. I have no Biblical training at all. My beliefs are subject to change when some one shows and teaches from scripture something that I misunderstand.

I, also, want to subject every thought and action to the truth of the scripture. It was a joy to read where your heart is on this.

I think All should give praise and Glory to God the Creator. John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
For me I see Praise and Glory having two different meanings and that may be my downfall.

I think you are right. The way I see it, the glory of God is what motivates our praise and His glory is the object of our praise. The last words of Ephesians 1:14 is "to the praise of his glory." Don't you find when you turn your attention to the "the beauty of His spirit" you can't help but have a heart of praise? That's how it works for me.

The glory of God is the beauty of His spirit. It is not an aesthetic beauty or a material beauty, but it is the beauty that emanates from His character, from all that He is.

I think this is saying the same as what I wrote when I wrote of his essence as being his goodness. I'd willingly use both "goodness" and "beauty of his spirit" interchangeably.

This spirit is placed in Saints for all including God to see. I believe he gets joy from seeing his spirit emanate in/out of us.

A phenomenally wonderful thing. To think that the creator of the universe would choose to make us into children in which he finds pleasure! Note in making us objects of beauty through the work of Jesus, he is not only finding pleasure in us but is ultimately finding pleasure in his own workmanship and in Jesus. In the end it is all about him, "for from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36 ESV)

You don't need correction; you need cheered on!

 

[Hospes]

...reconciling man's free will with God's Providence...

Originally, this thread was initiated in order to add some thoughts together that I have found useful in making sense of what W mentioned above. In summary, here are those thoughts:

1. Gods' highest goal is the ever growing display of his own glory.
2. God's work since before the beginning of creation was toward attaining his highest goal, has been done with absolute sovereignty, and has been moving toward his statement of "It is done!" in Revelation 21:6.
3. God's existence necessitates the existence of evil in the same way light's existence necessitates the existence of dark.
4. We are free moral agents, but given no restraints, we will use our freedom to move toward evil.
5. God in absolute sovereignty restrains evil - in us and in all other forces of evil, e.g. Satan - and uses it as a tool to accomplish his purposes.
6. We as creatures and reconciled children of God must in humility trust the goodness of God when our experience with evil leaves us with hard questions and the unsatisfied desire to understand his mysterious ways.

In earlier posts I attempted to give the scriptural basis and reasoning for each of these. Sure hope this helps someone.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Hospes,

I'd like to add something to your post above no. 64 and item 6.

It's not always easy to trust the goodness of God. Many times I've questioned if He isn't giving me more than I can handle. This experience with evil does leave us with hard questions. Questions that have no answer. This is where trust comes in.

I heard once that when thing are good and going well, we should get to know Jesus ever better and fill ourselves up with His word and come to grips with the above problem and figure out how we'll handle adversity when it comes. Because come it will.

So if we're ready for it (can we ever really be ready?) we'll be much more able to fight off the evil one's temptations in convincing us to abandon Jesus, or to not trust Him.
Ephesians 6.12
John 10:10
2 Timothy 1:7
Ephesians 6.11-17

And I always like to repeat to myself every now and then:
John 6:68

Just to remind myself that I'm in the right place with the right "person."

Wondering
Hospes, have been having trouble getting alerts.
Will go back and read all tomorrow morning. W.

 

[Hospes]

Hi Hospes,

I'd like to add something to your post above no. 64 and item 6.

It's not always easy to trust the goodness of God. Many times I've questioned if He isn't giving me more than I can handle. This experience with evil does leave us with hard questions. Questions that have no answer. This is where trust comes in.

I heard once that when thing are good and going well, we should get to know Jesus ever better and fill ourselves up with His word and come to grips with the above problem and figure out how we'll handle adversity when it comes. Because come it will.

So if we're ready for it (can we ever really be ready?) we'll be much more able to fight off the evil one's temptations in convincing us to abandon Jesus, or to not trust Him.
Ephesians 6.12
John 10:10
2 Timothy 1:7
Ephesians 6.11-17

And I always like to repeat to myself every now and then:
John 6:68

Just to remind myself that I'm in the right place with the right "person."

Wondering
Hospes, have been having trouble getting alerts.
Will go back and read all tomorrow morning. W.

Amen! W, I'm growing in my appreciation of your heart for Christ. Thanks.

