Purposefully distorting Paul's writings.

[Scotth1960]

Friends, I don't know what you mean by purposefully distorting Paul's writings. Yes, St. Paul's 13 letters are a part of the NT Canon.
Martin Luther added the non-Greek, non-NT word "alone" to the text of Romans 3:28. Do you consider it a distortion of Paul's writings in the NT to affirm that the word "alone" is not in the KJV Bible translation or in the original Greek NT. Only in Martin Luther's Bible does Romans 3:28 contradict James 2:24. Which says "not by faith alone". Just wondering whether you consider it "orthodoxy" (sic) to affirm that St. Paul teaches "solafideism" (by "faith alone"). Well, Christians disagree on this, and those who don't teach "sola fide" are not heretics. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[Alabaster]

Rom 3:28 Therefore3767 we conclude3049 that a man444 is justified1344 by faith4102 without5565 the deeds2041 of the law.3551


Jam 2:24 Ye see3708 then5106 how3754 that by1537 works2041 a man444 is justified,1344 and2532 not3756 by1537 faith4102 only.3440



G3440
μόνον
monon
mon'-on
Neuter of G3441 as adverb; merely: - alone, but, only.


James 2:23-24 NLT
And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.

Without faith you only have dead works. Luther had a revelation of this, praise God.

 

[Scotth1960]

Jam 2:24 Ye see3708 then5106 how3754 that by1537 works2041 a man444 is justified,1344 and2532 not3756 by1537 faith4102 only.3440



G3440
μόνον
monon
mon'-on
Neuter of G3441 as adverb; merely: - alone, but, only.

Alabaster!
Consider this please.
"Luther took the opportunity afforded him in his self-appointed role of translator of the Bible into German, to add and delete words from the Bible to bolster his ideological-theological revolutionary agenda. (1) For instance, he decided to strengthen some of his favorite passages, like Romans Chapter 3, and weaken others. He added the word "only" to key Biblical passages in which he revised such sentences such as: you are saved only by faith, or you are saved by faith alone. These essential forgeries provided Luther with the "proofs" he needed to bolster his evolving and creatively innovative theology. (2)
"In 1529, Dr. Link, the pre-eminent German language scholar of the day, wrote to Luther asking him why he had been inserting words into the German Bible. Luther's astonishing written answer nicely sums up the heart of the Protestant problem of individualistic subjectivity. "It is so because Dr. Martin Luther says it is so!" ...
[pages 76-77: DANCING ALONE: The Quest For Orthodox Faith in the Age of False Religion. Frank Schaeffer. Salisbury, MA: Regina Orthodox Press, Copyright 2002.]:nod


Notes.
1. Please see Georges Florovsky, The Byzantine Ascetic and Spiritual Fathers (Belmont, MA, 1987), for a detailed study of the Reformation interpretation of the writings of St. Paul.
2. "Luther went so far as to insert the word "alone" into his translation of Romans 3:28 making it read: "that man is justified without the works of the law, through faith alone". While he defended the insertion ... his critics attacked him for "lacerating and falsifying" (Ec. Enchir. 5 C Cath 34:97-98)) not only the biblical text but the biblical doctrine." Jaroslav Pelikan, Reformation of Church and Dogma, p. 252.

 

[Alabaster]

Luther had a revelation of truth that the gospel of works he was steeped in had clouded over.

 

[jasoncran]

scott instead answering with the orthodox if you have a better or correct greek translation post that.

after all are you not pushing the greek bible as the best.
and alabaster used greek for her view quite well. unless you think her koine greek source is corrupt.

 

[Scotth1960]

scott instead answering with the orthodox if you have a better or correct greek translation post that.

after all are you not pushing the greek bible as the best.
and alabaster used greek for her view quite well. unless you think her koine greek source is corrupt.

If you have access to the Greek NT, you can find out on your study that the word "alone" is not in Romans 3:28. You can also see in Hebrews 6:6 that the word "if" from the KJV translation is not in the Greek NT. Just quoting Greek doesn't prove much. We have accurate Bible translations, and even the KJV is mostly correct in most places. But Luther's Bible was a distortion at least in Romans 3:28.
:nod

 

[jasoncran]

If you have access to the Greek NT, you can find out on your study that the word "alone" is not in Romans 3:28. You can also see in Hebrews 6:6 that the word "if" from the KJV translation is not in the Greek NT. Just quoting Greek doesn't prove much. We have accurate Bible translations, and even the KJV is mostly correct in most places. But Luther's Bible was a distortion at least in Romans 3:28.
:nod

well then that verse in the kjv is accurate then.

and reread the entire posts by alabaster, romans 3:28 shouldn havent alone their it does in james.

