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Prosperity Gospel Believers

Lewis

Member
Atlanta The arrest of Georgia megachurch pastor Creflo Dollar brought renewed attention to his message of the Prosperity Gospel, controversial to some and faith-fulfilling to its followers.
Dollar, who was arrested last week after allegedly assaulting his teenage daughter, is the founder and pastor of World Changers Church International in suburban Atlanta.
It claims about 30,000 members and has a multimillion-dollar sanctuary that resembles a golden-domed spaceship atop a hill.


Prosperity ministers preach that God rewards the faithful with wealth and spiritual gifts. Pastors such as T.D. Jakes, Dollar, and Joel Osteen have become the Prosperity Gospel's most well known preachers, building megachurches and business empires with a message equating piety with prosperity.
CNN's Belief Blog: the faith angles behind the big stories


While popular in the black church, it is not a solely black phenomenon, as seen in the ministry of Osteen, a best-selling author and megapastor at Lakewood Church in Houston. The church website says it is considered to be the largest church in America, with more than 38,000 attendees.
The Prosperity Gospel is a form of evangelical Christianity that largely grew out of the booming economy of postwar America, says Jonathan Walton, a professor of Christian Morals at Harvard and author of "Watch This! Televangelism and African



American Religious Culture."
The theology's emphasis is on God's promised generosity in this life and the ability of believers to claim it for themselves. If God loves us, it teaches, then God will reward us with a new home, a good job, or good health, Walton says. God wants us to be prosperous.


Megachurch pastor Creflo Dollar on his daughter: 'She was not punched'
One of the problems that conservatives tend to have with prosperity theology is its focus on material prosperity, says Ben Phillips, a theology professor at the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Houston.
"The Prosperity Gospel tends to mask the greatest need that any individual has, and that's to be reconciled to God through faith in Christ," Phillips says.


"The point is that God is the ultimate good," he continues. "Knowing Him, being in a relationship with Him ... in which He is God and we are His creatures, that is where joy is found."
Believers may argue, however, that material wealth is evidence of being in covenant with God, says Michael Long, a teacher of religious studies at Elizabethtown College and editor of the book, "I Must Resist: Bayard Rustin's Life in Letters."


Those believers might say material goods are a side effect of believing in God and Christ, he says. "The focus is on getting right with God, but you know that when you get right with God, you're going to get something for it."
While the theology may attract more followers in a time of economic boom, the fact that it focuses so much on the individual and controlling one's own heart is a comfort in tough economic times as well, Long says.


Tom Brown, senior pastor of the Word of Life Church in El Paso, Texas, says wealth and prosperity are what God desires for us.
"Just as any parent enjoys watching their kids have fun, God delights in watching His children enjoy what money can buy," Brown writes on the website for his ministry. "I believe God is love and He desires the best life we can have."
Believers must then use their wealth to help others, Brown says - and that to have money for its own sake is pointless.


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Phillips says it's true that the Bible teaches Christians to care for the poor, sick and needy, "but the Bible also teaches that God uses and permits suffering in the lives of people for His own ends and purposes."
He points to the Book of James, which says we must value the trials in our life because they shape our character.


"Believers in humble circumstances ought to take pride in their high position. But the rich should take pride in their humiliation - since they will pass away like a wild flower," it says in James 1:9-10.
Critics may say prosperity followers are wrong, but believers say they are sincere, Walton says. The pastors may be pop culture celebrities, but it doesn't mean their congregations don't find fulfillment in the message.


The pastors' wealth, derided by some as evidence of hypocrisy, could also simply be seen as evidence of their faith, Walton says.
"The wealth is part of their authority," he says.
CNN
 
OK --- first of all, I'm not going to comment on the incident that went on with his daughter. That's another topic for another thread that's there already. It's irrelevant.

As for prosperity gospel, I'm against it merely for the sake of equating prosperity with spirituality, or as a reward for spirituality. It's like the cholesterol and heart disease controversy. People assume association with causation while going to one extreme or the other and defending their beliefs. Simply put, riches does not prove spirituality, and lack thereof does not prove one is slipping spiritually and is not spiritual enough.

That said, there is a biblical association of God's people with wealth. Since wealth is a physical thing, it goes along with the earthly blessings God promised his people in the birthright. Actually it's a promise to Abraham as going to his kids, regardless of how the kids acted, were chosen in this way. As for the covenant with Israel, the Law promised material blessings if one followed God's Commands and it's a combination of showing that God's ways (government) works as well as allowing them to enjoy their birthright. You see, they already had the birthright (because it was promised to Abraham), but enjoyment of that was contingent on their part to obedience, and it shown as a witness to a fallen world that God's ways work. Again, this is not to merely reward the people "for being good children" as I started out by saying above.

