Purgatory

[biblecatholic]

Purgatory refers to a temporary state of purification for those who have died in the state of grace “savedâ€Âbut still need to get rid of any lingering imperfections( venial {nondeadly} sins, earthly attachments, self-will) it is true that the word puragtory does not appear in the bible(neither do the words Trinity, Incarnation, or even “bible†) whats important is not the word but the doctrine.... like i said purgatory is only for the saved. it is the purifying Christ

This is a verse for “nondeadly†and “deadlyâ€Âsins
1 john 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

matt 5:25-26 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny

matt 12:32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

2 tim 1:16-18 May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.

Onesiphorus is pauls dead friend

i tried to keep this short,, ill respond with other info when a comment is made(:

 

[Solo]

Those who have been born again, born of God do not need any further cleansing, as Jesus Christ has provided all that is needed. There is absolutely nothing that a sinful, corrupt individual can do to clean themselves up to be accepted into the Kingdom of God. Purgatory does not exist.

 

[Fnerb]

John 19:30 -

When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

τετέλεσται - to complete, fulfill, accomplish; to pay what is due, to pay the tax

Jesus completed everything necessary for entrance into heaven when he spoke these words. There is no further cleansing needed after death. No ammount of prayers after someone dies will take anyone from heaven to hell anymore than you can remove someone from hell into heaven.

I feel as though to suggest anything else lessens the power of Christ's sacrifice.

 

[Veritas]

Well biblecatholic, I don't think Purgatory exists either. But I hope that together we can still affirm that Jesus has died for us and saved us from our sins. I know I have a relationship with Jesus, and I pray you do too.

I've seen that you have a concern with us being super-popes. I have faith that God has the ability to lead men to the Truth without nesseccarily having a pope's interpretation too. By the way, didn't Augustine and Thomas Aquinas provide leaps and bounds in thought and interpretaion for the Bible too? And they weren't popes. (I really like reading their stuff by the way, I have a Peter Kreeft book on Aquinas.)

So, I've addressed the verses you gave:

matt 5:25-26 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny

This is from the beatitudes. Jesus told us how to be salt and light, explained what murder and adultery really are. He addresses divorce, oaths, love for enemies, giving for the needy, prayer, fasting, worrying, judging others, and fruits. The verses you've mentioned are right between Jesus' talk about murder and adultery. Given the context of this verse, I don't think this is related to a purgatory at all

matt 12:32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

jgredline, Packrat, and I were just talking about this. It is a difficult verse to understand. Jgredline and I came to the conclusion that this sin was very specific to the occasion and only possible when Jesus was here. I suppose when He comes back it would be possible again. I'll find the link jg gave me.... http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-B-8.htm

We were talking about it here: http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=28062 in the Christian Advice section

2 tim 1:16-18 May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.

Well, isnt this the best we can ask for our friends (ourselves too)? That the Lord will grant that they may find mercy of the Lord when called to pass out of time into eternity, and to appear before the judgment seat of Christ?

 

[Veritas]

Solo wrote:
Those who have been born again, born of God do not need any further cleansing, as Jesus Christ has provided all that is needed. There is absolutely nothing that a sinful, corrupt individual can do to clean themselves up to be accepted into the Kingdom of God. Purgatory does not exist.

Exactly, and this is supported clearly in scripture:

But when this priest (Jesus) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins....by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Hebrews 10:12-14

biblecatholic, its done, no more cleansing is needed. We're perfect in Him!

 

[francisdesales]

Those who have been born again, born of God do not need any further cleansing, as Jesus Christ has provided all that is needed. There is absolutely nothing that a sinful, corrupt individual can do to clean themselves up to be accepted into the Kingdom of God. Purgatory does not exist.

Solo,

Well, that could open a whole new thread - regarding whether we need cleansing or not. I think one could make a very biblical case that a person who is a slave to sin (even a Christian) NEEDS cleansing. I do remember we have discussed this before, and I think there is a lot of verses I could quote (again) that show that man is in CONSTANT need of God and His forgiveness. We both know Christians who are in need of God's forgiveness, God's aid, God's cleansing to remove themselves from the slavery of alchoholism, pornography, lust, and so forth.

I do not believe you think that a Christian living in the above situation is NOT in need of God's help. Yes, Jesus Christ has done what is necessary for us to be saved. We agree on that. Please never forget that. We do share some commonality on doctrine, just as we have shown on the Trinity. What I would like to mention to you is that God's salvation offered to men is offered to ALL men. Jesus has sufficiently offered enough merit to the Father for the sake of ALL men. And yet, ALL men will not be saved. As such, there is a component of salvation that demands "something" from men to accept or deny. We call that living faith. Thus, we do not "clean" ourselves. And the concept of Purgatory is not a "self-cleansing".

