Punishment or Holy

[childeye]

I'm thinking that the woman at the Well story should play into this.

Being the first to introduce Jesus to a whole Samaritan population is an honor I would give body parts up to do. She was busy trying to pick a fight with Jesus while trying to bless her.

I believe we all have the honor of giving up body parts to preach the Gospel. Nice thoughts John DB.

 

[childeye]

childeye said: ↑
I don't like the concept of kindness being brought about by either fear of punishment or hope of reward.

Brother smaller: brilliant? The very concept of God’s blessings to us is Jesus and that without works (Rom 4:6); how do I pat me on the back for that? The feel good moment comes when we realize the implication of the totality of it, its implications eternal (1 Jn 5:11), and our being a part of it that surely can only produce thankfulness in anyone knowing what they really were in the flesh.

I like the original thought JohnDB posted: “So do you think that God punishes us? Or does He allow us to have consequences of our actions?” Well, to me his punishment if it is to be seen as that is one of our Father for correction, and our reward is in the prospect of becoming qualified to win Christ and becoming His bride. Php 3:8).

I’m a firm believer that us who love the Lord experience the trial of our faith 1 Pet 1:7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ, but there are also sins unto death (1 Jn 5:15-16) for certain brethren, destruction of the flesh (1 Cor 5:5).

This had always been hard for me to understand when condemned in mine own eyes, and that Rom 8:28 can proclaim “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.” I look at Paul’s life of seemingly endless trials (2 Cor 11:23-30), and yet am told that I am to follow him as he followed Christ (1 Cor 11:1), because that is what I am being judged by Jesus for as we are in effect upon the judgment seat of Christ now as He walks among the candlesticks (Rev 1:12-20), and has John write of it in Revelation Chapters 2 & 3.
Enough, I seem to be the only one to perceive things as I do.

Eugene, I really don't like you feeling like you're alone in perceiving things as you do. It's just not true. All of your words that you write always testify in their connotations that you Love God because you can't not Love Him. Your trials will only affirm this. For you say that punishment is deemed as correction and reward is seen as being acceptable to God. These are thoughts spoken from a pure heart.

I would tell you that I often feel like no one understands me, or sees things the way I do. Therefore I am grateful to smaller when he says "brilliant". Now I know he doesn't think that I am brilliant and nor do I, but rather what he is saying is that he has had the same thoughts and liked how it was articulated.

 

[Jim Parker]

So do you think that God punishes us? Or does He allow us to have consequences of our actions?
(If we had all consequences we would be dead)

We do have the consequences; we all sin and we all die.

I believe:
(1) that we all have free will
(2) that God has revealed the way of eternal life and the way of eternal death.
(3) that God really wants us to have eternal life and "woos" us by the Holy Spirit
(4) that God lets us choose

What we choose determines what we get. God created the universe and it runs according to His laws. When we violate those laws, we suffer the consequences.

Sometimes God slaps someone "up side da head" to get him to straighten out. (Jonah)
Sometimes God slaps someone "up side da head" to make a point. (Job)
Sometimes God slaps someone "up side da head" because we need to be taught a lesson so we don't loose everything He gave us. (David's son by Bathsheba dying, Saul dying in battle, Paul's thorn in the flesh)

But for the billions of the rest of us, He lets us choose eternal life or, if we absolutely insist, eternal death.

Like the perfect Father, he wants the absolute best for us. But, because He has given us free will, He doesn't always get what He wants.
( Rom 10:21 But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people)

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

 

[smaller]

We do have the consequences; we all sin and we all die.

I believe:
(1) that we all have free will
(2) that God has revealed the way of eternal life and the way of eternal death.
(3) that God really wants us to have eternal life and "woos" us by the Holy Spirit
(4) that God lets us choose

And, if the above storyline isn't accurate, then what?

Every believer has a "storyline" construct. They use the bible to make sense of this present world, because in a lot of ways it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. And these various storylines are really what different christian theologies revolve around.

All storylines have "some" truths and maybe some vagueness as well. We all see only in part, after all.

