Purgatory

[jgredline]

WOW...I just finished reading through every single post in this thread and I must say that there are questions that I have....

First, I will say that ''purgatory'' is bordering on ''Universal Salvation''....I know that biblecatholic made referance to it s place for final cleansing for the believer....The problem I have with this is simple really....First, who is to say according to the Catholicism who is saved and who is not....Most catholics believe that infant baptism saves, when the scriptures say otherwise...But like you said this is a thread for another day...I am mearly expressing what is going through my mind as I type....

Ok, I believe Fnerb said it quite clear...To have additional holding tank for purification is saying that the beating Jesus took and of course the cross was not enough...I don't recall Jesus telling the thief...''Today you will be with me in paradise so I could cleanse and purify you before you see the father''.....

What I do read is this...

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

I can write a huge commentary on this, but really the scriptures speak for themselves... We are clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ.....

 

[Solo]

My previous post is directly related whether a place such as purgatory exists or not, and the Scripture that I posted shows the lie of purgatory. Be careful, for we know who the father of lies is

first of all the father of lies has created division in between the churches and let people make up their own interpretation of the Word {2 peter 3:16}there and make up their own doctrines even satan quotes ps 91:11-12 in matt 4:6.

You can believe that if you like, but the truth is that the Holy Spirit dwells within all those who have been born again, born of God, and the Holy Spirit teaches all truth to the believers. Some of the truth is taught by men, and some truth is taught by individual study of the Word. Most truth is learned from individual study and meditation upon the Word of God. All truth is revealed to the believer by the Holy Spirit.

• But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1 John 2:27
  
  15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
  
  2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Romans 12:2

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:51-57

The alive in Christ Jesus do not go to purgatory when He comes, and those asleep in Christ do not go to purgatory as they go to be with Christ immediately upon their resurrection at His return.
the key is this is at His return.the end

at the end of time there is no more purgatory. this verse has to do with the end of time. so your private interpretation is wrong.

The Scripture is clear that those who sleep in Christ Jesus will be resurrected at his coming, and those that are alive at his coming will be changed. This is not my private interpretation; it is a simple rendering of the Scripture.

Purgatory does not exist. The bodies of those who die go to the grave until the resurrection, therefore the bodies do not go to a place called purgatory. The spirits/souls of those who are born again go to heaven where their Saviour Jesus Christ is, for the born of God soul/spirit of man is not sinful, and needs no purification from a place of purgatory.

• 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9
  
  13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent F10 them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

The soul of the born again, born of God goes to Christ at the moment that one dies. Stephen is one such example in Acts.

• 54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:54-60

are you like him, st stephen went strait to heaven doesnt mean we will. you have to take the entire bible cover to cover in context ,not 2 pet 3:16 it

Yes I am like Stephen. Stephen was born again and was a new creature in Christ Jesus just as all born again, born of God believers are. Stephen walked in the Spirit in the New Creature just as all of us are able. When Stephen walked in the flesh and fell, he was picked up again as Jesus Christ is his advocate who died for ALL of his sins. All born again believers have the mind of Christ, while those who have not been born again do not have the New Creature within them, and are only born of the flesh. Those that are only born of the flesh are natural man, and cannot understand the spiritual things of God.

• 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:13-16

Why would one whose sins have been forgiven them through the blood of Jesus Christ have to spend time in a place of torment such as purgatory unless Jesus' payment was not able to pay for the wages of sin? Purgatory makes absolutly no sense at all, nor does it speak of the character of God Almighty.

 

[biblecatholic]

WOW...I just finished reading through every single post in this thread and I must say that there are questions that I have....

