Purgatory??????

[Monkey Del]

Is Purgatory in the Bible? Or is it a made up place?


IS Purgatory agaist the Doctrine of Eternal Judgement? I believe it is, infact I see no where it even remotely says it. What say you?

 

[copernicus]

Since Purgatory is a purely Catholic belief and understanding from Holy Scripture, the poll question could also be framed this way:
Who on this forum is a devout Catholic?

I only know 2 on this forum (Hi Bill ;)), and perhaps a Greek Orthodox that may vote in opposition to your question.

If one truly understands the notion of Purgatory, one would realize that Purgatory DOES NOT go against the idea of an eternal judgement. Those in Purgatory are DESTINED for heaven, because they are friends of God and DO NOT have the stain of a MORTAL SIN on their souls. They however, must endure the temporal (TEMPORARY) punishment associated with sin-- just like each of us do, either on Earth or in the life to come.

Scripture does not reference 'Purgatory', but neither does it reference 'The Holy Trinity'. Thus, using this limited test to discern doctrinal understanding is incomplete.

With respect to the precedence for a 'place' other than Heaven or Hell, the story of Lazarus and the rich man (in death) is evidence that such a place existed, whether Abraham's Bosem, sheol, or whatever one calls it. Thus, it IS NOT a novel idea to suggest that a temporary realm (besides heaven and hell) cannot exist.

If I can find where to vote, I will do so, but if I cannot, I vote no to your poll question. There is no contradiction between Purgatory and God's eternal judgement.

We must be Holy to enter Heaven:
Rev 21:22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

God disciplines us for sin (Temporal punishment)
Hebrews 12: 4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, 6because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." 7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

All sin is not the same, with respect to consequence:
1 John 6: 16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
Luke 12:47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
Understanding:when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master. Catholics call the sin that does not lead to death-- venial. Sin that leads to death is mortal).

A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Understanding: Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for more than hundreds of years has called this state purgatory.

Matt 5:25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
Luke 12:58 As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
Understanding: these verses allude to a temporary state of purgation called a "prison." There is no exit until we are perfect, and the last penny is paid.

Purification After Death By Fire
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire

1 Cor 3: 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. 16Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 - Paul says though he will be saved, "but only" through fire. The phrase "but only" in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both rewarded and saved by fire.

1 Cor. 3:15 - when Paul teaches that those whose work is burned up will suffer loss, the phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. This means that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, which cannot mean either heaven (no need for it) or hell (expiation no longer exists).

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death.

1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17).

 

[William Putnam]

Since Purgatory is a purely Catholic belief and understanding from Holy Scripture, the poll question could also be framed this way:
Who on this forum is a devout Catholic?

I only know 2 on this forum (Hi Bill ;)), and perhaps a Greek Orthodox that may vote in opposition to your question.

Hi copernicus! Yep! You know how I voted! :angel:

prebutrous is the Orthodox Christian who most probably would vote out way.

Happy New Year to you and yours, sir! :B-fly:

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

[Gary]

Roman Catholic errors about purgatory

Protestant Reasons for Rejecting Purgatory

Purgatory is a denial of the sufficiency of the cross. Protestants reject the doctrine of purgatory primarily because it in effect denies the all-sufficiency of Christ’s atoning death. Scripture teaches that when Christ died on the cross, he proclaimed, “It is finished†(John 19:30). Speaking of his work of salvation on earth, Jesus said to the Father, “I glorified you on earth by accomplishing the work that you gave me to do†(John 17:4). The writer of Hebrews declared emphatically that salvation by Christ’s suffering on the cross was a once-for-all accomplished fact. “For by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated†(Heb. 10:14).

These verses demonstrate the completed, sufficient nature of the work of Christ. To affirm that we must suffer for our own sins is the ultimate insult to Christ’s atoning sacrifice! There is a purgatory, but it is not after our death; it was in Christ’s death. For “when he had accomplished purification from sins, he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high†(Heb. 1:3).