To us, Purgatory is that last, merciful opportunity for a less-than-perfect Christian to become purified (based on the work of Christ) before entering the presence of the Almighty in heaven. Kind of like washing our hands before coming to the table (and the Wedding Feast is an apt analogy used in Scriptures to define heaven).

I think where we differ on the subject of Purgatory is the NECESSITY for it. But if you consider for a moment that God's salvation is offered to ALL men but not accepted by all men, you might be able to see why we see it as a great mercy offered to us weak humans.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Exactly, and this is supported clearly in scripture:

But when this priest (Jesus) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins....by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Hebrews 10:12-14

biblecatholic, its done, no more cleansing is needed.

Jesus, being God, being eternal, being changeless - continues to offer that ONE sacrifice to the Father in heaven. This action completed on earth, this sacrificial offering of self for the sake of mankind, continues in a bloodless manner. Thus, we Catholics believe that we are able to participate in this "ongoing" offering to the Father. That is why the Mass is so important to us - it is a participation in Christ's eternal offering. If you read the first Christians writing about this, you will find that they, too, saw the Eucharist as a participation in the sacrifice of Jesus. Thus, the Scriptures relate that Christ CONTINUES to intercede to the Father for us.

If Christ's work is "done", there would be no need for Him (and the Spirit) to intercede for us TODAY. Romans and Hebrews relate Jesus' continuing intercessionary pray - His sacrifice that He continues to offer to the Father. If Christ's work is "done", then why did He breath on the disciples and confer the power to forgive sins AFTER THE RESURRECTION, when He said "it was finished"? Why did Paul discuss the ministry of reconcilliation with Christians "who didn't need anymore cleansing"? Why does John tell us that "if" we sin, we have an advocate in Jesus Christ?

I have a difficult time understanding how one could think that Christians no longer need cleansing. We ALL falter, as Paul relates. We ALL become a slave to sin in some manner throughout our lives. Doesn't this suggest we need God's cleansing, God's healing touch to free us from this?

Regards

 

[GMS]

We struggle in this life with sin until our last dying breath, thus, if there was a purgatory all Christians would be there. Thankfully, the finish work of the Cross, allows us to be seen by the Father as rigtheous even now in this physical realm. It truly is faith alone and true faith will exhibited God's purposes being worked out in the believer as fruit (Ephesians 2:10), though He nonetheless, works through imperfect vessels.
GMS

 

[Solo]

Well, one good thing about purgatory is that all Roman Catholics who are not born again and are sent to hell will think that it is temporary and one day they will be in heaven; after all that must be the case because all of the popes are there.

 

[biblecatholic]

Those who have been born again, born of God do not need any further cleansing, as Jesus Christ has provided all that is needed. There is absolutely nothing that a sinful, corrupt individual can do to clean themselves up to be accepted into the Kingdom of God. Purgatory does not exist.

first, we dont clean ourselves. Christ's purifing light cleanses us. there is also absolutely nothing sinful that may enter heaven(rev 21:27) can you talk about the scriptures i gave?


solo also said Well, one good thing about purgatory is that all Roman Catholics who are not born again and are sent to hell will think that it is temporary and one day they will be in heaven; after all that must be the case because all of the popes are there.

i guess you're not a big fan of of the Catholic church lol..that has a (latin{roman} and a eastern rite) just so you can sound like you know what you're talking about.
why can you not address the verses that i stated and "pick them apart"?
i am "born again" the bible way....though baptism
you have a real gift to know whos in hell but you probably know when the worlds going to end also.

 

[Solo]

first, we dont clean ourselves. Christ's purifing light cleanses us. there is also absolutely nothing sinful that may enter heaven(rev 21:27) can you talk about the scriptures i gave?


solo also said Well, one good thing about purgatory is that all Roman Catholics who are not born again and are sent to hell will think that it is temporary and one day they will be in heaven; after all that must be the case because all of the popes are there.

i guess you're not a big fan of of the Catholic church lol..that has a (latin{roman} and a eastern rite) just so you can sound like you know what you're talking about.
why can you not address the verses that i stated and "pick them apart"?
i am "born again" the bible way....though baptism
you have a real gift to know whos in hell but you probably know when the worlds going to end also.

Water baptism at birth or as an adult does not save one. Salvation only comes when the Holy Spirit births one into the New Creature. The New Creature does not sin, but the corrupt flesh does sin. The corrupt flesh will die or be transformed into a perfectly "clean" body ready to enter into heaven.

In your thinking, what enters into purgatory, your soul or your body or both?

 

[biblecatholic]

. It truly is faith alone
GMS

but the bible doesnt say that james 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead

what does Jesus tell us when we ask? lets see matt 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.â€Â


james 2:14-15 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
[/i]

 

[biblecatholic]

The New Creature does not sin, but the corrupt flesh does sin.

ill start a new discussion on baptism.... are you telling me that you do not sin?

 

[Solo]

ill start a new discussion on baptism.... are you telling me that you do not sin?