 

[Alabaster]

If you have access to the Greek NT, you can find out on your study that the word "alone" is not in Romans 3:28. You can also see in Hebrews 6:6 that the word "if" from the KJV translation is not in the Greek NT. Just quoting Greek doesn't prove much. We have accurate Bible translations, and even the KJV is mostly correct in most places. But Luther's Bible was a distortion at least in Romans 3:28.
:nod

Heb 6:6 If they(2532) shall fall away,3895 to renew340 them again3825 unto1519 repentance;3341 seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh,388, 1438, 3588, 5207, 2316 and2532 put him to an open shame.3856


G2532
καί
kai
kahee
Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yea, yet.

 

[Scotth1960]

Heb 6:6 If they(2532) shall fall away,3895 to renew340 them again3825 unto1519 repentance;3341 seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh,388, 1438, 3588, 5207, 2316 and2532 put him to an open shame.3856


G2532
καί
kai
kahee
Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yea, yet.

Friend, I don't believe your source is accurate. The NASB has the correct translation. I don't believe there is a word "if" in the Greek. The bias of the translation of your source may be Calvinist. Not all translations have "if", so some translation must be right, and the ones with the "if" wrong. It depends on which Bible you want to trust. 3895 Wigram, the Word Study Concordance, doesn't have the word "if". It is missing from Wigram's text, interesting. It just have "shall fall away", "parapipto". Interesting that it is missing from Wigram's Greek concordance. It must not be in the Greek. They give no proof that it is in the Greek Bible. Also, what do all the Greek texts say? Are there any differences between versions of the Greek? Which one is the original? Beza is said to have been behind this word "if". Anyway, this verse does not have if in the ONT, and the ONT is a good version. It comes from the Church, and the Church can be trusted above the KJV. See: "and who fell away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify anew to themselves the Son of God and make a public example of Him." Heb. 6:6 ONT Not all Bibles have the word "if" in Heb. 6:6. There must be a good reason for not believing in the word "if". Doctrinal bias may be behind the KJV. Not all men had the same doctrine, and that is not good. Men should believe sound doctrine (St. Jude 3). In Erie Scott H.

 

[Drew]

Friends, I don't know what you mean by purposefully distorting Paul's writings. Yes, St. Paul's 13 letters are a part of the NT Canon.
Martin Luther added the non-Greek, non-NT word "alone" to the text of Romans 3:28. Do you consider it a distortion of Paul's writings in the NT to affirm that the word "alone" is not in the KJV Bible translation or in the original Greek NT. Only in Martin Luther's Bible does Romans 3:28 contradict James 2:24. Which says "not by faith alone". Just wondering whether you consider it "orthodoxy" (sic) to affirm that St. Paul teaches "solafideism" (by "faith alone"). Well, Christians disagree on this, and those who don't teach "sola fide" are not heretics. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

Romans 3:28 is simply a denial that the works of the Law of Moses are capable of justifying a Jew. Remember, only Jews were under the Law of Moses. Romans 3:28 is decidedly not a statement that "good works" are not necessary for justification / salvation - Paul has just asserted that good works are indeed necessary in Romans 2.

Paul is making the point that justification is not limited to Jews. That this is so is clearly demonstrated when verses 29 and 30 are read:

For (AT)we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

29Or (AU)is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed (AV)God (AW)who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith (AX)is one.

So Paul is not denying the role of "good deeds" in justification - he is denying ethnic exclusivity in respect to justification.

Now, Paul does indeed say that people are justified by faith. But one needs to read this in the light of the broader corpus of Pauline writings. We already know from Romans 2 that "persistence in doing good" is the basis for being awarded eternal life.

All things considered, I suggest that Paul's position is this: Those who by faith alone accept Christ are given the Holy Spirit which will transform them into the kind of people who persist in doing good and are given eternal life on that basis (Romans 2:6-7). So Paul can indeed truthfully say "we are justified by faith" and yet still affirm final salvation by "good deeds".
Again, the "works of the law" in 3:28 are not "good deeds" - they are the practices of the Law of Moses.