In the New Testament times, even Gentiles are "fellow heirs" and children of Abraham, and by extension the same blessings. However, we must be careful. Not everyone may be called to riches here in this life. Will they ever get any? Sure, one day when they rule and reign with Christ when the Lord God quotes to the believer ruling with Christ Psalm 2:

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
<sup class="versenum">9</sup>Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.


That's pretty intense promises!


So yes, there is definitely an association, and what he's saying is a half truth. However, I get the feeling his reason is messed up --- it's not for a hedonistic reason so that:

"Just as any parent enjoys watching their kids have fun, God delights in watching His children enjoy what money can buy..."

That's not only hedonistic, that's spiritually infantile and totally misunderstanding God's purpose.
 
I posted it, not for that incident with his daughter, but because of the prosperity part of the article.
 
I posted it, not for that incident with his daughter, but because of the prosperity part of the article.

And I answered it. I just mentioned the "daughter part" disclaimer because there may be a few here that judges his theology on what supposedly happened with his daughter. That's a cop-out disclaiming a person's theology on that. I don't care if a preacher is a pimp --- the action does not have anything to do with his theology. I look at the message, not the messenger. We all have to understand, even Lucifer can preach truth unto the salvation of people.
 
I am so tired of all these prosperity messages given by those who you have to actually buy a ticket to go hear them preach. Gods word should be freely given and freely received. Would someone please show me in scripture where wealth from God is monetary gain, because maybe I am missing something here as all I can see is that God shall supply my needs, not my wants.

I know we are to take care of the needs of the Pastor so they can concentrate on the Spiritual needs of the flock, but all this garbage about give till it hurts, or give everything you have to the ministry and God will bless it back 100 fold. If this were true then why are so many that give all end up having nothing themselves. I believe you give from your heart and not from what others tell you that you need to give. Give 100 get 200 back.....ya, right!

God is not a genie in a lamp that you can wish on and have great monetary wealth as our wealth is that of having a roof over our head, food in our belly, clothes on our back and be able to help our neighbors who are less fortunate than yourself. I will lay my treasure up in heaven as what is on the earth will perish.

Philippians 4:10-19

10 But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity.

11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

14 Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction.

15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.

16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.

17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.

18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.

19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
 
Jim Bakker: Prosperity Gospel is Wrong

This is from Jim Bakker’s book, "I Was Wrong." (I edited it down to a manageable size). There’s always hope that true believers will see the error of teaching greed and love of money. It happened for Bakker when he was in prison. Rich Witmer et al. should take note … It’s a bit long but I thought it was an interesting "from the horse’s mouth" account against prosperity teachings:
“…During my time at F.M.C. Rochester, I observed something that it seemed to me had gotten nearly every inmate into trouble. It was something insidious, pervasive, something that I too had tried to cover and push aside in my own life—the love of money…
About the time of my parole hearing, I completed my study of all the words of Jesus in the New Testament. To my surprise, after months of studying Jesus, I concluded that He did not have one good thing to say about money. Most of Jesus’ statements about riches, wealth, and material gain were in a negative context…

I was amazed at this “new” revelation, but beyond that, I was deeply concerned. As the true impact of Jesus’ words regarding money impacted my heart and mind, I became physically nauseated. I was wrong. I was wrong! Wrong in my lifestyle, certainly, but even more fundamentally, wrong in my understanding of the Bible’s true message. Not only was I wrong, but I was teaching the opposite of what Jesus had said. That is what broke my heart; when I came to the awareness that I had actually been contradicting Christ, I was horrified.
For years I had embraced and espoused a gospel that some skeptics had branded as a “prosperity gospel.” I didn’t mind the label; on the contrary, I was proud of it. “You’re absolutely right!” I’d say to critics and friends alike. “I preach it and live it! I believe in a God who wants to bless His people. Look at all the rich saints in the Old Testament. And the New Testament clearly says that above all, God wants us to prosper even as our souls prosper. If your soul is prospering, you should be prospering materially as well!”…
…when I began to study the Scriptures in depth while in prison… I was very distressed at what I discovered.
I realized that for years I helped propagate an impostor, not a true gospel, but another gospel—a gospel that stated “God wants you to be rich!” Christians should have the best because we are children of God, “King’s kids,” as I often put it. And shouldn’t the King’s kids have the best this world had to offer?

