Pretrib Teachings Damaging to Our Very Soul - Part 1

[dianegcook]

There are three woes mentioned in Revelations. God would not have bothered giving us all of this if we were going to be taken out of here. Once we are caught up to Christ the door of Salvation is closed forever and then comes judgement.

First woe
First trumpet Rev 8:6-7
Second trumpet Rev 8:8,9
Third trumpet Rev 8:10,11
Fourth trumpet Rev 8:12,13
Fifth trumpet Rev 9:1-12
Second woe
Sixth trumpet Rev 9:13 through 11:14
Third woe
Seventh trumpet Rev 11:15 through Rev 20:15 (seventh trumpet includes all the events that unfold and ends with the great white throne judgment)

Amen
Rev.12:12
WOE to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! For the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth he hath but a short time.

Mark 13:20
And except that the LORD had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved, but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.

 

[dianegcook]

i am a pretribber based on the fact that:
1. the antichrist can not be revealed until HE who holds him back is taken out of the way - 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
2. we are promised that the Holy Spirit will never leave us so if He is taken out of the way we must go with Him - John 14:16
3. we are not appointed to suffer wrath - 1 Thessalonians 5:9

i have friends who are mid and post tribbers - that is fine with me - it's not something that impacts how i live - i spend my time getting stronger in relationship with God so what ever time the rapture happens will not change my pursuit of God

i have a pastor friend who says that there are actually 3 raptures - so could be we are all correct

I believe it is Michael that holds Satan, then eventually boots him out of heaven. Rev.12:7-13.
2Thess.2:3, that day (gathering) shall not come until that man of sin be revealed...so my opinion AFTER the antichrist be revealed.
Sitting in the temple of God claiming to be God. Verse 4

Only he, ( I believe Michael) letteth will let, until he (Satan) be taken out of the way...Verse 7 , subject being Satan sitting in the temple of God claiming to be God.

And then that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume, and shall destroy with the brightness of HIS COMING.

As stated in 2Thess.2:3 that the gathering does not take place, until Satan is revealed.

2Thess.2:1,2
Subject, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering...
Don;t be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor BY LETTER as FROM US....
I believe referring to 1Thess.4:14-17
1Cor.15:50-54

 

[dianegcook]

First John 2:18
John said there were "many antichrists" even in his own time.

Anti christ, in the Strong's Concordance it is #500 Greek, meaning an opponent of the Messiah, from #473 which can mean INSTEAD of. Instead of Christ...

 

[Anto9us2]

Daniel 12:1 says "at that time Michael will STAND UP"
Some thinks that means:
Stand up out of the way

Michael is possible as THE RESTRAINER ( he who letteth )
PREtribbers think Holy Ghost is RESTRAINER

Paul seemed to think the Thessalonians KNEW who it was

 

[dianegcook]

The great battle of God almighty.
The bowl judgments are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness.

The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

yes, one that stays awake and remain clothed.
A watchman should stay awake and keep his wedding garment, be like the 5 wise virgins.
Rev.6:15,16 HID themselves, wishing the rocks would fall on them, want to hide themselves because of shame...like Adam and Eve....

2Peter 3:10-12
But the day of the Lord will COME AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT, in which the heavens shall pass away..earth also and the WORKS that are therein.

 

[Edward]

I'm getting the feeling that I should spend some time studying this some more. It is clear to me that pre trib is not the truth. But a very good case is being made by respected Brothers & Sisters who I pretty much always agree with and they disagree with me on this. I do not take that lightly.

 

[for_his_glory]

I can only comment on what I know to be for sure.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


To me this should be a solid foundation of understanding that we can build our end time theology on.


The resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.

This is further emphasized again in 1 Corinthians-

• afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23


To me, the phrase “those who are Christ’s”, settles it.


The gathering of all His people, those who are His, will take place at His coming.