 

[Scotth1960]

Romans 3:28 is simply a denial that the works of the Law of Moses are capable of justifying a Jew. Remember, only Jews were under the Law of Moses. Romans 3:28 is decidedly not a statement that "good works" are not necessary for justification / salvation - Paul has just asserted that good works are indeed necessary in Romans 2.

Paul is making the point that justification is not limited to Jews. That this is so is clearly demonstrated when verses 29 and 30 are read:

For (AT)we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

29Or (AU)is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed (AV)God (AW)who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith (AX)is one.

So Paul is not denying the role of "good deeds" in justification - he is denying ethnic exclusivity in respect to justification.

Now, Paul does indeed say that people are justified by faith. But one needs to read this in the light of the broader corpus of Pauline writings. We already know from Romans 2 that "persistence in doing good" is the basis for being awarded eternal life.

All things considered, I suggest that Paul's position is this: Those who by faith alone accept Christ are given the Holy Spirit which will transform them into the kind of people who persist in doing good and are given eternal life on that basis (Romans 2:6-7). So Paul can indeed truthfully say "we are justified by faith" and yet still affirm final salvation by "good deeds".
Again, the "works of the law" in 3:28 are not "good deeds" - they are the practices of the Law of Moses.

Drew, Point well taken. While Scripture says, "Salvation is of the Jews", it is to "the Jew first", but not to the Jew only. Christ wants to save both Jews and Gentiles. Dispensationalism makes too much of Israel and separates Israel from the Church. That is a mistake. In Erie Scott H.

 

[Alabaster]

Friend, I don't believe your source is accurate. The NASB has the correct translation. I don't believe there is a word "if" in the Greek. The bias of the translation of your source may be Calvinist. Not all translations have "if", so some translation must be right, and the ones with the "if" wrong. It depends on which Bible you want to trust. 3895 Wigram, the Word Study Concordance, doesn't have the word "if". It is missing from Wigram's text, interesting. It just have "shall fall away", "parapipto". Interesting that it is missing from Wigram's Greek concordance. It must not be in the Greek. They give no proof that it is in the Greek Bible. Also, what do all the Greek texts say? Are there any differences between versions of the Greek? Which one is the original? Beza is said to have been behind this word "if". Anyway, this verse does not have if in the ONT, and the ONT is a good version. It comes from the Church, and the Church can be trusted above the KJV. See: "and who fell away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify anew to themselves the Son of God and make a public example of Him." Heb. 6:6 ONT Not all Bibles have the word "if" in Heb. 6:6. There must be a good reason for not believing in the word "if". Doctrinal bias may be behind the KJV. Not all men had the same doctrine, and that is not good. Men should believe sound doctrine (St. Jude 3). In Erie Scott H.

Eccelesiastes 12:12, friend.

 

[cyberjosh]

Friend, I don't believe your source is accurate. The NASB has the correct translation. I don't believe there is a word "if" in the Greek. The bias of the translation of your source may be Calvinist. Not all translations have "if", so some translation must be right, and the ones with the "if" wrong. It depends on which Bible you want to trust. 3895 Wigram, the Word Study Concordance, doesn't have the word "if". It is missing from Wigram's text, interesting. It just have "shall fall away", "parapipto". Interesting that it is missing from Wigram's Greek concordance. It must not be in the Greek. They give no proof that it is in the Greek Bible. Also, what do all the Greek texts say? Are there any differences between versions of the Greek? Which one is the original? Beza is said to have been behind this word "if". Anyway, this verse does not have if in the ONT, and the ONT is a good version. It comes from the Church, and the Church can be trusted above the KJV. See: "and who fell away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify anew to themselves the Son of God and make a public example of Him." Heb. 6:6 ONT Not all Bibles have the word "if" in Heb. 6:6. There must be a good reason for not believing in the word "if". Doctrinal bias may be behind the KJV. Not all men had the same doctrine, and that is not good. Men should believe sound doctrine (St. Jude 3). In Erie Scott H.

I don't want to take this too much on a tangent, but I also am fine with the NASB translation. However I hardly see how it matters whether kai is translated 'and' or 'if' in vs.6 because neither clearly changes the relationsip of verse 6 to the preceding verses starting in verse 4 or their meaning. Reading my NKJV I get the same impression as I would reading that same passage in the NASB, therefore I'm not exactly sure what you meant to point out by bringing this up. It's not that 'if' is missing its just a different translation of kai. You however seemed to imply that the other passage from Paul had an actual word missing (I have not looked into it). Just wondering what your point was here?

