Prosecuted for a hate crime instead of murder….scary

[Milk-Drops]

The US has become scary. Since you are from England, you probably know about the 100+ ministers who wrote to Johnson declaring that they were not going to close their doors in Covid times. Boris did not know what to do, probably not wanting to take on the church united, so the government opened up the whole country to everyone. To me it was like BIBle courage as in Daniel and won a blessing for the land. I am proud of my British brethren who stood up to the government. A few in the US did not but most bowed down and closed their churches. Rolled up their arms and when the government said, "be afraid" they obediently were afraid. My compliments to your clergy!!!

To be fair, where I live the pastors were afraid as the government told them to be and taught their congregation to be afraid. "We must obey men rather than God" was their position.

Most states also gVe resources to churches to continue or start streaming their services and also allowed for open air worship.

 

[Milk-Drops]

If you are lucky enough to have your case presented there although by then you have suffered injustice so long it doesn't mean as much to you personally.

The case already happened and the court ruled on the side of religous liberty.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The case already happened and the court ruled on the side of religous liberty.

For one person. Do you really think that the Supreme Court deciding for one man means the whole nation will now observe legal liberty?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Most states also gVe resources to churches to continue or start streaming their services and also allowed for open air worship.

What happened to separation of church and state? You need to provide strong evidence for this because I don’t believe it. You’re the evidence requiring man, why not supply the same as you demand.

In any case, they feared man rather than God.

 

[D-D-W]

To be fair, where I live the pastors were afraid as the government told them to be and taught their congregation to be afraid. "We must obey men rather than God" was their position.

PLEASE stop misusing that scripture.

I know of no one who credibly claims GOD Himself spoke to those pastors and said "Keep your church doors open." In the case in Acts 5.39 where Peter said that, Our Lord had specifically told them (Acts 1.8) to proclaim His teachings IN JERUSALEM.

That same Peter, during the rule of Nero, a total madman, instructed the believers this way:

1 Peter 2:13
Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.

Unless God has credibly spoken to a specific situation CONTRARY to what the civil authorities are saying, or their instructions clearly violate a specific command of scripture, we are instructed to obey them. And Paul also agreed with Peter:

Romans 13:1
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

PLEASE stop misusing that scripture.

I’m not. Why do you think i am? That’s what the disciples said when their authorities demanded they stop.

I know of no one who credibly claims GOD Himself spoke to those pastors and said "Keep your church doors open."

Do you really think God has to tell pastors “please do not close my house of prayer?” They need specific directions to do the job their called to and paid for?

In the case in Acts 5.39 where Peter said that, Our Lord had specifically told them (Acts 1.8) to proclaim His teachings IN JERUSALEM.

So you think that doesn’t apply elsewhere? Jesus says for all eternity, “if you deny me before men, I’ll deny you before God.” Did God tell Daniels friends specifically not to bow down? Did God tell Daniel personally not to stop praying?

That same Peter, during the rule of Nero, a total madman, instructed the believers this way:

1 Peter 2:13
Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.

Uh, when the law of man violates the law of God, one must choose. A blessing came in England for obeying God. The whole land dropped tyranny.

Unless God has credibly spoken to a specific situation CONTRARY to what the civil authorities are saying, or their instructions clearly violate a specific command of scripture, we are instructed to obey them. And Paul also agreed with Peter:

Romans 13:1
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

If believers had listened to you, there’d be slavery still. I suppose you label all those who hid Jews in Ww2 Germany as law breakers deserving the death they got for that.

Any pastor that teaches his congregation to fear, does NOT hear Gods voice at all. I repeat. Any pastor that bowed down to fear either man or a virus cannot hear from God.

I heard a prophet share in Spring of 2020 saying God had told him “it’s time to stop being afraid.” He obeyed and says that courage and peace flooded into him and what is more, he was able to ask God what was really happening behind the propaganda and got answers that fit perfectly. It was remarkable. Those who loved their lives or even health more than God and more than their brethren will receive no help from God. The fearful are condemned in Revelation and elsewhere.