The more I studied the Bible, however, I had to admit that the prosperity message did not line up with the tenor of Scripture. My heart was crushed to think that I led so many people astray. I was appalled that I could have been so wrong, and I was deeply grateful that God had not struck me dead as a false prophet!
How could I have taught and even written books on the subject of “how to get rich” when Jesus spoke so clearly about the dangers of earthly riches?
One of the statements of Jesus that kept echoing in my head and heart was in the parable of the sower, where Jesus said that “the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful” (Mark 4:19). The deceitfulness of riches. The more I thought about it, the more I had to admit that I had fallen into that snare. I had allowed the quest for material possessions and the deceitfulness of riches and the lusts for other things to choke the Word of God in my own life and in the lives of my family members and coworkers. As PTL grew larger and our ministry more widespread, I had a financial tiger by the tail, and just coming up with enough money to meet the daily budgets dominated my thoughts and my time.
In prison, I decided to dig into the Scriptures further to see what else Jesus had to say about money. I noticed that He said, Do not store up for yourself treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

(Matt. 6:19-21 NIV)
Another Scripture that seared into my heart was Matthew 6:24, “No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money” (NIV). In that same passage, I discovered that God’s priorities were much different from what mine had been.
Jesus said, Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? . . .So do not worry, saying, “What shall we eat?” or “What shall we drink?” or “What shall we wear?” For the pagans run after all these things and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. (Matt. 6:25, 31-33 NIV)
Other teachings of Jesus scored direct hits upon my heart, as well: “But woe to you who are rich, / for you have already received your comfort” (Luke 6:24 NIV).

“Then Jesus said to his disciples, ‘If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me’” (Matt. 16:24 NIV). This verse dramatically illustrated the stark contrast between what Jesus taught and what I had been teaching. I had taught that Christians could have the best of both worlds, the best that this world had to offer and heaven too. Jesus said, “Deny yourself”
Jesus taught, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God” (Luke 18:24 NIV). Unwittingly, I had tried to explain this verse away with the help of modern scholarship. I had taught people that the “eye of the needle” of which Jesus spoke was a low arch in the Holy Land. Supposedly, a camel carrying a heavy load had to get down on its knees to slip through the “eye of the needle.” This was the explanation that I had heard from other prosperity teachers whom I admired and respected, so I simply passed on their explanation as fact without really examining the verse carefully, especially in the original Greek. Nor had I consulted any Bible dictionaries or encyclopedias. If I had done so, I might have found that not a shred of reputable archeological or historical evidence supports the camel-through-the-arch theory.

In prison, however, when I took time to study the meaning of Jesus’ words in the original Greek language, I discovered that Jesus was not talking about camels walking on their knees at all. The word He used was one commonly used to describe a sewing needle, not an archway. In other words, the verse meant exactly what it said: It may not be impossible for a rich man to enter heaven, but apart from a miracle of God, he doesn’t stand a chance!
In my cell, I studied the Bible long hours into the night. Often as the sun rose in the eastern sky, I was still poring over the Scriptures. The more I studied, the more I had to face the awful truth: I had been preaching false doctrine for years and hadn’t even known it!
 
Jim Bakker: Prosperity Gospel is Wrong

Tragically, too late, I recognized that at PTL I had been doing just the opposite of Jesus’ words by teaching people to fall in love with money. Jesus never equated His blessings with material things, but I had done just that. I had laid so much emphasis upon material things, I was subtly encouraging people to put their hearts into things, rather than into Jesus…
…I knew the verse well. It had been my favorite “prosperity verse” for years; it was the premier New Testament verse upon which I had built my prosperity message and lifestyle. The verse reads: “Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth” (kjv).

I had preached on this verse for most of my ministry. It said exactly what I believed—that God wanted His people to prosper, and by that, I interpreted it to mean prosper financially and materially, in other words, to get rich. Again, I never really examined the true meaning of the text, nor did I ever seriously consider why this verse, on the surface anyhow, seemed to contradict so much of what the New Testament said in other places. I simply pulled this verse out of context and took it to the bank—literally!..
The apostle John, the writer, was saying simply, “I wish you a good, safe and healthy journey throughout your life, even as your soul has a good and safe journey to heaven.” John was not saying “Above everything else, I want you to get rich. Above everything, you should prosper and make money.” That is not even implied in the true meaning of the verse. Yet I had based much of my philosophy at PTL and even before that on this one verse that I had totally misunderstood!

Romans 1:10. The apostle Paul wrote, “Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you” (kjv). Paul often took special care to make sure that his motivation could not be misconstrued or maligned because of money. It would be unthinkable for the apostle to say, “Please pray for me that somehow or other I might obtain wealth by coming to preach to you,” or “Please pray that I will make a lot of money on this trip.”…
The apostle John was saying something very similar when he said, “Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.” It was a greeting, a prayerful desire of the apostle’s, not a principle suggesting that Christians should be wealthy…
I looked at the passage to which David was pointing. I wasn’t surprised to see that he had been referred by some of my friends to Deuteronomy 8:18. I had used the verse myself in countless messages and appeals for money. The verse reads, “But thou shalt remember the lord thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he swore unto thy fathers, as it is this day” (kjv).