First, I will say that ''purgatory'' is bordering on ''Universal Salvation''

if universal salvation means what it sounds like. it is not. we're just saying that most who go to heaven get cleansed off first.not that all or alot of people are saved

....I know that biblecatholic made referance to it s place for final cleansing for the believer....The problem I have with this is simple really....First, who is to say according to the Catholicism who is saved and who is not....Most catholics believe that infant baptism saves, when the scriptures say otherwise...But like you said this is a thread for another day...I am mearly expressing what is going through my mind as I type....

salvation is so misunderstood , Jesus is not like a onenight stand. salvation is a process. you are saved in baptism, you are saved when you work out your salvation with fear and trembling, and you are saved when you finish the race
titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration(baptism) and renewing of the Holy Spirit,. this is how you are saved....
phil 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;(also 1cor1:18,1 pet 1:9),matt 10:22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.(also matt 24:13, rom 5:9 rom13:11) children baptism acts 16:30-31(also acts16:15,16:33,1 cor 1:16 let the children come to Me(mk 10:14)

Ok, I believe Fnerb said it quite clear...To have additional holding tank for purification is saying that the beating Jesus took and of course the cross was not enough...I don't recall Jesus telling the thief...''Today you will be with me in paradise so I could cleanse and purify you before you see the father''.....
.[/quote]
wrong Jesus did not rise till the 3rd day. in the creed that 99% of even protestants say he descended to the dead ( it means hades,purgatory) so if he is with Jesus he must of followed Him for the 3 days so maybe he was cleansed in purgatory. not sure on this passage (this would my private interpretation)but i know Jesus didnt go to heaven till the 3rd day. so you are misinterpreting the meaning of "today"

What I do read is this...
I can write a huge commentary on this, but really the scriptures speak for themselves... We are clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ.....

Jesus is not tefflon. we are judged on our works.

 

[Solo]

Jesus is not tefflon. we are judged on our works.

Your salvation is not based on your works; your rewards or level of eternal punishment is based on your works.

• And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Revelation 22:12

When Jesus returns, His rewards are with him. All who are born again will be resurrected in the first resurrection already given their eternal life. The judgment of works will determine the level of reward in heaven for those who are saved.

Those who are not born again will not be resurrected in the first resurrection. Their eternal destiny is already determined because of their being condemned already for not believing.

• 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

 

[jgredline]

I see you dodged the passage in Romans...I am not surprised...Really am not...You wrote allot and said little...But lets take a close look at your statement here....

Ok, I believe Fnerb said it quite clear...To have additional holding tank for purification is saying that the beating Jesus took and of course the cross was not enough...I don't recall Jesus telling the thief...''Today you will be with me in paradise so I could cleanse and purify you before you see the father''.....

wrong Jesus did not rise till the 3rd day. in the creed that 99% of even protestants say he descended to the dead ( it means hades,purgatory) so if he is with Jesus he must of followed Him for the 3 days so maybe he was cleansed in purgatory. not sure on this passage (this would my private interpretation)but i know Jesus didnt go to heaven till the 3rd day. so you are misinterpreting the meaning of "today"

BC
''wrong?''....Lets take a look at this exchange shall we....

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

BC...i must say that I am surprised at you...Calling Jesus a liar :-?

 

[biblecatholic]

was Jesus in Heaven"today" He rose on the third day. .....you have to know when to look at a passage as literal or literary. most who take stuff literary would say if the scriptures said its raining cats and dogs its really doing that. you have to be literal and know what the writer is meaning. with all the verses

i hate to break it to ya but im not avoiding your verse. i get like 1000 thrown at me from all people, people throw me insults then i have to answer not only the verse but the insult. ive been throwing them back so im just as guilty.

its me against a few on this topic so we could take 2 or 3 passages at a time.... the quote from romans is does say that but do you understand what it is saying,thats the problem people ignore all the verses that contradict that verse there are so many.
what does Jesus Himself say what you have to do to go to heaven
matt 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.†although seeming like contradictions there are none in scriptures the problem is that there so many infalliable interpretations as many people read the bible is close to how many interpretations.

 

[Solo]

Read Luke 16 and you will be able to understand that Sheol/Hades is the place for the souls of men who have died and their bodies were placed in the grave.