Hebrews 10:38 My righteous one will live by faith (not fear) and if he shrinks back (out of fear), my soul has no pleasure in him.”

 

[D-D-W]

I’m not. Why do you think i am? That’s what the disciples said when their authorities demanded they stop.

Do you really think God has to tell pastors “please do not close my house of prayer?” They need specific directions to do the job their called to and paid for?

So you think that doesn’t apply elsewhere? Jesus says for all eternity, “if you deny me before men, I’ll deny you before God.” Did God tell Daniels friends specifically not to bow down? Did God tell Daniel personally not to stop praying?

Uh, when the law of man violates the law of God, one must choose. A blessing came in England for obeying God. The whole land dropped tyranny.

If believers had listened to you, there’d be slavery still. I suppose you label all those who hid Jews in Ww2 Germany as law breakers deserving the death they got for that.

Any pastor that teaches his congregation to fear, does NOT hear Gods voice at all. I repeat. Any pastor that bowed down to fear either man or a virus cannot hear from God.

I heard a prophet share in Spring of 2020 saying God had told him “it’s time to stop being afraid.” He obeyed and says that courage and peace flooded into him and what is more, he was able to ask God what was really happening behind the propaganda and got answers that fit perfectly. It was remarkable. Those who loved their lives or even health more than God and more than their brethren will receive no help from God. The fearful are condemned in Revelation and elsewhere.

Hebrews 10:38 My righteous one will live by faith (not fear) and if he shrinks back (out of fear), my soul has no pleasure in him.”

I come to you with actual scripture. You come with human logic.

Peter and Paul are both clear: obey the civil authorities, unless it causes you to violate a specific scripture.

Where does the Bible say the doors of a church building need to be open in order to share the gospel?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I come to you with actual scripture. You come with human logic.

You think God’s logic is unreasonable. What scripture do you want? Many here post scripture that has nothing to do with their position, nothing at all.

Peter and Paul are both clear: obey the civil authorities, unless it causes you to violate a specific scripture.

Jesus said God’s house shall be a house of prayer for all nations. Shutting it down violates that.

Where does the Bible say the doors of a church building need to be open in order to share the gospel?

The scripture say to gather together and do not forsake this. Pastors who refused to honor God’s scripture by shutting down their church violated this scripture. You need more?

 

[D-D-W]

You think God’s logic is unreasonable. What scripture do you want? Many here post scripture that has nothing to do with their position, nothing at all.

God has his own logic and it is different than the western pagan (Aristotelian) logic we are used to.

Jesus said God’s house shall be a house of prayer for all nations. Shutting it down violates that.

Your church building is NOT the Temple of God in Jerusalem. That was what our Lord was referring to. If you do not believe me, look up the scripture He was quoting.

The scripture say to gather together and do not forsake this. Pastors who refused to honor God’s scripture by shutting down their church violated this scripture. You need more?

Again, at the time that was written, people gathered in homes. Nothing in the legal decree stopped people from meeting in homes.

My congregation met in homes and we started streaming services over the internet. We both complied with the civil laws AND kept obedient to gather and share the gosple.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You did in that post. That's what was so funny about it. You expect everyone to believe your conspiracy theories without question. Sorry, I'm no longer buying.

You refuse testimony after testimony of US violation of rights and call it’s conspiracy theory. I guess the Germans called rounding up the Jews just conspiracy theories too.

God has his own logic and it is different than the western pagan (Aristotelian) logic we are used to.

Come let us reason together He said. No word about there being a difference. There isn’t one. Solomon used God’s logic. Don’t we nevertheless understand it? Jesus used God’s logic. Does that mean we don’t understand it?

Your church building is NOT the Temple of God in Jerusalem. That was what our Lord was referring to.

True, no US church is in Jerusalem. (Your answer is just as silly.)

If you do not believe me, look up the scripture He was quoting.

I did. The house of God must be a house of prayer for all nations. You think that ended in 70AD?