“Purification†or purging from our “sins†was “accomplished†(past tense) on the cross. Thank God that this is the only purgatory we will ever have to suffer for our sins. Of course, hell awaits those who reject this marvelous provision of God’s grace (2 Thess. 1:5–9; Rev. 20:11–15). There are also temporal cause-effect relations in this life that what we sow, we reap (Gal. 6:8–9). There is, however, absolutely no evidence that we will have to pay for our sins in the next life, either eternally or temporally.

To argue, as Roman Catholic scholars do, that purgatory is part of our experiential sanctification is to overlook two important points. First, all experiential sanctification occurs in this life before death (cf. 1 Cor. 3:10–13; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 22:12). The only sanctification after death is actual. The Bible calls it glorification (Rom. 8:30; 1 John 3:2). Second, sanctification is not a process of paying for our sins. It is the process through which God, by his grace, delivers us from our sins, all for which (past, present, and future) Christ has already atoned. To be sure, salvation is not fully obtained at the moment of initial justification. Salvation comes in three stages: salvation from the penalty of sin (positional justification); salvation from the power of sin (practical sanctification); and salvation from the presence of sin (ultimate glorification). However, in none of these stages do we atone for our sins as a condition for entering heaven. Salvation is not something we “do†to obtain heaven. By Jesus’ sacrificial death it is done! As the hymn writer put it, “Jesus paid it all. All to him I owe. Sin had left a crimson stain. His blood has washed it white as snow†(cf. Isa. 1:18).

Purgatory is contrary to the immediacy of heaven after death. The Bible speaks of death as the final moment of life after which one goes immediately to heaven or to hell. For “it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment†(Heb. 9:27). Jesus said that “a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing†the border into heaven after death (Luke 16:26). Upon death a person goes directly to one of two destinies, heaven or hell. At death believers immediately “leave the body and go home to the Lord†(2 Cor. 5:8).

That Paul is not merely expressing his wish to be immediately with Christ but a reality is evident from verse 1: “For we know. . . .â€Â

Further, the immediacy of ultimate bliss upon death for a Christian is confirmed by many other texts, including the thief on the cross who went that very day to paradise (Luke 23:43) and Paul’s statement that, when he died, he would “depart and be with Christ†(Phil. 1:23). The same is true of Paul’s last written words when he speaks of his “departure†to receive his “crown of righteousness†(2 Tim. 4:6–8).

Likewise, the saints who will be martyred during the great tribulation will go immediately to heaven (Rev. 6:9–10), as did Enoch in the Old Testament (Heb. 11:5) and Moses and Elijah, who appeared with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration (Luke 9:30–31). Likewise, unbelievers enter hell at the moment of death. Jesus told the story of how Lazarus died and went to heaven and “the rich man also died and was buried, and from the netherworld, where he was in torment . . . he cried out, ‘Fther Abraham, have pity on me’ †(Luke 16:22–24).

There is no indication in Scripture that people will be purified from their sins after death. Scripture teaches that death is final, and a destiny of woe or bliss is immediate.

Source: Geisler, N. L., & MacKenzie, R. E. (1995). Roman Catholics and Evangelicals : Agreements and differences (Page 338).

 

[William Putnam]

Re: Roman Catholic errors about purgatory

Protestant Reasons for Rejecting Purgatory

Purgatory is a denial of the sufficiency of the cross. Protestants reject the doctrine of purgatory primarily because it in effect denies the all-sufficiency of Christ’s atoning death. Scripture teaches that when Christ died on the cross, he proclaimed, “It is finished†(John 19:30). Speaking of his work of salvation on earth, Jesus said to the Father, “I glorified you on earth by accomplishing the work that you gave me to do†(John 17:4). The writer of Hebrews declared emphatically that salvation by Christ’s suffering on the cross was a once-for-all accomplished fact. “For by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated†(Heb. 10:14).

As a matter of fact, purgatory in the Catholic mind is the very epitome of the sufficiency of the cross!

Think about it, Gary! What greater grace, mercy, justice and love that a final purging that may be allowed before entry into heaven, whereas before, not one stain of sin can remain on the soul in order to enter heaven!

