Punishment or Holy

[Randy]

So do you think that God punishes us? Or does He allow us to have consequences of our actions?
(If we had all consequences we would be dead)

Small but important difference between the two concepts.

If God actively punishes us for bad things then the reverse must also be true. So we must be rewarded for the good things we do.

Now maybe since we can't earn grace, blessing or punishments there is something else at work here.

What do you think that might be?

It is written that God works for the GOOD of those that love Him. Those that continue to sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth will earn their reward. The wages of sin is death. But as John wrote anyone who continues to sin has not known the Lord. A good tree does not bear bad fruit.

Randy

 

[smaller]

What i said, is very simple.
Everyone is born with an Adamic Nature, = John 8:44.
So, everyone's mind is blinded until they are saved.
Had they no free will, then they could never "believe" the Gospel.
So with a "blinded mind" they hear the Gospel, they are drawn/convicted by the Holy Spirit, they understand and they believe.
Had they no free will, they could never be drawn, never believe.

There is no freewill. There is the blinded will of the person and the will of the "god of this world" upon their minds. One obviously is predominant over "everyone" until they believe. Only God in Christ can 'do that.' No unbeliever will or even can conceive that their mind is blinded by another party that is not them.
John 12:40, Acts 26:18, Romans 9:18-24, Romans 11:7-8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4 and numerous citings of the O.T. prophets which were the precursor citings in the N.T. for John 12:40 and similar.

Again, these all show that there are in fact 3 wills involved in these matters.

The Will of God
The will of the blinded
The will of the 'god of this world,' Satan

People are 'born again' by the Will of God, which is shown below by the process of elimination, showing the wills of the parties that didn't "do it."

John 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Additionally, as stated at length prior, the will of the god of this world, the tempter, continues to operate "in the flesh" even for believers, and this shows that "CONTRARY" wills remain involved with believers as well i.e. ours and the will of the tempter, who could care less about what God has to say and will in fact automatically resist everything of God in Christ because that is how that adverse spirit operates every time.

Paul shows this reality upon himself in Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 Tim. 1:15 among many other similar citings.

The conclusion from this is that we "all" experience adversity FROM GOD, because our wills are not alone or freestanding. We are free by reason of promise through faith in those promises and God in Christ who delivered them, but the will of other party is still present within the flesh, and God does deal adversely with "that" party and will.

This is actually the source of our chastisements and tribulations. It's not that God in Christ hates us, but we are all subjected to the wrestling matches of Eph. 6:11-13, with the devil, the tempter, in our own flesh.

We have basically a two fold construct involved. One party is saved and can not be lost. That is the child of God, born again. The other party is doomed to hell.

God has placed everyone under the tutorial of evil, that we learn to resist, and find out what Divine Mercy and Grace is "really" about. The big BUT involved with these matters is the other party will never concede that this is the case. Most believers understand they remain sinners (in all of the wild gyrations they use to "excuse" themselves) BUT very very few will concede that their "sin" is in fact "of the devil." And this is because the devil blinds them to this fact, in their flesh/carnal mind. 1 John 3:8

 

[Kidron]

There is no freewill.

-
Are you reading this post?
Trust me when i tell you that neither God nor Satan are making you read it.
Believe me.
And later, when you are hungry, and you go and CHOOSE what you are going to eat......trust me, neither God nor the Devil are going to choose for you what you end up eating.
And you are going to respond or not respond to this post, so, believe me, neither God nor the Devil are going to choose for you what you say, if you choose to respond.
And you say you have become a Christian.....And this is not because God forced you, nor because the Devil let you do it.
You CHOSE to believe the Gospel, and so, that is your free will in action.
So, in all this, you are exercising your Free Will.