The New Creature that is born again by the Spirit of God does not sin.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

The flesh is sold under sin, and each believer has a war within between the sinful flesh and the righteous New Creature (the inward man born of God).

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:14-25

As info, you failed to answer my previous question:

In your thinking, what enters into purgatory, your soul or your body or both?

 

[biblecatholic]

Well biblecatholic, I don't think Purgatory exists either. But I hope that together we can still affirm that Jesus has died for us and saved us from our sins. I know I have a relationship with Jesus, and I pray you do too.

I've seen that you have a concern with us being super-popes. By the way, didn't Augustine and Thomas Aquinas provide leaps and bounds in thought and interpretaion for the Bible too?

thanks for addressing the verses. im sorry that i left the impression that the popes interpret the scriptures. the church has the Authority to do this now people can build upon reveiled truth and thousands have. my pope comment whas just addressing people who have a problem with the pope as a "primeminister" when a pastor of a church has much more power then our pope.because he can change doctrine. thats all i was saying.sorry about the confusion.

matt 5:25-26 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny


Veritas said:This is from the beatitudes. Jesus told us how to be salt and light, explained what murder and adultery really are. He addresses divorce, oaths, love for enemies, giving for the needy, prayer, fasting, worrying, judging others, and fruits. The verses you've mentioned are right between Jesus' talk about murder and adultery. Given the context of this verse, I don't think this is related to a purgatory at all

think in 5:32 he talks about divorce and if they marry again they commit adultry. are all the "born again"people who get divorced going to hell? i dont think all will. they'll be purified with the rest of us who sin after we accept Jesus. we are judged on our works

matt 12:32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. the "prison" is purgatory the most important think in life is the afterlife. he would be also talking about this
i don't agree with your conclusion.

2 tim 1:16-18
Veritas said{Well, isnt this the best we can ask for our friends (ourselves too)? That the Lord will grant that they may find mercy of the Lord when called to pass out of time into eternity, and to appear before the judgment seat of Christ}
true. but this shows he is praying for a "saved" person to be granted final rest. why? its just not to be nice. the scriptures have much meaning.

 

[GMS]

Biblecatholic,

Remember that Abraham was declared righteous upon his belief (Romans 4:1-3) then works spring forth from the heart transplant of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 2:1-10). To God be the glory for our salvation and sanctification.

Romans 4:5, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.."
GMS

 

[biblecatholic]

The New Creature that is born again by the Spirit of God does not sin.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

The flesh is sold under sin, and each believer has a war within between the sinful flesh and the righteous New Creature (the inward man born of God).

so i guess judas didnt have to worry about sin? or you can sin all you want and it doesnt matter because your"born again"

As info, you failed to answer my previous question:

In your thinking, what enters into purgatory, your soul or your body or both?

sorry , i over looked its been like 5 on one so some stuff mike take long. besides the fact that most of the "saved" will be there
your body resurects at the end of time.... maybe you could address the bible verses i said at first? just a thought

 

[biblecatholic]

Biblecatholic,

Remember that Abraham was declared righteous upon his belief (Romans 4:1-3) then works spring forth from the heart transplant of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 2:1-10). To God be the glory for our salvation and sanctification.

Romans 4:5, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.."
GMS

i dont know how many have faith like abraham. that is some amazing faith!
i pray to have that kind of faith

1 cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
so faith without love is useless

matt 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

romans 2:5-6_ 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deedsâ€Â

james 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe thatâ€â€and shudder.

 

[francisdesales]

Well, one good thing about purgatory is that all Roman Catholics who are not born again and are sent to hell will think that it is temporary and one day they will be in heaven; after all that must be the case because all of the popes are there.

I think our definition of "born again" differs, first of all. That is the topic of another thread, so I won't detail that, just to point it out.

Catholics do not believe that if a person is sent to hell, that they are getting out. Hell is for the damned. Purgatory is for the saved, but who need further purification. Have we crucified ourselves for the sake of Christ? Have we abandoned ourselves fully to Him? I think we ALL have a ways to go on that as we struggle between the temptations of this world and the salvation offered by Christ - peace and forgiveness in this world (as well as the next).

As to the popes being in purgatory - I see you have changed your mind on the existence of purgatory, since someone now occupies it...

Regards

 

[biblecatholic]

John 19:30 -

When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

τετέλεσται - to complete, fulfill, accomplish; to pay what is due, to pay the tax

Jesus completed everything necessary for entrance into heaven when he spoke these words. There is no further cleansing needed after death. No ammount of prayers after someone dies will take anyone from heaven to hell anymore than you can remove someone from hell into heaven.

I feel as though to suggest anything else lessens the power of Christ's sacrifice.

i understand what you're saying..... He did complete everything. does it say in the bible that we wont be purified before entering heaven? we have to be and this "process" or "place" is called purgatory

God will certainly remove the filth of the flesh prior to the resurrection of our bodies." Precisely, and THAT is what purgatory is;