There are two places in Sheol/Hades according to Jesus. One place is for the unrighteous dead, and the other place is for the righteous dead. They have already been judged for their destiny of eternal life or everlasting punishment.

When Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise today, he was speaking of the place in Sheol/Hades where the righteous souls went after the body died. Notice that the place where the unrighteous souls went was a place of torment. The place where the righteous souls went was not a place of torment, but was called paradise. After Jesus' resurrection, paradise was taken from Sheol/Hades and rose to heaven.

• And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43
  
  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Corinthians 12:4
  
  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:7

The commandment of God is to believe so that one can be a born of God creation to accomplish the works of God as born again believers are the workmanship of Christ Jesus.

• 44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. John 12:44-50

 

[Fnerb]

The state of purgatory is mentioned in the Scriptures - in 2 Maccabees.

Yes but isn't Maccabees part of Apocrypha?

wrong Jesus did not rise till the 3rd day. in the creed that 99% of even protestants say he descended to the dead ( it means hades,purgatory) so if he is with Jesus he must of followed Him for the 3 days so maybe he was cleansed in purgatory. not sure on this passage (this would my private interpretation)but i know Jesus didnt go to heaven till the 3rd day. so you are misinterpreting the meaning of "today"

Wait a minute. Are you saying that Jesus was in purgatory for three days?

You are right that we need to be careful regarding taking a verse literally vs. figuratively. However, I think taking those 3 days as something literal for Christ to be gone is dangerous.

Heaven and hell are in the relms of eternity. Something we cannot even begin to fathom. And unless i'm reading the verse wrong, the bible tells us that God is not contstrained by time...

Psalm 90:3-6

3 You turn men back to dust,
saying, "Return to dust, O sons of men."

4 For a thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by,
or like a watch in the night.

5 You sweep men away in the sleep of death;
they are like the new grass of the morning-

6 though in the morning it springs up new,
by evening it is dry and withered.

 

[Guest]

All this talk of purgatory is making my head spin.

In a nutshell what purgatory is saying is that for some people (the people that are supposedly 'sent' there - for whatever convoluted reason - remember it has been used to increase the coffers! - "when the coin in the plate rings, someone from purgatory springs" or something to that effect) - for some people the atoinment of Christ's death is not sufficient.

How can anyone accept a notion of Christ's atoinment not being enough!

 

[francisdesales]

isn't Maccabees part of Apocrypha?

No. It is part of Sacred Scripture that Martin Luther didn't care for, so it was removed and dubbed "Apocrypha", placed in the back of Scriptures then, removed totally from your bibles now.

If the Church listened to everyone who thought they could determine the canon without the Church, we'd have no Old Testament, only the Gospel of Luke, and only some of Paul's writings (according to Marcion). Fortunately, the Church doesn't listen to individuals who think they know it all.

Wait a minute. Are you saying that Jesus was in purgatory for three days?

No, I said He descended into Hades. I do not know whether He was there for three days or not, nor didd I say that Jesus suffered in Purgatory. Freeing the righteous souls of the OT from Hades was the purpose in the Creed that states "He descended into hell"

Heaven and hell are in the relms of eternity. Something we cannot even begin to fathom.

I agree. Time is different in the afterlife.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

All this talk of purgatory is making my head spin.

In a nutshell what purgatory is saying is that for some people (the people that are supposedly 'sent' there - for whatever convoluted reason - remember it has been used to increase the coffers! - "when the coin in the plate rings, someone from purgatory springs" or something to that effect) - for some people the atoinment of Christ's death is not sufficient.

How can anyone accept a notion of Christ's atoinment not being enough!

ALoneVoice,

Purgatory does not say that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient to save mankind. But I ask you again. Are all men saved???

Regards

 

[Fnerb]

No. It is part of Sacred Scripture that Martin Luther didn't care for, so it was removed and dubbed "Apocrypha", placed in the back of Scriptures then, removed totally from your bibles now.