These verses demonstrate the completed, sufficient nature of the work of Christ. To affirm that we must suffer for our own sins is the ultimate insult to Christ’s atoning sacrifice!

Gary, before the cross, no suffering on our part could ever get us into heaven! And for the sins that would otherwise condemn us to hell, the cross, with it "agent" called baptism, would that then apply the blood of that wonderful cross on us that we may get to heaven.

But the cross is not the ultimate sufficiency because if that were so, then all men are saved, period. There would be no hell, and all men and women would go to heaven regardless of their sins, repentant or not, they still go to heaven (a bit like the Universalists like to tell us...)

And so if you allow that me must believe in Him, accept Him as our Savior and Lord, then how is it that we cannot also say that sins we commit after salvation's flush at the tent revival, that we must be accountable for them? And how is it that a provision is also made that if we sin once again, even grevious sins that would condemn (shall I post those verses again for your edification and amazement?) we find another wonder provision of that merciful cross - the sacrament of reconsiliation that is obvious in John 20:22-23 (talk about me going off-topic now!) that we may find forgiveness for them and retain our road to salvation!

There is a purgatory, but it is not after our death; it was in Christ’s death. For “when he had accomplished purification from sins, he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high†(Heb. 1:3).

Indeed! But for the sins that are purged at our acceptance of Him and at our baptism! But how about if I sin greviously tomorrow, Gary?

Am I still saved, even if I do not repent of these new sins?

“Purification†or purging from our “sins†was “accomplished†(past tense) on the cross. Thank God that this is the only purgatory we will ever have to suffer for our sins. Of course, hell awaits those who reject this marvelous provision of God’s grace (2 Thess. 1:5–9; Rev. 20:11–15). There are also temporal cause-effect relations in this life that what we sow, we reap (Gal. 6:8–9). There is, however, absolutely no evidence that we will have to pay for our sins in the next life, either eternally or temporally.

Past tense? Indeed!

How about the sins we commit in the future, gary? What say you about John, speaking to "born again" Christians, in 1 John 5:16-17 concerning sins that are deadly and sins that are not deadly?

To argue, as Roman Catholic scholars do, that purgatory is part of our experiential sanctification is to overlook two important points. First, all experiential sanctification occurs in this life before death (cf. 1 Cor. 3:10–13; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 22:12). The only sanctification after death is actual. The Bible calls it glorification (Rom. 8:30; 1 John 3:2). Second, sanctification is not a process of paying for our sins. It is the process through which God, by his grace, delivers us from our sins, all for which (past, present, and future) Christ has already atoned. To be sure, salvation is not fully obtained at the moment of initial justification. Salvation comes in three stages: salvation from the penalty of sin (positional justification); salvation from the power of sin (practical sanctification); and salvation from the presence of sin (ultimate glorification). However, in none of these stages do we atone for our sins as a condition for entering heaven. Salvation is not something we “do†to obtain heaven. By Jesus’ sacrificial death it is done! As the hymn writer put it, “Jesus paid it all. All to him I owe. Sin had left a crimson stain. His blood has washed it white as snow†(cf. Isa. 1:18).

I have no idea what "experiential sanctification" is, but all I know, you must still account for the following verses:

WHY THERE IS NO ASSURANCE OF SALVATION


Mt 10:22
But whoever holds out till the end will escape death. (NAB)

Mt 24:13
The man who holds out to the end, however, is the one who
will see salvation. (NAB)

Mk 13:13
Nonetheless, the man who holds out till the end is the one
who will come through safe. (NAB)

Lk 9:62
Jesus answered him, "Whoever puts his hand to the plow but
keeps looking back is unfit for the reign of God." (NAB)

Rom 5:2
... we boast of our hope for the glory of God. (NAB)

Rom 8:24-25
In hope we are saved. But hope is not hope if its object is
seen; how is it possible to hope for what he sees? And hoping
for what we cannot see means awaiting it with patient
endurance. (NAB)