JLB

I can be a stickler at times as I think it would be better to use the words of scripture, instead of calling it a rapture which is not found in scripture nor does the definition call it the catching up of the saints as we need to use the words that are found as it is called being caught up as in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Definition of rapture: a feeling of intense pleasure or joy

Although it will be an intense pleasure and joy when we are caught up to Jesus on the last day when He returns as by the brightness of His coming, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, He will cast alive the beast and its false prophet into the lake of fire as He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather His own to Him, Matthew 24:29-31.

 

[for_his_glory]

I believe it is Michael that holds Satan, then eventually boots him out of heaven. Rev.12:7-13.
2Thess.2:3, that day (gathering) shall not come until that man of sin be revealed...so my opinion AFTER the antichrist be revealed.
Sitting in the temple of God claiming to be God. Verse 4

Only he, ( I believe Michael) letteth will let, until he (Satan) be taken out of the way...Verse 7 , subject being Satan sitting in the temple of God claiming to be God.

And then that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume, and shall destroy with the brightness of HIS COMING.

As stated in 2Thess.2:3 that the gathering does not take place, until Satan is revealed.

2Thess.2:1,2
Subject, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering...
Don;t be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor BY LETTER as FROM US....
I believe referring to 1Thess.4:14-17
1Cor.15:50-54

I think you might be right about it being Michael that holds Satan back for now as it is he that letteth will let when God gives the command to Michael to war against Satan as Satan is cast out into the earth knowing his time is short. We have to remember Satan is a fallen angel that is spirit, not flesh and blood so he has to work his iniquity through others here on earth.

Rev 13 the beast out of the sea who gained its power in 1534, which I call a Luciferian system of military, political, economic, educational and false religious power that I can not name in here that gives its power to the beast out of the earth being the false prophet (son of perdition) can not do anything until Satan is cast out into the earth and gives final power to the beast until it be taken out of the way when Christ returns and by the brightness of His coming takes the beast and false prophet alive and cast them into the lake of fire, 2 Thessalonians 2:8; Rev 19:11-21.

 

[for_his_glory]

Daniel 12:1 says "at that time Michael will STAND UP"
Some thinks that means:
Stand up out of the way

Michael is possible as THE RESTRAINER ( he who letteth )
PREtribbers think Holy Ghost is RESTRAINER

Paul seemed to think the Thessalonians KNEW who it was

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The time of trouble is the 3 1/2 years of the beast and its false prophet. At the end we will be delivered.

Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

We are to hide ourselves from this time of trouble when the son of perdition takes his seat on the Holy mount in Jerusalem claiming he is God making all to take the mark of this beast or die a martyr's death.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

I understand the 1290 days, but need to do a study on what the 1335 days are as all I have seen on that is someone saying that it is 45 more days after the 1290 days that is the timing of the seven vial judgements and the destruction of mystery Babylon. I'm sure it will be a good study as I do like a good challenge.

 

[JLB]

I can be a stickler at times as I think it would be better to use the words of scripture, instead of calling it a rapture which is not found in scripture nor does the definition call it the catching up of the saints as we need to use the words that are found as it is called being caught up as in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Definition of rapture: a feeling of intense pleasure or joy

Although it will be an intense pleasure and joy when we are caught up to Jesus on the last day when He returns as by the brightness of His coming, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, He will cast alive the beast and its false prophet into the lake of fire as He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather His own to Him, Matthew 24:29-31.

I agree that we should stick to biblical words in out posts, as I have stated this numerous times.


However, is this particular topic, I wanted to use the term that everyone is familiar with, so as to not distract from the point I was making.


If we can all agree that the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming, then most everything else about end time eschatology will begin to fall in place.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


Paul states that we who are alive and remain (rapture) until the
“Coming” of the Lord, will not come before the resurrection.


They both (resurrection and rapture) will occur at His coming, beginning with the resurrection and just afterward the rapture.



Do you agree with this statement?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Definition of rapture: a feeling of intense pleasure or joy

What name would you like to label it?

The catching away?

I’ll use whatever name you want, when addressing you if you tell what that is.



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

What name would you like to label it?

The catching away?

I’ll use whatever name you want, when addressing you if you tell what that is.