~Josh

 

[Scotth1960]

I don't want to take this too much on a tangent, but I also am fine with the NASB translation. However I hardly see how it matters whether kai is translated 'and' or 'if' in vs.6 because neither clearly changes the relationsip of verse 6 to the preceding verses starting in verse 4 or their meaning. Reading my NKJV I get the same impression as I would reading that same passage in the NASB, therefore I'm not exactly sure what you meant to point out by bringing this up. It's not that 'if' is missing its just a different translation of kai. You however seemed to imply that the other passage from Paul had an actual word missing (I have not looked into it). Just wondering what your point was here?

~Josh

Well, maybe I stand corrected if it actually is possible to translate the Greek word "kai" as "if", The question is: is that true? If distorts the message; these people did already fall away, they had fallen away from Christ, and become practicing Judaism again. They fell into disbelief. It is pointless to bother whether a Christian can lose salvation. Christians can fall away from God, because one doesn't lose free will after coming to God. One will not sin, with God's help. But it is possible to still sin, if one chooses to do that. In this case, it is a very serious thing. Once one has received a knowledge of the truth, one is responsible in living by what light one has. We all have to live up to a lot. It is not easy to produce good works, and obeying God only becomes easier after time with God's grace. We must grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is a gradual process of sanctification in Jesus Christ. In Erie Scott H.

 

[Alabaster]

With the Holy Spirit living in us and through us it isn't hard at all to do the works of God that he has purposed us to do. It is only hard when we strive in our flesh to live up to what we think a Christian should be doing.

Stop striving and start being what God is creating you to be. Strivers burn out.

Ephesians 2:10 NLT
For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

 

[Hawkins]

There's nothing wrong with the contexts. Paul's context means the same with or without the "alone". And James is right.

Paul is talking about the covenant. Faith (and repentence) is the only thing required to be saved in accordance to the covenant.

James further defines what kind of faith is needed. It is the kind of faith reflected by your actions/works which qualifies your faith.

Faith (implicitly repentence as well) alone is required by the covenant for you to be saved, which is the kind of faith reflected by what you do (not the devil's kind of belief, as James said).

So,
1) faith alone saves (Paul)
2) but only the kind of faith supported/reflected by your good works/actions (James)


Similarly, water baptism is one of these good works reflecting the qualified faith. Plus that water baptism is your own testimony which can be used in court cases when Satan accussing you of not entitling the Second Covenant.

Our Lord Jesus Christ keeps teaching us how to best secure our salvation status such that we will be under the protection of the Second Covenant.

 

[Scotth1960]

There's nothing wrong with the contexts. Paul's context means the same with or without the "alone". And James is right.

Paul is talking about the covenant. Faith (and repentence) is the only thing required to be saved in accordance to the covenant.

James further defines what kind of faith is needed. It is the kind of faith reflected by your actions/works which qualifies your faith.

Faith (implicitly repentence as well) alone is required by the covenant for you to be saved, which is the kind of faith reflected by what you do (not the devil's kind of belief, as James said).

So,
1) faith alone saves (Paul)
2) but only the kind of faith supported/reflected by your good works/actions (James)


Similarly, water baptism is one of these good works reflecting the qualified faith. Plus that water baptism is your own testimony which can be used in court cases when Satan accussing you of not entitling the Second Covenant.

Our Lord Jesus Christ keeps teaching us how to best secure our salvation status such that we will be under the protection of the Second Covenant.

Friend, According to St. Paul, faith alone does not save. James in James 2:24 says faith alone does not save. St. Paul says, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength, nor uncircumcision, but faith energizing itself through love". Galatians 5:6 ONT Orthodox New Testament, Copyright 2000, Holy Apostles Convent, Buena Vista, CO. It is "faith which worketh through love" which saves. Not faith alone. Love is greater than "faith alone" (1 Cor. 13:13). Love of God and keeping of His commandments is what is required of born again Christians according to Scripture. Saving faith (Eph. 2:8-9) which starts "without works" eventually ends up "with works" (Eph. 2:10). It depends on which stage of grace a Christian is in. In early days, Christians come by faith without doing many good works. Later, as they gradually obey the commandments and come into the ministry (under the leadership of the Church ministry) they will produce good works, which come only after they have receive the Church sacraments. In Erie Scott H.