Question about Hell

[Nathan]

Everyone who must face God needs glorification or die (disintegrate) on the spot. Even Moses was not allowed to see God in his flesh, or die. The unrighteous will need glorification to stand and face Him so they can be judged. They are raised from their graves, not from the spiritual confinement (Hades) where their spirits have been. It will be just like the righteous' resurrection, except they are raised to be condemned, not to the radiant glory of the eternal Kingdom life.

Psa 1:5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous;

Where do you find in the Bible it speaks of wicked people standing before God in "glorified" bodies?

 

[Alabaster]

Psa 1:5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous;

Where do you find in the Bible it speaks of wicked people standing before God in "glorified" bodies?

Psalm 1:5 means that the wicked will not stand JUSTIFIED before God in the coming Judgment.

'Glorified' is the only word that I can think of that shows that the wicked will need to be changed in order to withstand the terrible glory of God. But they will stand before Him and live through it.

Revelation 20:12 NLT
I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.

 

[Nathan]

Psalm 1:5 means that the wicked will not stand JUSTIFIED before God in the coming Judgment.

'Glorified' is the only word that I can think of that shows that the wicked will need to be changed in order to withstand the terrible glory of God. But they will stand before Him and live through it.

Revelation 20:12 NLT
I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.

Right. The wicked will not stand 'justified'. Which means they cannot receive bodies that are able to stand in the presence of God.

This verse seems to pose a contradiction, but it is the only verse that I know of that states, seemingly, that literal people will "stand" before God. But we cannot throw out the rest of the Bible in order to state that these people will stand before God. It can in a very real sense mean that they will "stand" as in they will not just be forgotten.

Their "deeds" can very well represent what is being stated here. The word used is a prolonged form of the word that means;

1) to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set
a) to bid to stand by, [set up]
1) in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin;
2) to place
b) to make firm, fix establish
1) to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place
2) to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape in safety
3) to establish a thing, cause it to stand
a) to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything
c) to set or place in a balance
1) to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed)

So while the word has many different meanings it could be used for, for instance a kingdom, we can state that because the rest of the Bible states that wicked people cannot be in the presence of God then we cannot take this one verse and make a whole doctrine out of it.

There is nothing contradictory about their "deeds" representing them and "standing" as what they had done. In fact, the verse seems to indicate this very thing. But, we have to say that it cannot contradict the rest of the Bible and that is key to understanding the whole issue.

 

[Alabaster]

Exodus 33:20 NLT
"But you may not look directly at my face, for no one may see me and live."

The wicked are raised from the grave--that means their bodies, nothing else, for their spirits are already somewhere else that God can easily gather them. he desires that the ungodly stand before them COMPLETE as created. they need to be changed to stand before Him. Glorification is the term I use for that change. Not fit for the kingdom, but fit to stand before the Just Judge.

 

[Nathan]

Exodus 33:20 NLT
"But you may not look directly at my face, for no one may see me and live."

The wicked are raised from the grave--that means their bodies, nothing else, for their spirits are already somewhere else that God can easily gather them. he desires that the ungodly stand before them COMPLETE as created. they need to be changed to stand before Him. Glorification is the term I use for that change. Not fit for the kingdom, but fit to stand before the Just Judge.

No worries over here on my part. I understand what you mean by "glorification" and I am not going to try and blast you on that point. But don't you think that because it is so hard to describe from that view there might be something wrong with it?

I believe that the wicked are raised. I do not buy into the idea that once they die then its all over with. I believe the wicked will go into the spiritual realm in full knowledge of its reality. In fact, I believe its then that they truly realize the reality of the spiritual realm because up until then all they 'dwell' in is the fleshly side of things.

But to 'stand' before God I do not believe is where they are. That is, unless, the judgement takes place outside of the dwelling place of God. But the fact is, wickedness cannot ever be in God's presence. Now, this leaves a whole lot of 'options', but regardless the bodies they are given are not like the ones given to the righteous. It cannot be. That is OUR hope, not theirs. It is OUR reward, not theirs.

I hope I do not come across as having understood all their is to know about the resurrection and judgment of the wicked. I honestly have not studied it that hard. But what I have studied, and know without a doubt, is that the wicked people are not immortal and they are not eternal. You will NEVER find them spoken of as such.