Listen, have you never read:

1 Timothy 2:3
3: This is good, and pleases God
4: who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

now,
do you see what God wants? so this is explaining to us that he would have it that all are saved, however, not all will be saved.
He COULD enforce it and make all choose to be saved, but He is not going to do that... He is going to RESPECT the free will of a person, and let them decide.
This is why Preachers preach, and witnesses witness., its because "Faith cometh by HEARING, and hearing by the word of God".
So, a person whose mind is blinded by the Devil "HEARS" the Gospel and the Holy Spirit convicts-touches them, and in this process they have a free will that lets them DECIDE.
This is the "moment of decision", and its up to the person to choose.
Thats free will.

 

[smaller]

-
Are you reading this post?
Trust me when i tell you that neither God nor Satan are making you read it.
Believe me.
And later, when you are hungry, and you go and CHOOSE what you are going to eat......trust me, neither God nor the Devil are going to choose for you what you end up eating.
And you are going to respond or not respond to this post, so, believe me, neither God nor the Devil are going to choose for you what you say, if you choose to respond.
And you say you have become a Christian.....And this is not because God forced you, nor because the Devil let you do it.
You CHOSE to believe the Gospel, and so, that is your free will in action.
So, in all this, you are exercising your Free Will.

Listen, have you never read:

1 Timothy 2:3
3: This is good, and pleases God
4: who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

now,
do you see what God wants? so this is explaining to us that he would have it that all are saved, however, not all will be saved.
He COULD enforce it and make all choose to be saved, but He is not going to do that... He is going to RESPECT the free will of a person, and let them decide.
This is why Preachers preach, and witnesses witness., its because "Faith cometh by HEARING, and hearing by the word of God".
So, a person whose mind is blinded by the Devil "HEARS" the Gospel and the Holy Spirit convicts-touches them, and in this process they have a free will that lets them DECIDE.
This is the "moment of decision", and its up to the person to choose.
Thats free will.

You have a one sided equation that makes no account for the other side, as well noted prior.

There is no freedom in the flesh. The flesh has a contrary relationship with the Spirit. No getting around it. Nor, can the flesh avoid lusts and temptations of the tempter.

There are TWO wills. Count them. One of those wills will not submit to the conclusions of Gods Words and will 'claim' itself "free" when it's not, but doomed.

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now maybe since we can't earn grace, blessing or punishments there is something else at work here.

What do you think that might be?

Like the Promised Land, you have to be in, and stay in, the Land of unmerited blessing to enjoy those blessings. Wander away and God will purposely spank you to remind you to get back into the place of unmerited blessing (Hebrews 12:10 NASB).

 

[Kidron]

Y

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This scripture you quoted is talking to believers, and not to those who are (unsaved) blinded by the devil.
So, you cant use this one to deny free will
Paul is telling them that if they are walking after the flesh, instead of walking in the Spirit, they are going to have this issue in their hearts-conscience". = condemnation.
This is explained (context) in the very next scripture that you didnt quote......"so if YOU (believers) are led by the Spirit".

Here is what i hope you would come to understand.
If God didnt give free will to everyone, if there was no free will, if everyone is a Robot , if God chose heaven for some and hell for others, then how could God be just and hold anyone accountable for being a Christ rejector?
How could anyone end up in hell, and God be just , if they had no CHOICE but to reject Christ?
Listen, God could not be TRUE, if He on one hand causes people to go to Hell, holding them accountable for rejecting Christ, when this is what He caused them to choose.
If that were the case , then God is unjust in holding any accountable for rejecting Jesus, if they are being made to reject Him.

 

[Kidron]

Like the Promised Land, you have to be in, and stay in, the Land of unmerited blessing to enjoy those blessings. Wander away and God will purposely spank you to remind you to get back into the place of unmerited blessing (Hebrews 12:10 NASB).

-
Fortunately for us, we are "in Christ" and "seated in Heavenly places" >right now<, so we dont have to worry about the eternal loss of our position in Christ as we have Eternal Life IN US, as Jesus IS eternal life.... 1 John 5:11-13.
But as you say, if a Christian is going to backslide, then God as a Father, and just as our earthly fathers will do, = we are chastened to keep us holy.
This of course has only to do with keeping the relationship as it should be.