 

[Jim Parker]

First, a working definition:

Glory is the essence of a thing that evokes esteem and praise of that same thing. (A bit awkward, but I hope it works.)​

Believing this premise has been very helpful in making other things "make sense." For instance:

1. If God's glory is his highest goal, then it would make sense for him to allow evil if it brought himself glory. Example: the greatest evil ever committed was according to God's will and ultimately brought him great glory.
   ...the Lord Jesus Christ who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (Galatians 1:4-5 ESV)
2. If God's glory is his highest goal, then it would make sense for a completely satisfied Creator to create persons in his own image to share in the growing acknowledgement of his glory. (Hearing some people, you get the impression God was lacking in fulfillment until he made creation.)
3. If God's glory is his highest goal, then I am not his highest goal, but am privileged to participate with God in the enjoyment of his own glory. (To here some Christians talk, you get the (Hearing some people, you get the impression God exists for his creation rather than his creation exists for God.)
   
   I will say to the north, Give up,
   and to the south, Do not withhold;
   bring my sons from afar
   and my daughters from the end of the earth,
   everyone who is called by my name,
   whom I created for my glory,
   whom I formed and made.” (Isaiah 43:6-7 ESV)​

Thoughts?

God is love.
Gd is patient and kind.
God is not jealous or boastful.
God is not arrogant or rude.
God does not insist on His own way.
God is not irritable or resentful.
God does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.
God bears all things and endures all things.
God never ends.

God's highest goal is that all of mankind spend eternity with Him.
He gave His only begotten Son to make that possible.
God did that because God is love.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jim Parker (where have you been)

You say God's greatest goal is to have mankind spend eternity with Him.
Could it be that simple?
Why would He have put us here in satan's territory to have to battle it out if that was His only goal?
Don't go to Adam and Eve. He knew from the beginning we'd sin and attain the sin nature.
The very fact the He gave us an out by believing in His Son, Jesus, says that this was NECESSARY and does it mean that somehow He takes some responsibility for our sin?

I always feel like there's something more going on here. Maybe Hospes is right. Maybe God put us here to show satan how we would end up giving GOD the glory? At least those of us who choose to - and that this choice is even possible in a sinful man - making it all the more important (as a choice).

I think that God WANTS us to spend eternity with Him, I'm just not sure that's His final goal.
I have no idea as to what that goal may be and I do spend some time thinking about it every now and then, but I'm not obsessive about it since I know I won't get the answer. His glory might be one...

Wondering

 

[Hospes]

God is love.
Gd is patient and kind.
God is not jealous or boastful.
God is not arrogant or rude.
God does not insist on His own way.
God is not irritable or resentful.
God does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.
God bears all things and endures all things.
God never ends.

God's highest goal is that all of mankind spend eternity with Him.
He gave His only begotten Son to make that possible.
God did that because God is love.

Hi Jim.

I absolutely believe the source of all love is God. One must be careful to not simply switch out love and God as if they are the same, though.

• "God is not jealous or boastful" - but he is jealous and boastful. "...for I the Lord your God am a jealous God." (Exodus 20:5 ESV)
• "God does not insist on His own way" - but he does insist on his own way. "...for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ (Isaiah 46:9-10 ESV)
• "God bears all things and endures all things." - but he does not bear and endure all things forever. Our hope of eternity is filled with expectation he will stop enduring his enemies and destroy them.

Also, if "God's highest goal is that all of mankind spend eternity with Him.", then according to scriptures he will not accomplish his purpose; only the elect will spend eternity with him.

Jim, I grew up in the evangelical church and much of the presentation of the Gospel emphasized how important I was to God. It made much of me and neglected the infinite worth of God. I think the motive was to attract me and others to the idea of becoming a Christian. (Who doesn't love the idea that "God has a wonderful plan for your life"?) The motive was good, but the method was absolutely wrong. It is not that I am somehow super-duper to God, it is that God is an unimaginably greatest treasure to be gained through the Good News of Jesus Christ. Enough of a treasure for a man that "in his joy he goes and sells all that he has" to acquire it. (Matthew 13:44 ESV)

Little side note: I have to smile at the irony of what Jesus said was his "wonderful plan" for Saul-turned-Paul:

But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he [Paul] is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” (Acts 9:15-16 ESV)​

 

[smaller]

Hi Jim.

I absolutely believe the source of all love is God. One must be careful to not simply switch out love and God as if they are the same, though.