Again, at the time that was written, people gathered in homes. Nothing in the legal decree stopped people from meeting in homes.

Until they were dragged out of them and stoned to death. Still they met not living their lives more than they loved God, even if it resulted in their death. You need scripture for that or does it ring a bell?

My congregation met in homes and we started streaming services over the internet. We both complied with the civil laws AND kept obedient to gather and share the gosple.

A closed circle for insiders. Meeting in homes with more than a handful was illegal in many places, but I don’t know your regs. More than 10 and publicly announced so unbelievers wanting know about Jesus could join?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

D-D-W, maybe you’re a pastor so this is kind of close to home. I cannot know what God would have wanted you to do as situations are different. I observed outcomes of some choices. Men in leadership made choices and that reaped very different outcomes. The Brits stood together and won a way of out tyranny including no vaccine mandates to earn a living. That was due to the pastoral leadership.

I watched the German pastors not only support the government but offer their churches as shot centers. That nation is very dark today. There is a hatred allowed to spread that is very scary. The pastors complied and the Enemy owns the nation now in a different way.

The Swiss pastors refused to stand in opposition to the closing churches except to online members, which is NOT meeting. However, the political leaders, the only ones in the west that I heard of, announced that they refused to mandate shots as it goes against human rights. The politicians had the courage, not the christians.

The church we attended taught the congregation to fear (called it wisdom) and encouraged behaviour that was basically rejecting your brethren, with, no joke, such fear in faces that you’d think the other has small pox. What came out if it was an inability to pass a greater test later and an inability to endure with grace and peace that could have been shared, had the pastors had it themselves. Our church became a club where their mouths speak praise but the hearts are far from Him. The anointing that was there is gone. Sermons even accuse God of less than honor. They failed at the test and the courage they could have gained wasn’t there when needed and believers were damaged.

The christians in the first century loved their lives not even if it meant death. As a result they were granted power. God could trust them. Men and women who bow to the ungodly lest they might experience unpleasantness, He cannot trust. No authority is given.

 

[D-D-W]

Come let us reason together He said. No word about there being a difference. There isn’t one. Solomon used God’s logic. Don’t we nevertheless understand it? Jesus used God’s logic. Does that mean we don’t understand it?

1 - Aristotle had not been born when Isaiah penned those words.
2 - The logic we know was formulated by Aristotle - a pagan idol worshiper.

I could go on and on about the many differences between Aristotelian (inductive, deductive) logic and Hebraic (adductive, block) logic (the logic of the Bible) but that would seriously derail this thread.

True, no US church is in Jerusalem. (Your answer is just as silly.)
I did. The house of God must be a house of prayer for all nations. You think that ended in 70AD?

When the bible refers to the "House of God" it is talking about the Temple. And yes, that ended in 70 ad.
But as our Lord said:

John 4:20
Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.” 21 Jesus *said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

1 - Aristotle had not been born when Isaiah penned those words.
2 - The logic we know was formulated by Aristotle - a pagan idol worshiper.

The logic penned by the Bible writers is astounding to us. We understand it and it’s perfect to our thinking. Do you think God is limited in his understanding of logic and Aristotle knew more?

I could go on and on about the many differences between Aristotelian (inductive, deductive) logic and Hebraic (adductive, block) logic (the logic of the Bible) but that would seriously derail this thread.

I agree and maybe you need to start a thread without the technical terms do we can test if your position is true. What if God used all the kinds of logic there are? I suggest you present a situation with examples of how the different approaches (logic) would arrive at a conclusion.

When the bible refers to the "House of God" it is talking about the Temple. And yes, that ended in 70 ad.

Wow! Explains your position. There is no house of prayer for anyone on earth any more in your view. How sad! The Devil eliminated Gods house of prayer on the whole planet.

But as our Lord said:

John 4:20
Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.” 21 Jesus *said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Did Jesus say WHERE this location is? You seem to think it’s no where so I’m curious.