Now if you want to argue that hell is eternal, literally, and throughout eternity it will be burning and we will see the smoke of it; then we could debate that topic for a while. But to argue that it is like that, and therefore the souls their are like that, is like arguing that because Christ said---

Rev 22:13-15 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

---that He meant directly outside the city gates dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters are right there. We know this is not true, because they were cast into the lake of fire. So unless the "city" is on this island that is surrounded by the lake of fire, we have to understand that there are some things that are metaphors used for describing the condition of certain things that no one has actually seen but God Himself.

 

[Nathan]

Here is a simplistic approach to it. Hell was created for Satan and his rebellion.

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

So why was it created? For punishment and for destruction. There is no doubt that punishment will take place, we do not understand what kind, but it will take place. So the same is true with destruction. So the real question is what 'kind' of destruction?

Jude gives us an indication, along with several other places in the Bible. Each one of these examples make it clear that the "destruction" that takes place is not 'undo-able'. So the question then becomes does the destruction keep going on as in a 'literal' sense? As in, does it keep burning like you would just keep driving a car forever and ever?

I think Jude makes it clear that it does not. While it is eternal in nature, it is complete in its purpose. So the "kind" of destruction is eternal, the "purpose" of destruction is to accomplish something and therefore once it is accomplished it is no longer needed, and stays in that state for eternity.

Jud 1:5-7 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day--just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

So we see that Jesus is not still "destroying" those people who did not believe, they have been(past tense) destroyed. And Sodom and Gomorrah, are they still undergoing "eternal fire"? I doubt it, unless of course they are where an active volcano now exists.;)

But the reality is that we have a 'understanding' of what eternal fire means. It means that once they were destroyed they were NEVER rebuilt. They lay in ruins to this very day. How long ago was that? And how long will they stay in that condition? Eternally, thats how long. But they are not still 'being' destroyed.

Again, we see Peter give the same example, but he adds another one too it.

2Pe 2:4-6 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

We see the same thing with the flood. Is the flood still covering the earth? Or did it fulfill its purpose? Is it eternal in nature? Yes, it is eternal in nature. We know of it even today, but it is not still doing what it did....or is it?

It is, even today, it is still doing what it did. The ones who "died" are still dead. This is an eternal thing. They have not come back. Not a one of them. They will eternally be separate from the face of the earth, and they will be eternally separate from life again.

These are the "examples" given to us about punishment. But notice, hell and punishment are two separate things. Of course they go hand in hand, but they are separate things. All too often we conclude they are one in the same. But they are not. And we get mixed up in our thoughts about punishment with the description of hell. However, they are both eternal.

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Whats more interesting than all of this is the fact that we will NEVER find one place in the Bible that it speaks of a soul being;

1. Immortal
2. Eternal
3. Forever

We do find that souls can be given eternal life, but along with that, we find that only righteous souls are given that. So what about the others? The ungodly? You will never find them being given anything eternal. They will 'suffer' eternal things, but not be given to them.

2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Is this starting to make sense?

 

[Elijah674]

Here is a simplistic approach to it. Hell was created for Satan and his rebellion.

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

So why was it created? For punishment and for destruction. There is no doubt that punishment will take place, we do not understand what kind, but it will take place. So the same is true with destruction. So the real question is what 'kind' of destruction?

Jude gives us an indication, along with several other places in the Bible. Each one of these examples make it clear that the "destruction" that takes place is not 'undo-able'. So the question then becomes does the destruction keep going on as in a 'literal' sense? As in, does it keep burning like you would just keep driving a car forever and ever?

I think Jude makes it clear that it does not. While it is eternal in nature, it is complete in its purpose. So the "kind" of destruction is eternal, the "purpose" of destruction is to accomplish something and therefore once it is accomplished it is no longer needed, and stays in that state for eternity.

Jud 1:5-7 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day--just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

So we see that Jesus is not still "destroying" those people who did not believe, they have been(past tense) destroyed. And Sodom and Gomorrah, are they still undergoing "eternal fire"? I doubt it, unless of course they are where an active volcano now exists.;)

But the reality is that we have a 'understanding' of what eternal fire means. It means that once they were destroyed they were NEVER rebuilt. They lay in ruins to this very day. How long ago was that? And how long will they stay in that condition? Eternally, thats how long. But they are not still 'being' destroyed.

Again, we see Peter give the same example, but he adds another one too it.

2Pe 2:4-6 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

We see the same thing with the flood. Is the flood still covering the earth? Or did it fulfill its purpose? Is it eternal in nature? Yes, it is eternal in nature. We know of it even today, but it is not still doing what it did....or is it?