Imagine if you will, the foolishness of someone coming to this forum and saying...."yep, if you dont have faith and keep it, if you dont get water baptized, if you dont live holy and work those good works, then your parents are no longer your parents, as you have sinned yourself right out of the family.
Now, is anything more ridiculous or absurd and dumb?
So, isnt it great that just as we are born to our parents and THAT keeps us in the family and not our works or water or whatever, isnt it GREAT that its the same with our status in God's family as we have been BORN INTO IT, and cant be separated from it because we dont behave as good children?

 

[smaller]

This scripture you quoted is talking to believers, and not to those who are (unsaved) blinded by the devil.
So, you cant use this one to deny free will

Any "so called" freewill that examines their own will "honestly" should be able to figure out that we are tempted internally by the tempter. This fact however will stick in the craw of the most ardent believers, and they will DENY it happens, because their will is NOT free enough to speak honestly about this fact.

Paul was quite honest about the facts of his own internal lusts, in Romans 7:7-13. He concluded that 'temptation' was in his own flesh, including his MIND. Gal. 4:14. And this, by indwelling sin, "no longer I" that resisted God's Laws. He concluded also that evil was present with him. Romans 7:21.

Paul "saw" and "exposed" the "contrary will" of the tempter's lusts and temptations in the flesh. This is particularly pinpointed in 2 Cor. 12:7, but when people read it they literally can't believe their own eyes, that a "messenger of Satan" was in Paul's own flesh.

I know for no uncertain fact that when I witness Christ to any person, that I do not witness to just that person. Satan is also present within them, blinding their minds. And I understand this. One of the parties WILL believe, when I am done witnessing. The other however will RESIST every time. It is only God's Call to allow them to see, and most DO, when they know of God's Love for them, expressed. From that point on their own wrestling match comes into play.

 

[Kidron]

Any "so called" freewill that examines their own will "honestly" should be able to figure out that we are tempted internally by the tempter.
I know for no uncertain fact that when I witness Christ to any person, that I do not witness to just that person. Satan is also present within them, blinding their minds. And I understand this. One of the parties WILL believe, when I am done witnessing. The other however will RESIST every time. It is only God's Call to allow them to see, and most DO, when they know of God's Love for them, expressed. From that point on their own wrestling match comes into play.

-
Absolutely.

Its within the battlefield of each mind, where all the spiritual-flesh issues are being won and lost.

 

[smaller]

-
Absolutely.

Its within the battlefield of each mind, where all the spiritual-flesh issues are being won and lost.

Brilliant deduction. I found out, eventually, that I was not improving my own Spiritual serving by being a lying hypocrite. And, quite frankly, I detest that practice "in the churches."

Romans 3:9
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

 

[childeye]

So if God punishes us does He also reward us?

And doesn't that conflict with the notion of being saved by Grace?

I don't like the concept of kindness being brought about by either fear of punishment or hope of reward.

 

[smaller]

I don't like the concept of kindness being brought about by either fear of punishment or hope of reward.

Brilliant deduction! Wholeheartedly agree. It's one of the more difficult concepts in scripture to take hold of. Our inherent pride always seeks to pat ourselves on the back, to reward ourselves. And I have to admit, it does feel good to do that. But giving and kindness itself is a "present tense" at the moment of application, reward. I always "feel" the Spirit the most in these moments, as it is pleasing to the Spirit. It is "nice" to walk therein, continually. There is really no use taking any further. It feels good to be kind and to do and act kindly for the most part. Taking good/kindness/love past that point contains the potential of deceit, arrogance and self exaltation. It's a problem at that point, what was initially good is turned ugly.

Jesus does throw out quite a few statements, which on the surface are open paradox statements. These are the more fun scriptures to discuss, but few are able:

Luke 17:10
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

And, we are then shunned to say so when we read this:

Matthew 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Now, if that isn't a conundrum of fantastic proportions, I don't know what is.