If the Church listened to everyone who thought they could determine the canon without the Church, we'd have no Old Testament, only the Gospel of Luke, and only some of Paul's writings (according to Marcion). Fortunately, the Church doesn't listen to individuals who think they know it all.

It was my understanding that the Apocrypha goes a little further back than Luther, that these books were not acknwoledged as inspired by the early Jewish church.

No, I said He descended into Hades. I do not know whether He was there for three days or not, nor didd I say that Jesus suffered in Purgatory. Freeing the righteous souls of the OT from Hades was the purpose in the Creed that states "He descended into hell"

That wasn't direct at you Fran, that was a response to a comment that biblecatholic made.

Purgatory does not say that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient to save mankind. But I ask you again. Are all men saved???

All that believe upon Christ are.

Psalm 103:12 - as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.

 

[Guest]

ALoneVoice,

Purgatory does not say that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient to save mankind. But I ask you again.

Well sure it does. It is basically saying that one is not righteousness enough, or sanctified enough, or 'cleaned-off' enough - whatever word your phrase you want to use. That you need to spend some time in purgatory!

Either Christ's death is sufficient or not.

Are all men saved???

Regards

I do not understand what universality as to do with purgatory? Unfortunately, not all of mankind accepts the Lordship of Jesus Christ. If they were, then yes, all men would be saved. However, not all accept it.

 

[jgredline]

was Jesus in Heaven"today" He rose on the third day. .....you have to know when to look at a passage as literal or literary. most who take stuff literary would say if the scriptures said its raining cats and dogs its really doing that. you have to be literal and know what the writer is meaning. with all the verses

i hate to break it to ya but im not avoiding your verse. i get like 1000 thrown at me from all people, people throw me insults then i have to answer not only the verse but the insult. ive been throwing them back so im just as guilty.

its me against a few on this topic so we could take 2 or 3 passages at a time.... the quote from romans is does say that but do you understand what it is saying,thats the problem people ignore all the verses that contradict that verse there are so many.
what does Jesus Himself say what you have to do to go to heaven
matt 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.†although seeming like contradictions there are none in scriptures the problem is that there so many infalliable interpretations as many people read the bible is close to how many interpretations.

BC
OK, I understand that there are many who are challenging your views. I have been where you are in that I have found myself debating 6 on one before as well, so I do understand....I will post my thoughts and if you feel you can challenge them, then have at....If not I would have expressed what the bible says and teaches for those who are following along.....

I will post up the two scriptures I used earlier, where you offered very brief commentary....I also accused you of saying that you implied Jesus Lied...I was wrong, although I did not know it at the time and ask you for forgiveness...Let me now explain...as I was studying these verses this morning.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.†NKJV

Luke 23:43 και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω 1550TR

I want to point out something in particular here...When I am wrong I am wrong and will correct myself as pride has no place in teaching the word of God.....The way that this passage is written in the Greek, the word today is written and placed in the the ''future'' tense....There are two definite articles in the verse, but one refers to Jesus as being the speaker and the other to the thief as being the recipient of eternal life.....this however does not take away from the fact that no place in this discourse purgatory is mentioned....or implied..Now I will have some food....and go to work on Romans chapter 3

 

[golfjack]

reply

The subject matter here is purgatory. There is more here than meets the eye. Some Ex Catholic's here may remember what I am about to say.

Around 1952 the Catholic Church had a way to stay out of purgatory, and even guranteed entrance into heaven. If one would attend 9 first Friday and First Saturday Mass services and received Communion, they were promised that they would not go to purgatory and would be guranteed heaven. The promise was given by the virgin Mary. As a nine year old, this had an impression on me. They also had Novvena's on certain days of the week, usually at night, where they would pray rosaries and other things, which I can't remember now. Can you see how dangerous this is?