At first glance, the verse did seem to support the idea that God is the one who gives us the power to get rich…By looking up wealth in a Hebrew lexicon, we discovered that it comes from the Hebrew word, chayil, which is used times in the Old Testament. In almost every case, the word is meant to imply “might, strength, power, ability, virtue, valor,” and, oh, yes: “wealth.” It is used most often to describe valiant men and women and armies…What He was really saying was: “Remember, it is God who has given you the power to receive everything you have. He is the one who has given you strength. He is the one who has given you a house, land, or other possessions.”
I admit, in the past I had used this verse to make it sound as though it was God’s will to make everyone wealthy and if any of His people were poor, it was probably due to lack of faith or not applying the biblical “formulas” correctly. That was an improper interpretation of the passage. Yes, it is God who gives us the power to receive all that we have, but to assume that He wants all His people to be wealthy based on this Scripture is an illegitimate extension of that truth…
God also gives us the principle of sowing and reaping,… But God does not intend for this principle to foster lust for money and things or to support attitudes of greed, both of which are totally contrary to the teachings of Christ. This principle does not give people a license to love money under the guise of sowing seed, reaping a huge personal harvest and assuming that their gain is a sign of godliness…

He doesn’t want us to equate mere money with godliness. In fact, the apostle Paul said that “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness . . .supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself But godliness with contentment is great gain” (1 Tim. 6:3, 5-6 KJV).
For the first time, I began to really understand what Paul meant when he wrote, But they that will be rich [which I discovered meant: “they that want to be rich”] fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, 0 man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. (1 Tim. 6:9-11 kjv)
For years I had glossed over that passage of Scripture. I ignored it, made excuses for it, or tried to explain it away. I refused to accept the obvious interpretation. I now see that the message was right there all the time, so plain that even a child could see it and understand it. I was wrong. I knew I could not keep this newfound information a secret. I had influenced so many people to accept a “prosperity message,” I now felt that I had a responsibility to tell my friends what I had been learning from my studies of the Bible. I wrote a simple, straightforward letter and sent it to some of the people who had written to me in prison. In the letter, I told of the verses I had used improperly and what I had discovered by studying the true meaning of those verses. I apologized for preaching a gospel that emphasized earthly prosperity rather than spiritual riches. I wrote, “I ask all who have sat under my ministry to forgive me for preaching a gospel emphasizing earthly prosperity. Jesus said, ‘Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth.’ He wants us to be in love with only Him.” I went on,

Many today believe that the evidence of God’s blessing on them is a new car, a house, a good job, etc. But that is far from the truth of God’s Word. If that be the case, then gambling casino owners, drug kingpins and movie stars are blessed of God. Jesus did not teach riches were a sign of God’s blessings. In fact, Jesus said, “It is hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.” And He talked about the “deceitfulness of riches. . . .” There is no way, if you take the whole counsel of God’s Word, that you can equate riches or material things as a sign of God’s blessing.
If we equate earthly possessions and earthly relationships with God’s favor, what are we to tell the billions of those living in poverty, or what do you do if depression hits, or what do you say to those who lose a loved one? Many “in name only” Christians would curse God if they lost all of their material possessions.

Jesus said, “Narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it.” It’s time the call from the pulpit be changed from “Who wants the life of pleasure and good things, new homes, cars, material possessions, etc?” to “Who will come forward to accept Jesus Christ and the fellowship of His suffering?” Jesus calls us to come and die, die to ourselves and to the world, so He might give us true life.
The letter was not meant to be published to the world. I didn’t know how The Charlotte Observer got a copy of my letter, but the paper ran portions of it on the front page under the headline: “Ministry of Prosperity Was Mistake, Bakker Tells Friends.” Other publications picked up on the story, and ran excerpts of the letter as well.
Soon I began receiving mail from all over the country concerning the letter. Some people were appalled that I—a person they considered as a primary propagator of the prosperity message in the twentieth century— had disavowed my former teaching. Others who wrote to me were delighted that I had “finally seen the light.”…

Frankly, I was not greatly concerned with what the critics or the skeptics had to say about my speaking out against the prosperity message. I knew what God had clearly shown me from His Word. I had studied every word of Jesus over a period of two years, and I was convinced that the prosperity message was at best an aberration and at worst “another gospel” contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Although I still believed that God blesses His people, the prosperity message I had preached for many years was wrong.”
 
tim there a reason god did that with the hebrews. to show the world that if we did serve him we would be blessed but it was in a spirit of humility and not all hebrews had wealth. in the torah its mentioned to help the poor, the fatherless and the widows and that the hebrew ought not to have usury with each other.
 
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