1 Cor 10:12
For all these reasons, let anyone who thinks
he is standing upright watch out lest he fall! (NAB)

1 Cor 4:3-5
It matters little to me whether you or any human court
pass judgment on me. I do not even pass judgment on myself.
Mind you, I have nothing on my conscience. But that does
not mean that I am declaring myself innocent. The Lord is
the one to judge me, so stop passing judgment before the
time of his return. He will bring to light what is hidden
in the darkness and manifest the intentions of hearts. At
that time, everyone will receive his praise from God. (NAB)

1 Cor 9:27
No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after
having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
(NAB)

1 Cor 10:12
Therefore whoever thinks he is standing secure should
take care not to fall. (NAB)

2 Cor 6:3
We avoid giving anyone offense, so that our ministry may
not be blamed. On the contrary, in all that we do we
strive to present ourselves as ministers of God, acting
with patient endurance amid trials, difficulties,
distresses, beatings, imprisonments, and riots; as men
familiar with hard work, sleepless nights and fastings...
(NAB)

Gal 5:1-4
1. For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm and do
not submit again to the yoke of slavery. 2. It is I, Paul,
who am telling you that if you have yourselves circumsised,
Christ will will be of no benefit to you. 3. Once again, I
declare to every man who has himself circumcised that he is
bound to observe the entire law. 4. You are separated from
Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you
have fallen from grace. (NAB)

Phil 2:12
So then, my dearly beloved, obedient as always to my
urging, work with anxious concern to achieve your
salvation, not only when I happen to be with you but
all the more now that I am absent. It is God, who, in
his good will toward you, begets in you any measure of
desire or achievement. (NAB)

Phil 3:11-14
11 if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the
dead. 12 It is not that I have already taken hold of
it or have already attained perfect maturity , but I
continue my persuit in hope that I may possess it,
since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ
[Jesus]. 13 Brothers, I for my part do not consider my-
self to have taken possession. Just one thing: for-
getting what lies behind but straining forward to what
lies ahead. 14 I continue my pursuit toward the goal,
the prize of God's upward calling, in Christ Jesus.
(NAB)

1 Tim 4:1
Not the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times
some will turn away from the faith by paying attention
to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions...(NAB)

1 Tim 5:15
For some have already turned away to follow Satan. (NAB)

Heb 3:12-15
12 Take care, brothers, that none of you may have an
evil and unfaithful heart, so as to forsake the living
God. 13 Encourage yourselves daily while it is still
"today," so that none of you may grow hardened by the
deceit of sin. 14 We have become partners of Christ if
only we hold the beginning of the reality firm until
the end, 15 for it is said:

Oh, that today you would hear his voice:
"Harden not your hearts as it the
rebellion." (NAB)

Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have
once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift
and shared in the holy Spirit 5 and tasted the good
word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and
then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance
again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for
themselves and holding him up to contempt.

Heb 6:11-12
Our desire is that each of you show the same zeal till the
end, fully assured of that for which you hope. Do not grow
lazy but Imitate those who through faith and patience, are
inheriting the promises. (NAB)

1 Pet 1:13-15
So gird the loins of your understanding; live soberly; set
your hope on the gift to be conferred on you when Jesus
Christ appears. (NAB)

2 Pet 2:15
Abandoniong the straight road, they have gone astray,
following the road of Baslaam, the son of Bosor, who
loved payment for wrongdowing,...

2 Pet 2:20-21 20
For if they, having escaped the defilement of the world
through the of [our] Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again
become entangled and overcome by them, their last
condition is worse then their first. 21 For it would have
been better for them not to have known the way of righteous-
ness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy
commandment handed down to them.

Purgatory is contrary to the immediacy of heaven after death. The Bible speaks of death as the final moment of life after which one goes immediately to heaven or to hell. For “it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment†(Heb. 9:27). Jesus said that “a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing†the border into heaven after death (Luke 16:26). Upon death a person goes directly to one of two destinies, heaven or hell. At death believers immediately “leave the body and go home to the Lord†(2 Cor. 5:8).

Remember these, Gary?

PURGATORY

The Bible commends the practice of praying for the dead.

2 Maccabees 12:46 "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought
to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins."