I am going top make a statement here that could possibly be deleted, but will say it anyway. My Father passed away about 4 years, and I had to repent for compromising the Word of God. By not telling him the Truth, he could have gone to hell. My Mother still purchases Mass cards to bring him out of purgatory. Can you feel my pain? Therefore, Catholic Thelogy is responsible for sending countless millions to hell. To me, God's business is very serious, and not to be taken lightly. The doctrine of purgatory is one of many false doctrines that the devil has bound up the Catholic Church for centuries. Please, please, you Catholic's out there come out of that Church and make Jesus Christ your personal Lord and Savior, and not just have an intellectual reception of Christ. And I don't believe you have that much time, as I believe Christ will come back in our life time. Get out of the grips of the Catholic Church.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[francisdesales]

I do not understand what universality as to do with purgatory?

Because if Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all men - since He died for all men, then it becomes evident that Christ expects a particular response from the love that He has offered to us first. Fortunately, He does not expect perfect love from us - as the perfect love He gave us. However, to enter heaven, we must be holy. Purgatory is the state where we are enabled by the sacrifice of Christ to COMPLETELY put on the mind of Christ.

Very few of us put on the mind of Christ completely while in this world.

Regards

 

[jgredline]

Pope revises 'limbo' for babies

By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 2 minutes ago

VATICAN CITY -
Pope Benedict XVI has revised traditional Roman Catholic teaching on so-called "limbo," approving a church report released Friday that said there was reason to hope that babies who die without baptism can go to heaven.
ADVERTISEMENT

Benedict approved the findings of the International Theological Commission, which issued its long-awaited document on limbo on Origins, the documentary service of Catholic News Service, the news agency of the American Bishop's Conference.

"We can say we have many reasons to hope that there is salvation for these babies," the Rev. Luis Ladaria, a Jesuit who is the commission's secretary-general, told The Associated Press.

Although Catholics have long believed that children who die without being baptized are with original sin and thus excluded from heaven, the church has no formal doctrine on the matter. Theologians have long taught, however, that such children enjoy an eternal state of perfect natural happiness, a state commonly called limbo, but without being in communion with God.

Pope John Paul II and Benedict had urged further study on limbo, in part because of "the pressing pastoral needs" sparked by the increase in abortion and the growing number of children who die without being baptized, the report said.

In the document, the commission said there were "serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and brought into eternal happiness."

It stressed, however, that "these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge."

Ladaria said no one could know for certain what becomes of unbaptized babies since Scripture is largely silent on the matter.

Catholic parents should still baptize their children, as that sacrament is the way salvation is revealed, the document said.

The International Theological Commission is a body of
Vatican-appointed theologians who advise the pope and the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Benedict headed the Congregation for two decades before becoming pope in 2005.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070420/ap_ ... ican_limbo

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Around 1952 the Catholic Church had a way to stay out of purgatory, and even guranteed entrance into heaven. If one would attend 9 first Friday and First Saturday Mass services and received Communion, they were promised that they would not go to purgatory and would be guranteed heaven. The promise was given by the virgin Mary. As a nine year old, this had an impression on me. They also had Novvena's on certain days of the week, usually at night, where they would pray rosaries and other things, which I can't remember now. Can you see how dangerous this is? [

Golfjack,

If such a thing were officially taught by the Church, you are correct, it could be dangerous. However, it wasn't nor is it today. You will not find ANYWHERE that such a DEVOTION is taught by the Universal Church as salvific. Can you point to me a specific section from the Baltimore Catechism? A counciliar statement? An encyclical? A papal address? Anything???

Didn't think so...

When partaking in such devotions, it is paramount to understand that (1) they are based on private devotions and beliefs; one does not have to believe in such things stated by apparitions and (2) they presume that a person who undertakes the devotion is ALREADY devoted to Christ outside of the Novena/devotion itself. Thus, it would never do to say that a Mafia charecter reciting the Novena as a formula will achieve salvation no matter what he does. That is an incorrect attitude towards the devotion.