It is, even today, it is still doing what it did. The ones who "died" are still dead. This is an eternal thing. They have not come back. Not a one of them. They will eternally be separate from the face of the earth, and they will be eternally separate from life again.

These are the "examples" given to us about punishment. But notice, hell and punishment are two separate things. Of course they go hand in hand, but they are separate things. All too often we conclude they are one in the same. But they are not. And we get mixed up in our thoughts about punishment with the description of hell. However, they are both eternal.

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Whats more interesting than all of this is the fact that we will NEVER find one place in the Bible that it speaks of a soul being;

1. Immortal
2. Eternal
3. Forever

We do find that souls can be given eternal life, but along with that, we find that only righteous souls are given that. So what about the others? The ungodly? You will never find them being given anything eternal. They will 'suffer' eternal things, but not be given to them.

2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Is this starting to make sense?

:wavingOf Course! Just GONE, huh! Obad. 1:16
--Elijah

 

[tim-from-pa]

Just to say, I love your insights, Nathan. I agree with you. And talking about eternal fire and destruction, I also caught myself saying already that I burned a book I hated with eternal fire. Of course the fire is not burning today, but that the action of that fire totally destroyed the book. It's the action of the fire that is eternal.

 

[Nathan]

:wavingOf Course! Just GONE, huh! Obad. 1:16
--Elijah

Right. I thought there was another Scripture reference that is directly related with this topic, but it is not coming to mind. It speaks of the same as Obadiah, but for some reason I cannot pull it to memory. But it is something I do not dwell on. I prefer the 'other' side of the coin on this topic.

Just to say, I love your insights, Nathan. I agree with you. And talking about eternal fire and destruction, I also caught myself saying already that I burned a book I hated with eternal fire. Of course the fire is not burning today, but that the action of that fire totally destroyed the book. It's the action of the fire that is eternal.

And even though the book itself is not around anymore, I bet you still have a 'remembrance' of it in a way. So in that aspect, the fire is still consuming the book, and while the book is gone, it did exist and that is a fact that will never change.

Its a lot to think about, no small subject matter here. But I really do not spend much time thinking about it except when some consider "probation perdition" a possibility. That is an insane line of thinking. There are only two places to go after the life in the flesh is over. And there is a fixed gulf between them. There will be no passing from one side to the other.

 

[Alabaster]

No worries over here on my part. I understand what you mean by "glorification" and I am not going to try and blast you on that point. But don't you think that because it is so hard to describe from that view there might be something wrong with it?

I believe that the wicked are raised. I do not buy into the idea that once they die then its all over with. I believe the wicked will go into the spiritual realm in full knowledge of its reality. In fact, I believe its then that they truly realize the reality of the spiritual realm because up until then all they 'dwell' in is the fleshly side of things.

But to 'stand' before God I do not believe is where they are. That is, unless, the judgement takes place outside of the dwelling place of God. But the fact is, wickedness cannot ever be in God's presence. Now, this leaves a whole lot of 'options', but regardless the bodies they are given are not like the ones given to the righteous. It cannot be. That is OUR hope, not theirs. It is OUR reward, not theirs.

God tells us the ungodly will stand before the Throne. I believe it. Indeed sin, or sinful acts cannot flourish, or remain in God's presence, but it certainly can approach there. Satan surely approached God regarding Job. The unrighteous will stand before Him as well...because He says so.

What do you mean our hope? My hope is that I stand before Jesus Christ's judgment seat and receive my reward. The GWT Judgment is not for the Bride.

I hope I do not come across as having understood all their is to know about the resurrection and judgment of the wicked. I honestly have not studied it that hard. But what I have studied, and know without a doubt, is that the wicked people are not immortal and they are not eternal. You will NEVER find them spoken of as such.

Having studied this for some years, and know that spirits are not subject to mortal death, we can be certain that the Lake of Fire has been created with that in mind.

Now if you want to argue that hell is eternal, literally, and throughout eternity it will be burning and we will see the smoke of it; then we could debate that topic for a while. But to argue that it is like that, and therefore the souls their are like that, is like arguing that because Christ said---

Rev 22:13-15 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

---that He meant directly outside the city gates dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters are right there. We know this is not true, because they were cast into the lake of fire. So unless the "city" is on this island that is surrounded by the lake of fire, we have to understand that there are some things that are metaphors used for describing the condition of certain things that no one has actually seen but God Himself.

The Lake of Fire is surely outside of the Kingdom. Its inhabitants continue with an identity, it is obvious, so annihilation is out of the question.