NOTE: And I just love how you love Maccabees, Gary! I tell you what, if you don't consider it to be divinely inspired scripture, notice that it at least reflects the theology of the times, concerning some place where a soul my sojurn, awaiting for their "release" that they may enter heaven.

The following passages indicate the existence of purgatory.

Matthew 12:32 "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son
of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak
against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in
this world, nor in the world to come."


Luke 12:58-60 "And when thou goest with thy adversary to the
prince, whilst thou art in the way, endeavour to be delivered
from him: lest he draw thee to the judge, and the judge deliver
thee to the exacter, and the exacter cast thee into prison. I
say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence, until thou pay the
very last mite."

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 "Every man's work shall be manifest; for
the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be
revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of
what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built
thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he
shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by
fire."

1 Peter 3:18-19 "Because Christ also died once for our sins, the
just for the unjust; that he might offer us to God, being put to
death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit. In which
also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison."

That Paul is not merely expressing his wish to be immediately with Christ but a reality is evident from verse 1: “For we know. . . .â€Â

Further, the immediacy of ultimate bliss upon death for a Christian is confirmed by many other texts, including the thief on the cross who went that very day to paradise (Luke 23:43) and Paul’s statement that, when he died, he would “depart and be with Christ†(Phil. 1:23). The same is true of Paul’s last written words when he speaks of his “departure†to receive his “crown of righteousness†(2 Tim. 4:6–8).

Gary, the Church does not deny the immediacy of heaven for those who die in His grace! And I have every reason to believe that Paul did that very thing - go to heaven immediately after death, as well as the martyrs and the great saints of the Church! I want to be in that company as well!

Likewise, the saints who will be martyred during the great tribulation will go immediately to heaven (Rev. 6:9–10), as did Enoch in the Old Testament (Heb. 11:5) and Moses and Elijah, who appeared with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration (Luke 9:30–31). Likewise, unbelievers enter hell at the moment of death. Jesus told the story of how Lazarus died and went to heaven and “the rich man also died and was buried, and from the netherworld, where he was in torment . . . he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me’ †(Luke 16:22–24).

I just said that! :angel:

[quoteThere is no indication in Scripture that people will be purified from their sins after death. Scripture teaches that death is final, and a destiny of woe or bliss is immediate.

Source: Geisler, N. L., & MacKenzie, R. E. (1995). Roman Catholics and Evangelicals : Agreements and differences (Page 338).[/quote]

Did your source check-out those verses I quoted? Perhaps you should go back and see...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

 

[Gary]

Bill and Ott disagree

Protestant Response to Roman Catholic Arguments for Purgatory

By way of introduction to our reply, two things should be observed. First, Roman Catholic theologian, Ott, admits that the Bible teaches the existence of purgatory only “indirectly,†and even then it is only a “possibility†from these Scriptures. This is totally opposite to William ("Bill") Putman who quotes many Scripture passages out of contect. Phrases like these reveal the weakness of the biblical basis for this doctrine. Further, Ott acknowledges that the argument from reason is arrived at only “speculatively.†In short, there is really no direct or positive proof for purgatory from Scripture. Rather, it is based on extra-biblical tradition and human speculation. However, Roman Catholic William ("Bill") Putman, with his "private" interpretation, thinks otherwise!

Response to Argument from Scripture.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia frankly acknowledges that “the doctrine of purgatory is not explicitly stated in the Bible.†Neither is it taught implicitly in Scripture, since the Roman Catholic use of Scripture to support purgatory does violence to the contexts of the passages employed. A brief examination of them will suffice.

2 Maccabees 12:42–46. The Protestant response to the use of this text to prove purgatory is simple: 2 Maccabees is not part of the inspired canon of Scripture, and therefore has no authority. It, along with the rest of the Apocrypha, were not accepted as inspired by the Jewish community that wrote them. They were not accepted by Jesus and the apostles, who never quoted them in the New Testament. They were rejected by many important early Fathers of the church, including Jerome, the great biblical scholar and translator of the Roman Catholic Latin Vulgate. Indeed, they were not infallibly added to the Roman Catholic Bible until after the Reformation (a.d. 1546), in a futile attempt to support purgatory and prayers for the dead which Luther attacked. Even then this polemical anti-Reformation council inconsistently rejected some apocryphal books, including one (2 [4] Esdras 7:105) which speaks against praying for the dead.