The facts are none of us really know what God does from beginning to end, as a complete story. We only have "imaginations" about what that might be. But scripture tells us this:

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

I might term the above the surprise factor. I think it's quite pointless to believe in God in Christ and not believe there will be a perfect outcome. There will be a perfect outcome. That is the basis of "trust." We trust that not only will "all things" work out, but that they will work out perfectly.

It's problematic however to see this, presently, because none of us really know what "perfect" is or consists of. Perfect exists only as a pale imagination of man.

We could take most storylines and they generally are constructed as follows. And quite frankly I generally detest all such storylines because they are more than likely false. It goes like this:

"Things ARE going to work out perfectly for me and mine, but not for "others."

And the result of this storyline is usually "I am only good, but others are evil, because they don't have my storyline." OR "My evil is OK because of Christ, but the evil of others, oh, too bad for them."

and the resulting mindset this brings about is, "oh, too bad for you, because you did not see things like my storyline goes."

And this is the baseline for pretty much all christian sectarianism. Which again, I detest.

I do appreciate some of the finer minds of theology that make room for the possibility that the Grace of God in Christ may in fact be substantially LARGER than any of us are capable of "making room" for. And it is this kind of Grace that compels me, personally, to extend the same to others, continually, perpetually. It also requires me to put down my own imaginations, and to seek what His IMAGE(inations) might be.

Jesus told us that nothing is impossible with God, and that all things are possible.

Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.

These pretty well blows the doors off my own imaginations, and I am left to seek His Image, which only He can bring about.

IF I thought that the "freewill" storyline is what runs this world, and that it is the choices of man that operates the world, I wouldn't bother with God. Man has always operated with their own imaginations and it is at these 'imaginations' that each man supplicates. And that is the "essence" of personal idolatry, imho.

I much prefer the "surprise" factor, unknown, instead. Paul has told us that "our life is hid." Col. 3:3. When John in Rev. 1 "saw" God in Christ, His Image was substantially different that what we might perceive as a Risen Christ that we see earlier in the scriptures. A very different, vastly more "Powerful" Image.

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

IF we have a God that can make good come of evil, that alone speaks of Power and Imaginations well beyond what I can grasp in His Entirety.

Paul has inserted what we should think and perceive about these matters here:

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

I might add, I really don't care what anyone's storyline is. You are welcome to it. But when that storyline became a detriment to others, you didn't do yourself any favors.

 

[smaller]

Since this thread deals at least partially with "punishment" let's take an honest look for a change.

God, in His Sovereignty, has constructed each of us thusly:

We, internally consist of both good and evil. Any halfwit should be able to come into the fact of this matter. For me, any person who is a believer, and can not deal with the evil side of this equation of fact, well, I might just say they are in massive denial of internal reality. Yes, we all have evil present within us. Paul openly testifies to this matter in Romans 7:21. So, from Paul, I take my mark of honesty, and both admit to and submit to this fact. To me, not submitting to this is a lie to both common sense reality and an insult to God's factual construct of us all.

I can not, in honesty, avoid this conclusion.

Once this is seen, then our "relationship" with God takes on a somewhat different demeanor. There is some RIGHTFUL fear that comes about, because God, In His Sovereignty, can and DOES make things difficult for us, personally. And this, I know, from experience. It is called "tribulations" and "chastisements." And if you have never "tasted" this side of God, then scripture may term such as bastards, and NOT sons of God.

Sons of God in Christ are above all else, HONEST.

Anyone who has not handled this side, the internal EVIL, of their own internal factual construct, that God Himself made and placed us all INTO, have not yet submitted to Divine Providence, are only covering up the obvious and are probably just another common liar. No offense to anyone intended or required. This is just a FACT of our construct that the Apostles and Christ have directed us all to observe.

God Himself has MADE the command that LIGHT shine from the darkness. And in this we might see that GOOD does shine from the midst of EVIL.

There is just no use hiding this from God. It is futile to approach God in Christ, dishonestly. We are not "fooling Him" and we are only kidding ourselves, if we can't even make an honest account of our own selves.

This honest sight "levels" the playing field of "everyone" in the church. There is not one person who is "better" than another-> IF we are honest about ourselves, and what we consist of, internally. And that is both good and evil.