 

[D-D-W]

The logic penned by the Bible writers is astounding to us. We understand it and it’s perfect to our thinking. Do you think God is limited in his understanding of logic and Aristotle knew more?

Absolutely NOT. Aristotle understood things from an entirely earthly physical plane. The Logic of the Bible goes beyond that to allow for things to be simultaneously true that could not be allowed under Aristotelian logic.

I agree and maybe you need to start a thread without the technical terms do we can test if your position is true. What if God used all the kinds of logic there are? I suggest you present a situation with examples of how the different approaches (logic) would arrive at a conclusion.

I have started a couple of threads (maybe on a different forum) on Hebrew Block Logic vs Aristotle's western logic.

Did Jesus say WHERE this location is? You seem to think it’s no where so I’m curious.

He did not and that is on purpose. Paul said our own bodies were the Temple of the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 3 and 1 Cor 6. That means the Temple is where ever we happen to be.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Absolutely NOT. Aristotle understood things from an entirely earthly physical plane. The Logic of the Bible goes beyond that to allow for things to be simultaneously true that could not be allowed under Aristotelian logic.

You mean from a pagan or atheistic view which isn’t a matter of logic but information. Logic is a tool to one to understanding. It isn’t understanding itself. So Aristotle was missing information.

But let me ask you, can you give a example of how his logic would have differed from God’s? The thread is about governments making illogical decisions in violation of its own laws. You can keep it there if you want.

I have started a couple of threads (maybe on a different forum) on Hebrew Block Logic vs Aristotle's western logic.

You should be able to easily provide examples then.

He did not and that is on purpose. Paul said our own bodies were the Temple of the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 3 and 1 Cor 6. That means the Temple is where ever we happen to be.

So there is no place where unbelievers can go to pray? They are out of luck. Can I assume you are opposed to the HOP movement?

How do you defend the refusal to follow the clear injunction not to fail to meet together? This clearly was violated by many as it wasn’t allowed to have many beyond the residents meet and if they were more then a few, not allowed at all. Closing churches meant that many did not meet together. Pastors did not provide a place for many to meet together to pray and worship. Online isn’t coming together.

 

[Milk-Drops]

What happened to separation of church and state? You need to provide strong evidence for this because I don’t believe it. You’re the evidence requiring man, why not supply the same as you demand.

In any case, they feared man rather than God.

Religious Groups Received $6-10 Billion In COVID-19 Relief Funds, Hope For More

More than 400 evangelical churches and ministries each received forgivable loans worth at least $1 million.

www.npr.org

 

[Milk-Drops]

For one person. Do you really think that the Supreme Court deciding for one man means the whole nation will now observe legal liberty?

It's called case law. The precident is set so now it's s viable defence when challenged.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Religious Groups Received $6-10 Billion In COVID-19 Relief Funds, Hope For More

More than 400 evangelical churches and ministries each received forgivable loans worth at least $1 million.

www.npr.org

I stand corrected.

I wonder if the anti-discrimination laws can then be applied whereby organizations receiving government funding cannot refuse employment based on sexual orientation. If a man gets into the church leadership or even applies and says he practices other than God appointed limits in his sexual partners, they can be sued if they refuse him. They can’t even correct him or say a single word. So a deeply immoral person can take over these churches and there’s nothing the church can do. If that leader’s liaisons aren’t under age, they’re stuck. I know a pastor who had an affair with his secretary (married.) They fired him. For these churches, no way. They sold themselves.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It's called case law. The precident is set so now it's s viable defence when challenged.

Only if it goes to court. Do you really think that the Supreme Court rulings change how people individually behave? Besides, ten years later they can reverse. It’s called reality.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

D-D-W, I’m listening to Derek Prince who studied philosophy and taught on University level, I believe and he just said although he had studied all the philosophies, he found them inadequate. But when he found the Lord and started reading the Bible, he saw that the Bible is completely logical. “It made sense and it (went) on doing that for 50 years.” He was a professional logician. He loved Plato and the ancient philosophers but found the logic of the Bible vastly superior making SENSE finally.