Matthew 12:32. Roman Catholics’ use of this passage to support the concept of forgiveness of sins after death fails for several reasons. First, the text is not speaking about forgiveness in the next life after suffering for sins but the fact that there will be no forgiveness for this sin in “the world to come†(Matt. 12:32). How can the denial that this sin will not ever be forgiven, even after death, be the basis for speculating that sins will be forgiven in the next life? Also, purgatory involves only venial sins, but this sin is not venial; it is mortal, being eternal and unforgiveable. How can a statement about the unforgiveness of a mortal sin in the next life be the basis for an argument that non-mortal sins will be forgiven then? What is more, the passage is not even speaking about punishment, which Roman Catholics argue will occur in purgatory. So how could this text be used to support the concept of purgatorial punishment? Finally, even if this passage did imply punishment, it is not for those who will eventually be saved (as Roman Catholics believe is the case with those who go to purgatory) but for those who never will be saved. Again, how can a passage not speaking about punishment for the saved after death be used as a basis for belief in purgatory, which affirms punishment for the saved? In view of these strong differences, it is strange indeed that Roman Catholic scholars cite it in support of the doctrine of purgatory. It only indicates the lack of real biblical support for the doctrine.

1 Corinthians 3:15. Here Paul is speaking of believers who will one day be given a “wage†(v. 14) for their service to Christ. The texts say nothing about believers suffering the temporal consequences for their sins in purgatory. They are not burned in the fire; only their works are burned. Believers see their works burn but they escape the fire. Even Ott seems to admit that this text “is speaking of a transient punishment of the Day of General Judgment, probably consisting of severe tribulations after which the final salvation will take place.†If so, then it is not speaking of what has traditionally been called purgatory at all. It should be pointed out that contemporary Roman Catholic apologists (like Ott) tend to reduce purgatorial pain to the scrutinizing experience of post-mortem sanctification, thus indicating their retreat from the more traditional and objectionable Roman Catholic teaching on purgatory. First, 1 Corinthians was written to those “who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus†(1:2). Since they were already positionally sanctified in Christ, they needed no further purification to give them a right standing before God. They were already “in Christ.†After listing a litany of sin, including fornication, idolatry, and coveting, Paul adds, “that is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ†(1 Cor. 6:11). From this and other Scriptures (cf. 2 Cor. 5:21) it is evident that their sins were already taken care of by Christ’s suffering (cf. 1 Pet. 2:22–24; 3:18) and that they stood, clothed in his righteousness, perfect before God. They needed no further suffering for sins to attain such a standing or to get them into heaven. The fact that God desired them to improve their practical state on earth does not diminish for one moment their absolutely perfect standing in heaven. No sudden rush of practical sanctification (= purgatory) is needed to enter heaven.

Second, the context reveals that the passage is not speaking about the consequence or sin but of reward for service for those who are already saved. Paul states clearly: “If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation [of Christ], that person will receive a wage [or, reward]†(1 Cor. 3:14). The question here is not sin and its punishment but service and its reward. Likewise, as even Catholic theology acknowledges, the “loss†(v. 15) is clearly not referring to salvation since “the person will be saved†(v. 15). Thus, the loss must be a loss of reward for not serving Christ faithfully. There is absolutely nothing here about suffering for our sins or their consequences after death. Christ suffered for all our sins by his death (1 Cor. 15:3; Heb. 1:2).

Third, the “fire†mentioned here does not purge our soul from sins; rather, it will “disclose†and “test†our “work.†Verse 13 says clearly, “the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s workâ€Â. There is literally nothing here about purging from sin. Contrary to the Catholic claim, the aim of the cleansing mentioned is not ontological (actual) but functional. The focus is on the crowns believers will receive for their service (2 Tim. 4:8), not on how their character is cleansed from sin. It is simply a matter of revealing and rewarding our work for Christ (2 Cor. 5:10).