JLB

I label nothing that is not already been written. You are the one who says we are to teach the doctrines of Christ and I agree with that so if we are not using the very words that have been already written then we are adding to that which was written as certain words can change the whole meaning of what has been written.

My focus in this thread is to help teach others there is no pretrib rapture as it is not found in the scriptures. The proper word in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is caught up and that is the word we need to be teaching as rapture has nothing to do with being caught up to Christ.

 

[for_his_glory]

I agree that we should stick to biblical words in out posts, as I have stated this numerous times.


However, is this particular topic, I wanted to use the term that everyone is familiar with, so as to not distract from the point I was making.


If we can all agree that the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming, then most everything else about end time eschatology will begin to fall in place.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


Paul states that we who are alive and remain (rapture) until the
“Coming” of the Lord, will not come before the resurrection.


They both (resurrection and rapture) will occur at His coming, beginning with the resurrection and just afterward the rapture.



Do you agree with this statement?



JLB

There is the problem, using words that are familiar to people, but not found in scripture. That can be dangerous territory as per our learning, especially when many are taught that Jesus returns before the tribulation of those days yet future.

The resurrection of the dead is the catching up of the saints as at that time all who are alive at His coming and asleep in their graves will all be caught up to the clouds to meet Jesus in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18. The word rapture does not belong there even if you put parenthesis around it.

 

[JLB]

There is the problem, using words that are familiar to people, but not found in scripture. That can be dangerous territory as per our learning, especially when many are taught that Jesus returns before the tribulation of those days yet future.

Again, I agree 100 %.

I even went so far to dedicate a thread to “Definng and Understanding” biblical words and terms.

As I said, I will use whatever term you like in our discussions when I address you.

What name would you like to label it?

The catching away?

I’ll use whatever name you want, when addressing you if you tell what that is.



JLB

 

[JLB]

The resurrection of the dead is the catching up of the saints as at that time all who are alive at His coming and asleep in their graves will all be caught up to the clouds to meet Jesus in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18. The word rapture does not belong there even if you put parenthesis around it.

The word rapture is used to describe the event of the living being caught up together with the dead in Christ.


Just because someone uses the word Rapture, doesn’t mean they believe in the “pre-trib” rapture.


Again, please let me know how you would like to define it.




JLB

 

[JLB]

The resurrection of the dead is the catching up of the saints as at that time all who are alive at His coming and asleep in their graves

Could you clarify what you yourself mean by “alsleep” in their graves?


Some people teach that the dead in Christ, are asleep in the grave and not in heaven.




JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Again, I agree 100 %.

I even went so far to dedicate a thread to “Definng and Understanding” biblical words and terms.

As I said, I will use whatever term you like in our discussions when I address you.

What name would you like to label it?

The catching away?

I’ll use whatever name you want, when addressing you if you tell what that is.



JLB

Why put a label on it or use any other words when scripture already calls it caught up so let's call it caught up.

 

[for_his_glory]

The word rapture is used to describe the event of the living being caught up together with the dead in Christ.


Just because someone uses the word Rapture, doesn’t mean they believe in the “pre-trib” rapture.


Again, please let me know how you would like to define it.




JLB

I already gave the definition of the word rapture as it means intense pleasure or joy.

When does this time of intense pleasure and joy happen is what is wrongly taught as this will cause many to fall away from Christ when they see God's wrath starting to be poured out into the world. This will also lead them to take the mark of the beast.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[for_his_glory]

Could you clarify what you yourself mean by “alsleep” in their graves?


Some people teach that the dead in Christ, are asleep in the grave and not in heaven.




JLB

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

It is only our breath/spirit that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body dies and returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

 

[dianegcook]

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

It is only our breath/spirit that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body dies and returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

I believe asleep means rest...
We rest in Jesus, He is Our rest, as the Sabbath rest.
Heb.4:5

In 1 Thess.4:14
Those who sleeps IN JESUS, will GOD BRING WITH HIM...
My belief then is they are already there.

Mark 13:27
Then shall He send His angels, and shall gather His Elect..from the UTTERMOST Part OF THE EARTH to the UTTERMOST Part of HEAVEN....