• "God is not jealous or boastful" - but he is jealous and boastful. "...for I the Lord your God am a jealous God." (Exodus 20:5 ESV)
• "God does not insist on His own way" - but he does insist on his own way. "...for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ (Isaiah 46:9-10 ESV)
• "God bears all things and endures all things." - but he does not bear and endure all things forever. Our hope of eternity is filled with expectation he will stop enduring his enemies and destroy them.

Indeed. These are never "one sided, only beneficial scriptural equations we deal with. There are many many examples of the dynamic you have rightfully observed above. I'd add to the list that God is not the Author of confusion, but confused the language of the people at the tower of Babel in Gen. 11. OR that God tempts no man, yet tempted Abraham in Gen. 22.

There are legitimate ways to harmonize these seeming conflicts.

Also, if "God's highest goal is that all of mankind spend eternity with Him.", then according to scriptures he will not accomplish his purpose; only the elect will spend eternity with him.

Jim, I grew up in the evangelical church and much of the presentation of the Gospel emphasized how important I was to God. It made much of me and neglected the infinite worth of God. I think the motive was to attract myself and others to the idea of becoming a Christian. (Who doesn't love the idea that "God has a wonderful plan for your life"?) The motive was good, but the method was absolutely wrong. It is not that I am somehow super-duper to God, it is that God is an unimaginably greatest treasure to be gained through the Good News of Jesus Christ. Enough of a treasure for a man that "in his joy he goes and sells all that he has" to acquire it. (Matthew 13:44 ESV)

Little side not: I have to smile at the irony of what Jesus said was his "wonderful plan" for Saul-turned-Paul:

But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he [Paul] is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” (Acts 9:15-16 ESV)​

The Saul to Paul event is interesting. Paul's Apostolic doctrines stem from "how" Paul got to where he got from the start. It was certainly nothing that Paul did to "get there."

1 Timothy 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Looks like a One Way street of direct intervention to me.

There is an O.T. principle that is laid out as follows:

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Technically speaking, when we believed, we died and are made alive in and to Christ.

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Paul laid out the intimacies of this, his flesh death in Romans 7:

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Paul elaborates and expands on this theme, again, extensively, showing how "sin" still operated in his own flesh. Gal. 4:14 for example, culminating in his sights in Gal. 4:29 and Gal. 5:17, where in both cases Paul was speaking of the individual believer, not "the believer" and some other guy.

 

[Jim Parker]

Hi Jim.

I absolutely believe the source of all love is God. One must be careful to not simply switch out love and God as if they are the same, though.

1Jo 4:8 (RSV) He who does not love does not know God; for God is love.
1Jo 4:16 (RSV) So we know and believe the love God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

• "God is not jealous or boastful" - but he is jealous and boastful. "...for I the Lord your God am a jealous God." (Exodus 20:5 ESV)

• God is not jealous as a human is jealous. WE are jealous when we see someone who has something we want for ourselves. God is jealous when He sees us doing something which will cause us to forfeit our eternal life. And "I the Lord your God" is a statement of fact, not boasting.
  

• [*]"God does not insist on His own way" - but he does insist on his own way. "...for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ (Isaiah 46:9-10 ESV)

• That there is no other God is a statement of fact, not God insisting on having his own way.
  
• That He accomplishes His purpose refers to His destroying the power of death and opening paradise for whoever will believe.
  

• [*]"God bears all things and endures all things." - but he does not bear and endure all things forever. Our hope of eternity is filled with expectation he will stop enduring his enemies and destroy them.

• 2Pe 3:9 (RSV)The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
• God will not destroy His enemies. He will give them exactly what they chose; eternal separation from Him.

Also, if "God's highest goal is that all of mankind spend eternity with Him.", then according to scriptures he will not accomplish his purpose; only the elect will spend eternity with him.

That is correct. God has accomplished what only He could do, destroy death by the death and resurrection of the Son which guaranteed that all of mankind would be raised from the dead. (1 COR 15:52-54) But God has given mankind the choice to be united with Him in eternal life or separated from Him in eternal death. (RO 2:6-10)

It is not that I am somehow super-duper to God, it is that God is an unimaginably greatest treasure to be gained through the Good News of Jesus Christ. Enough of a treasure for a man that "in his joy he goes and sells all that he has" to acquire it. (Matthew 13:44 ESV)

If God had not acted in love toward mankind, that treasure would be unattainable.