Matthew 5:26. Ott’s “further interpretation†goes well beyond the context. First, Jesus is not speaking about a spiritual prison after death but a physical prison before death. The previous verse makes the context clear: “Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge . . . and you will be thrown in prison†(v. 25). To be sure, Jesus is not speaking of mere external things but of the spiritual matters of the heart (cf. vv. 21–22). However, nothing in the context warrants the conclusion that he intended the concept of a “prison†to refer to a place (or process) of purgation for sins in the next life, which is what one would have to conclude if this passage is made to speak of purgatory. Even orthodox Catholics like Cardinal Ratzinger shy away from the prison image of purgatory, claiming it is not “some kind of supra-worldly concentration camp.†Further, to make this an analogy or illustration of a spiritual prison after death (i.e., purgatory) is to beg the question, since one has to assume there is a purgatory where you “will not be released until you have paid†(v. 26) before it can be an illustration of it. Illustrations do not prove anything; they only illustrate something already believed to be true. Hence, this passage cannot be used as a proof of purgatory.
Finally, if this text is taken as a reference to purgatory it contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture that there is nothing temporal or eternal left to pay for the consequences of our sins. While Catholics acknowledge that Christ’s death paid the penalty for the guilt and eternal consequences of our sins, they deny that this means there is no purgatory in which we pay for the temporal consequences of our sins. But, as we shall see below, Christ’s death on the cross was both complete and sufficient for all our sins and all their consequences. To say there is some suffering for sins left for us insults the once-for-all finished work of Christ (cf. Heb. 10:14–15). Once Jesus suffered for our sins, there is nothing left for us to suffer, for there is “no condemnation†for those in Christ (Rom. 8:1). Indeed, even death is overcome (1 Cor. 15:54f.).

Response to Argument from Tradition.

Even though Roman Catholic theologian Ott admits that the primary proof for the existence of purgatory comes from the testimony of the church fathers, he does not hesitate to reject the testimony of the majority of Fathers on other occasions. He notes that “the Fathers, with few exceptions, vouch for the miraculous character of Christ’s birth [e.g., birth without pain or penetrating the hymen]. However, the question is whether in so doing they attest a truth of Revelation or whether they wrongly interpret a truth of Revelation.†This is a good question and one which we ask of the doctrine of purgatory as well. Indeed, as we have seen in examining the biblical passages used to support the dogma of purgatory, Catholic schol have misinterpreted Scripture.

In reading through Ott, a standard Catholic authority on dogma, it is interesting to note how many times he admits that this doctrine “is not explicitly revealed in Scripture†or that “direct and express scriptural proofs are not to be had†or “express scriptural proofs are lacking.†These phrases are more than a hint to the fact that purgatory has no basis in Scripture.

 

[evanman]

The dogma of "purgatory" was first proclaimed and established by one called Gregory in the latter part of the 5th century.

Purgatory was not "required" for the first 5 centuries of the church!

 

[William Putnam]

The dogma of "purgatory" was first proclaimed and established by one called Gregory in the latter part of the 5th century.

Purgatory was not "required" for the first 5 centuries of the church!

I offer the following for your reading pleasure:

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/purg.htm

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

[Monkey Del]

Deleted( wrong forum)

 

[William Putnam]

Bill,

What does "must be" mean to you?

You again?

I have no idea...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

 

[brettsamuel]

Personally, I don't believe that the doctrine of purgatory makes any sense at all. When you are saved you are saved, although I, contrary to many people in this forum, believe that you can fall from grace such that you loose salvation, I believe that so long as you are indeed saved then you're going to heaven. What is the point of purgatory. I know that purge means to purge your body from sin, yes, but I believe that the sacrifice has been made, there is no need to punish you or hold you back. Besides, purgatory isn't in my bible anywhere. If you could show me, without using "holy tradition" to prove it then I would be really impressed. I don't believe that it is against the doctrine of eternal judgement though.. I mean we will all eventually be judged. LOL

 

[evanman]

The dogma of "purgatory" was first proclaimed and established by one called Gregory in the latter part of the 5th century.