BUT, it is entirely resolvable and harmonized, when we stop being hypocrites and liars, which is a much harder, more difficult proposal of the scriptures. And many a fine religious hierarchical intellect is stopped dead in their tracks at this junction.

The resolutions to such matters can only be solved, one by one. No other person can solve it for you, but the Spirit of God in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't like the concept of kindness being brought about by either fear of punishment or hope of reward.

Nobody likes it, I guess, but it is most certainly Biblical:

"...you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:20-22 NASB)

The Bible does say, though, that to relate to God in such a way--that is, through fear--is to have not matured in your relationship with God:

"18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love." (1 John 4:18 NASB)

 

[JohnDB]

I'm thinking that the woman at the Well story should play into this.

Being the first to introduce Jesus to a whole Samaritan population is an honor I would give body parts up to do. She was busy trying to pick a fight with Jesus while trying to bless her.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Fortunately for us, we are "in Christ" and "seated in Heavenly places" >right now<, so we dont have to worry about the eternal loss of our position in Christ as we have Eternal Life IN US, as Jesus IS eternal life.... 1 John 5:11-13.

You mistake my use of the Promised Land analogy as meaning salvation:

Like the Promised Land, you have to be in, and stay in, the Land of unmerited blessing to enjoy those blessings. Wander away and God will purposely spank you to remind you to get back into the place of unmerited blessing (Hebrews 12:10 NASB).

 

[Eugene]

childeye said: ↑
I don't like the concept of kindness being brought about by either fear of punishment or hope of reward.

Brilliant deduction! Wholeheartedly agree. It's one of the more difficult concepts in scripture to take hold of. Our inherent pride always seeks to pat ourselves on the back, to reward ourselves.

Brother smaller: brilliant? The very concept of God’s blessings to us is Jesus and that without works (Rom 4:6); how do I pat me on the back for that? The feel good moment comes when we realize the implication of the totality of it, its implications eternal (1 Jn 5:11), and our being a part of it that surely can only produce thankfulness in anyone knowing what they really were in the flesh.

I like the original thought JohnDB posted: “So do you think that God punishes us? Or does He allow us to have consequences of our actions?” Well, to me his punishment if it is to be seen as that is one of our Father for correction, and our reward is in the prospect of becoming qualified to win Christ and becoming His bride. Php 3:8).

I’m a firm believer that us who love the Lord experience the trial of our faith 1 Pet 1:7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ, but there are also sins unto death (1 Jn 5:15-16) for certain brethren, destruction of the flesh (1 Cor 5:5).

This had always been hard for me to understand when condemned in mine own eyes, and that Rom 8:28 can proclaim “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.” I look at Paul’s life of seemingly endless trials (2 Cor 11:23-30), and yet am told that I am to follow him as he followed Christ (1 Cor 11:1), because that is what I am being judged by Jesus for as we are in effect upon the judgment seat of Christ now as He walks among the candlesticks (Rev 1:12-20), and has John write of it in Revelation Chapters 2 & 3.
Enough, I seem to be the only one to perceive things as I do.

 

[smaller]

childeye said: ↑
I don't like the concept of kindness being brought about by either fear of punishment or hope of reward.

Brother smaller: brilliant? The very concept of God’s blessings to us is Jesus and that without works (Rom 4:6); how do I pat me on the back for that?

I was referring specifically to childeye's statement above.

Many believers "pretend" to be good, to avoid the punishment (in their own minds) of hell.

And, likewise but conversely, many also "pretend" to do good in order to receive a reward.

I agree with childeye, that the notions of kindness induced by the threats of punishments or the gain of reward is entirely self serving when approached in this manner. And hence also, my scriptural citings that followed. I feel secure in my faith. Therefore there is no present "reward/punishment" attachment, as salvation IS secured in Christ, as Solid as it can ever be. We do good, because it is in fact a present reward, and nothing more. Good is not a perfect and permanent action, and won't be and can't be, because all such works are performed in the reality of our present state, which is a combo state of good/evil, not perfection. Evil serves as a contrast to good. In perfection, there is neither. There is only perfection. I do not and can not perceive what that is, in it's entirety, and probably never will, as God Is Eternal, and not 'BOUND' that I might perceive His Entirety, which only He Knows. In other words, "I know my place" in the scheme of things. And it's subservient and also submissive to the Primary. I also respect how God constructed this present environment, as a compilation of both good/evil.