I might add, I do not fellowship well with people who are not honest.

 

[smaller]

The 'basis' of my fear of God is found in the fact that "I" personally am internally constructed of both "good" and "evil." God is NOT against good. But, God is against EVIL. This is the basis of the fear of God. And it is RIGHTFUL fear.

Paul, addressing this matter, doesn't allow us to "whine" about this construct.

Romans 9:20
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 

[smaller]

If we want to know why "bad things happen to good people" we need only to recognize that there are no "only good" people. There are factually only people who are both good and evil internally. And Divine Sovereignty elects to deal with this fact however HE pleases to do.

God Himself has placed us into this "untenable" situation precisely to demonstrate 2 things.

One, is His Divine Superiority.

And the other, to demonstrate HIS MERCY and GRACE.

Evil then is a 'needful' quotient to these matters, and is in fact HIS SERVANT.

IF I understand "Divine Sovereignty" correctly, it would be written thusly:

All things serve The Maker of all things. And I take this cue from scriptures, here for example:

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

How might we perceive this?! IF God can make and derive a PERFECT OUTCOME, using EVIL as His Servant, yes, a Mighty God, indeed. This is my God.

 

[Jim Parker]

And, if the above storyline isn't accurate, then what?

That's not a "story line."
That's what I find in the Bible.
It's not everything the Bible says. It's my answer to a previous question.

Every believer has a "storyline" construct. They use the bible to make sense of this present world, because in a lot of ways it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. And these various storylines are really what different christian theologies revolve around.

All storylines have "some" truths and maybe some vagueness as well. We all see only in part, after all.

The facts are none of us really know what God does from beginning to end, as a complete story. We only have "imaginations" about what that might be.

And that would be your story line.

But scripture tells us this:

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

I might term the above the surprise factor. I think it's quite pointless to believe in God in Christ and not believe there will be a perfect outcome. There will be a perfect outcome. That is the basis of "trust." We trust that not only will "all things" work out, but that they will work out perfectly.

It's problematic however to see this, presently, because none of us really know what "perfect" is or consists of. Perfect exists only as a pale imagination of man.

We could take most storylines and they generally are constructed as follows. And quite frankly I generally detest all such storylines because they are more than likely false. It goes like this:

"Things ARE going to work out perfectly for me and mine, but not for "others."

And the result of this storyline is usually "I am only good, but others are evil, because they don't have my storyline." OR "My evil is OK because of Christ, but the evil of others, oh, too bad for them."

and the resulting mindset this brings about is, "oh, too bad for you, because you did not see things like my storyline goes."

And this is the baseline for pretty much all christian sectarianism. Which again, I detest.

I do appreciate some of the finer minds of theology that make room for the possibility that the Grace of God in Christ may in fact be substantially LARGER than any of us are capable of "making room" for. And it is this kind of Grace that compels me, personally, to extend the same to others, continually, perpetually. It also requires me to put down my own imaginations, and to seek what His IMAGE(inations) might be.

Jesus told us that nothing is impossible with God, and that all things are possible.

Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.

These pretty well blows the doors off my own imaginations, and I am left to seek His Image, which only He can bring about.

IF I thought that the "freewill" storyline is what runs this world, and that it is the choices of man that operates the world, I wouldn't bother with God. Man has always operated with their own imaginations and it is at these 'imaginations' that each man supplicates. And that is the "essence" of personal idolatry, imho.

I much prefer the "surprise" factor, unknown, instead. Paul has told us that "our life is hid." Col. 3:3. When John in Rev. 1 "saw" God in Christ, His Image was substantially different that what we might perceive as a Risen Christ that we see earlier in the scriptures. A very different, vastly more "Powerful" Image.

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

IF we have a God that can make good come of evil, that alone speaks of Power and Imaginations well beyond what I can grasp in His Entirety.

Paul has inserted what we should think and perceive about these matters here:

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

I might add, I really don't care what anyone's storyline is. You are welcome to it. But when that storyline became a detriment to others, you didn't do yourself any favors.

I think you have put some thought into your post and presented your view quite clearly.

Well done.

iakov the fool