Purgatory was not "required" for the first 5 centuries of the church!

I offer the following for your reading pleasure:

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/purg.htm

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Dear Bill. Iread the quotes on the link you gave. It was a collection of some of the best examples of Montanism that I have ever seen!

The rest were some of the biggest affirmations of the truth of scripture I have also ever read:




Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

 

[fcs25]

:o How does the doctrine of purgatory not destroy the doctrine of the sufficiency of Christ death on the cross?Does this doctrine in fact infer that the death and blood of Christ wasn't enought to satisfy God :that more has to be done.I don't believe there exist any way to justify this from scripture.

 

[SavedSinner]

Re: Roman Catholic errors about purgatory

[quote="William Putnam"

Matthew 12:32 "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son
of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak
against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in
this world, nor in the world to come."

[/quote]




If I may ask,how does this verse point to puratory?

 

[William Putnam]

Re: Roman Catholic errors about purgatory

Matthew 12:32 "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son
of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak
against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in
this world, nor in the world to come."

If I may ask,how does this verse point to puratory?

Reluctantly coming out of "lurk mode" to reply to this belated post, I offer the following explanation:

The quote speaks of a sin so serious, not only will it will not be forgiven in "this world," it will not be forgiven "in the world to come."

What is "the world to come," sir? the Spiritual world, where we will all go at our death, at the end of the world, either in heaven or in hell.

But note the implication that if this sin is so serious that it cannot be absolved "in the world to come," then there must be lesser sins that can be so forgiven - in the world to come.

Where? Not in heaven because no one can enter in a state of sin there.

And not hell either, as there is no forgiveness, ever, when one receives the punishment that eternal in hell.

So where then?

We call it the "Vestibule of heaven".............PURGATORY!

Back to "lurk" mode............... :B-fly:

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Rome has spoken, case is closed.

Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.

 

[Gary]

Rome spoke... and was wrong again

Matthew 12:32.

Roman Catholics’ use of this passage to support the concept of forgiveness of sins after death fails for several reasons.

First, the text is not speaking about forgiveness in the next life after suffering for sins but the fact that there will be no forgiveness for this sin in “the world to come†(Matt. 12:32). How can the denial that this sin will not ever be forgiven, even after death, be the basis for speculating that sins will be forgiven in the next life?

Also, purgatory involves only venial sins, but this sin is not venial; it is mortal, being eternal and unforgiveable. How can a statement about the unforgiveness of a mortal sin in the next life be the basis for an argument that non-mortal sins will be forgiven then?

What is more, the passage is not even speaking about punishment, which Roman Catholics argue will occur in purgatory. So how could this text be used to support the concept of purgatorial punishment?

Finally, even if this passage did imply punishment, it is not for those who will eventually be saved (as Roman Catholics believe is the case with those who go to purgatory) but for those who never will be saved.

Again, how can a passage not speaking about punishment for the saved after death be used as a basis for belief in purgatory, which affirms punishment for the saved? In view of these strong differences, it is strange indeed that Roman Catholic scholars cite it in support of the doctrine of purgatory.

It only indicates the lack of real biblical support for the doctrine.

 

[Rebecka]

Back to "lurk" mode...............

LOL

 

[Catholic Convert]

Nothing uncleansed can enter Heaven. Purgatory cleanses you of spiritual imperfections and makes you clean & ready for heaven.

I don't see Purgatory to go against the doctrine of eternal judgement.

(I'm one of few Catholics here I suppose)

 

[evanman]

The only thing that could be described as "Purgatory" to actually exist is the time we spend on earth. If you are not justified before you die, then you won't be justified after you die!

 

[Catholic Convert]

When you die you have a chance to be saved, and if you reject God then you are sent to hell.

If your a fairly good person and don't reject God you are sent to Purgatory to be cleansed and made ready to heaven.

I'm not sure how much is actually known about this doctrine and I really only know what it is.