The feel good moment comes when we realize the implication of the totality of it, its implications eternal (1 Jn 5:11), and our being a part of it that surely can only produce thankfulness in anyone knowing what they really were in the flesh.

We are certainly "engaged" and moved to the good side of the ledgers for many reasons. That has not led me to deny Gods present construct however, because we are all in fact both good/evil regardless, as much as I or any might not like to observe one part of that factual equation. I've learned to respect and appreciate the contrast. And as I mentioned previously, God has also shown me His "discipline" on the other side of the equations, to make sure I remember the point being made, that we are "all" a compilation of good/evil.

Paul got the same lesson, in 2 Cor. 12:7.

I like the original thought JohnDB posted: “So do you think that God punishes us? Or does He allow us to have consequences of our actions?” Well, to me his punishment if it is to be seen as that is one of our Father for correction, and our reward is in the prospect of becoming qualified to win Christ and becoming His bride. Php 3:8).

I have deeply deeply pondered this matter, out of need. If anyone has been brought or 'dragged' into the discipline of God in Christ, they will relate. For others, it may be just delayed, out of kindness on God's part. But, if any believer does not know or have this discipline, Hebrews terms such as bastards, and not sons. I can speak of discipline in adversity, because of familiarity. More than I care to. I know the fear of God and it is rightly garnered. Not as an abstract meely mouthed claim that they fear God because their concept of God is great.

No, there is "real" fear involved. Trembling fear.

The kind of fear a child might have to keep his mouth shut at the table when Dad speaks, amplified by infinity.

 

[smaller]

When any person sees they are a factual internal compilation of good/evil, they will know why they receive adversity FROM GOD, and they will also realize they are quite helpless to avoid it.

God made that construct, placed us "in it" and deals, adversely, with evil, to show His Divine Superiority, not only over us, but over ALL.

And the intentions of God doing this are exactly to demonstrate HIS MERCY and GRACE.

Yes, we are good/evil, and evil deserves neither Mercy or Grace, but it is the foundation for our needs of same.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

It's at the point where you realize that your "sin/evil is of the devil" and see Gods Judgments, that things get real about the need for both Mercy and Grace. And this will also bring about the trembling fear factor as well. Yes, POST salvation.

 

[childeye]

-
Absolutely.

Its within the battlefield of each mind, where all the spiritual-flesh issues are being won and lost.

Since a lie usurps form the Truth, or in other words, has power only by undermining what is True, then wherever the Truth is being said or believed, the liar will come to undermine it.

 

[childeye]

Nobody likes it, I guess, but it is most certainly Biblical:

"...you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:20-22 NASB)

The Bible does say, though, that to relate to God in such a way--that is, through fear--is to have not matured in your relationship with God:

"18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love." (1 John 4:18 NASB)

Your two scriptures carry two different components pertaining to two different mindsets. The wicked, whose mind is set on destructive tendencies is headed towards hypocrisy through vanity, even because it thinks kindness is a prerogative rather than an attribute of the Eternal Spirit. Punishment and reward, in this mindset, is therefore viewed as a means to secure correct behavior and is therefore based upon doubt, and not faith. It is therefore prophetically self fulfilling.

Meanwhile the one who Loves God has no fear of punishment and views kindness as it's own reward, and in fact would be only thankful for God's correction, rather than view it as punishment.

The very first and foundational lie is that God is a tyrant. All other lies are built upon it, unto the utter blindness of what the original lie even is. The wicked mind is therefore reasoning upon this foundational lie as a fact, and counts God a tyrant, and doesn't even know that it is this hidden belief that is the very source of it's own wicked tendencies.