 

[Nathan]

God tells us the ungodly will stand before the Throne. I believe it. Indeed sin, or sinful acts cannot flourish, or remain in God's presence, but it certainly can approach there. Satan surely approached God regarding Job. The unrighteous will stand before Him as well...because He says so.

What do you mean our hope? My hope is that I stand before Jesus Christ's judgment seat and receive my reward. The GWT Judgment is not for the Bride.



Having studied this for some years, and know that spirits are not subject to mortal death, we can be certain that the Lake of Fire has been created with that in mind.



The Lake of Fire is surely outside of the Kingdom. Its inhabitants continue with an identity, it is obvious, so annihilation is out of the question.

I believe that they will stand also. I guess the question is in what state. The Bible does not say that their souls stand before God, and because there is so much said about the opposite, its hard to take one verse and make a doctrine out of it.

Satan approached God, but God in what form? We understand that God the Father dwells in "unapproachable light". That is, darkness is 'eliminated' when it comes into Almighty God's presence. However, we know that Christ can be approached. Even in His glorified body. Not only approached, but even touched.

My hope? Our hope? It is the resurrection of the body. The putting off of the temporal, and the receiving of the eternal. The wicked do not have that hope. It is a hope specific to children of God. Paul says it best;

1Cr 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

Whats the "and" in there for? Because Paul was making a distinction between two separate, but linked, parts of us. We are mortal beings. We live in perishable bodies.

The words "body" are not there in the Greek language. This is one of the translators 'additions'(which I have to say I am displeased with because it adds confusion). But regardless, in the original language it reads best in the KJV;

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

I would say, from this alone, one should understand that 'humans' (soul + body) are completely able to be as if they never were, just like any other thing of "creation". Only God can never be as if He never was.

The lake of fire IS outside the Kingdom. Thats just it. Its a 'relative' description of one thing verses another. Its called a "analogy". The righteous are here....the wicked are there....the two cannot be mixed together.

It would be like taking the parable of the virgins and saying that there are only going to be 5 literal people in heaven and 5 literal people in hell. Understanding takes some reasoning. I understand its hard to understand, especially when you have been taught the opposite for so long. I have yet to meet anyone else I know personally(except for on this site) that believes this truth.

It just goes to show how far we take things without actually studying them to their full conclusion.

Ask yourself this; where does it directly state that humans, souls, or both have immortality now? Now, ask yourself where it states that wicked humans, souls, or both will receive immortality? You wont find it. I have looked. Trust me, but please search for yourself. Don't take my word for it, but let my seemingly foolish thoughts drive you to prove this wrong.

 

[Nathan]

Its not really "annihilation", its called "re-creation". That is what is promised. Where nothing evil dwells.

2Pe 3:10-13 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

The old is said to be "gone".

Isa 65:17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.

The "or" is significant because we think of 'remembered' as a human thought process. But in reality, that is what "come into mind" deals with. "Shall not be remembered" deals with the fact of it being underly gone. It cannot be remembered because there will be nothing of it left.

Rev 21:1-4 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."

God "created" everything. All of it. That means there was literally nothing in existence before God. So, where would you 'put' hell for eternity? Off in the corner somewhere? No. It cannot happen. Hell is an eternal thing, but only in the completeness of it. When contemplating this we must take into consideration all aspects of it. It is no small wonder why you find this idea of punishment and finality of the dwelling place of man woven throughout the entire Bible. From beginning to end.

Some may say that its one of those things that should be left to "agree to disagree". And while I will never beat anyone over the head with this, it stands to reason that it is an important 'stone' in the foundation of our faith.

Hbr 6:1-6 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits.

The fact is, if it is an "elementary" doctrine, then it must be pivotal in how we view other aspects of our faith. It would be like taking a group of 3rd graders and teaching them physics when they have not even learned the 'truth' of division yet. Facts have to be built upon facts. And this is an elementary fact.

 

[Alabaster]

Where are the wicked dead now? They are in their graves, and their spirits are in Hades and awaiting their bodily resurrection for Judgment.

Job 21:29-32 NLT
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-13360">29</sup> But ask those who have been around,
and they will tell you the truth.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-13361">30</sup> Evil people are spared in times of calamity
and are allowed to escape disaster.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-13362">31</sup> No one criticizes them openly
or pays them back for what they have done.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-13363">32</sup> When they are carried to the grave,
an honor guard keeps watch at their tomb.

2 Peter 2:9 NLT
So you see, the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials, even while keeping the wicked under punishment until the day of final judgment.