What you need to do, Golfjack, is remember how much YOU actually researched what the Church officially taught. Unfortunately, it appears that you blindly believed everything that came out of a priest or nun's mouth as a law of the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, it appears that you readily believed what some Protestant preacher told you about the Catholic Church - without going to the source. That is obviously wrong. A person after the truth would have researched to find the TRUE stance of the Church when something didn't sound quite right. The Scriptures tell us that there will be wolves among the sheep, leading some away. A Catholic who takes their faith seriously would have analyzed your assertion to find out that it is incorrect, as is the rest of the anti-Catholic fables you post from time to time on this forum.

I am going top make a statement here that could possibly be deleted, but will say it anyway. My Father passed away about 4 years, and I had to repent for compromising the Word of God. By not telling him the Truth, he could have gone to hell. My Mother still purchases Mass cards to bring him out of purgatory. Can you feel my pain?

It is good to know that you mother still is devoted to the memory of her husband. There are numerous such writings on the catacombs that show this as an ancient practice among Christians. Have you considered that your mother's hope in the mercy of God is much better than your bitter ignorance of what the Church actually teaches?

Therefore, Catholic Thelogy is responsible for sending countless millions to hell.

The only people responsible for "sending people to hell" are false prophets who should know better. People such as yourself. People who were perfectly capable of finding the truth of what the Church taught, but didn't. People who complain about how "dead" the Church is, but when you ask them to volunteer for something, they are nowhere to be found. People who complain that there is no one to serve them in times of need, but would never think of actually doing something themselves. People who say "gimmie gimmie"... "What's in it for me?"

And when someone whips you into an emotional frenzy, you think that is an experience of God???

Face it. Both Protestant and Catholics alike have their share of lukewarm Christians. It is not fair to judge a community based on the worse members. In your attempt to justify your decision to join another community, you vilify the community you were formerly a part of. What is sad is that it appears that you knew very little about what your faith taught. This I know from previous conversations with you, as well as your post above.

Please, please, you Catholic's out there come out of that Church and make Jesus Christ your personal Lord and Savior, and not just have an intellectual reception of Christ. And I don't believe you have that much time, as I believe Christ will come back in our life time. Get out of the grips of the Catholic Church.

That is an idiotic statement that assumes that all Catholics are as lukewarm as you were when you were a Catholic. I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I don't have just an intellectual reception of Christ. I have that AND an experiential reception. You would be wiser to not judge all Catholics based on your experience as a tepid Christian. Those of us who toil for the Kingdom do it out of love for Christ. If you were more active in the Church, you would have saw that.

 

[francisdesales]

It was my understanding that the Apocrypha goes a little further back than Luther, that these books were not acknwoledged as inspired by the early Jewish church.

That is not true. The "Jewish church" before it split into Christian/Jewish sects believed that the Septaugint was Scripture. Thus, there are numerous allusions to the Deuterocannonicals (what you would call the Apocrypha) and the Greek Septaugint is quoted much more often in the NT when there is a reference to the OT.

Secondly, if you consider the post-split Jew's decision to discount the Greek OT's former position as Scripture, perhaps you should consider that these same men also considered the Gospels of the NT as ALSO NOT SCRIPTURAL. Are you going to listen to their decisions?

Regards

 

[Guest]

Because if Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all men - since He died for all men, then it becomes evident that Christ expects a particular response from the love that He has offered to us first. Fortunately, He does not expect perfect love from us - as the perfect love He gave us. However, to enter heaven, we must be holy. Purgatory is the state where we are enabled by the sacrifice of Christ to COMPLETELY put on the mind of Christ.

Very few of us put on the mind of Christ completely while in this world.

Regards

Would you be so kind as to provide Biblical support that "purgatory is the state where we are enabled by the sacrifice of Christ to COMPLETELY put on the mind of Christ."?