Question About Holy Communion

[Willie T]

i am willing to listen with a open mind.. i may not agree but i do not judge...

It's not a matter of judging. (I don't even sweat that with you) It really is that it would take too long to explain (besides people cutting me down before I even got half-way through) that it would be a monumental effort that I honestly don't feel like tackling.

Suffice it to say that the book Come to The Table covers some of it, though I bring it more back to what WE are doing in Communion than that author does (He focuses a lot on what God is doing during our Communion.)

 

[stovebolts]

I enjoyed it. I have come to see a lot more about Communion, but he says some good stuff.

I enjoyed how he brings out the idea that just as the alter grounds the table, the cross, which served the same purpose as the alter, also grounds the table.
I've spoken much on this as a monthly table speaker. He really brings out the depth of the table.

 

[Willie T]

OK, I will take a chance, and start very slowly to approach this. But that will come later. Not up to it right now.

 

[Papa Zoom]

OK, I will take a chance, and start very slowly to approach this. But that will come later. Not up to it right now.

Okay, I'm listening too.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Just a reminder as we discuss Holy Communion
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Forum Description:
A Place for Histories of Christian Churches,
Beginnings and or Movements,
Discussion not Debate ..Hard Moderated ..See Sticky,
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This topic is fine here as it certainly has historical context. Let's then share our views, discuss, but NO debating. Yeah, it's a seriously moderated forum according to the forum rules. Which means debating is not okay in any measure. But discussion is.

How to disagree:

Instead of "I disagree" or "that's just wrong"

Say: "The way I have understood it is this way.........:

See? We will have differences because of our difference in backgrounds and traditions.

 

[Willie T]

If I was one who cared about people... the poor, the marginalized, the downtrodden, etc, and knowing I was going to soon die, asked you to "remember me"............ What would you think I meant? Remember that I was not into having people faun over how good and great I was. I always asked you to look out for one another.

I will continue my thoughts after all the heavy-duty Easter activities of today are behind us... probably tomorrow morning. In the meantime we will all have a chance to reread the admonishments given concerning specific behaviors engaged in at the Communion meals the 1st-century church observed. I think THOSE things might really be a major portion of "taking the Lord's Supper unworthily."

 

[stovebolts]

In the meantime we will all have a chance to reread the admonishments given concerning specific behaviors engaged in at the Communion meals the 1st-century church observed. I think THOSE thing might really be a major portion of "taking the Lord's Supper unworthily."

I've always read that as community. It will be good to hear your thoughts.

 

[Willie T]

i am willing to listen with a open mind.. i may not agree but i do not judge...

No, on second thought, I won't be saying a word.
In the past few days, I have begun to see a sadly disturbing pattern very rapidly developing in the oppressive censorship here, and I figure that someone is gunning for me, and anything I say will probably get me banned.

 

[ezra]

No, on second thought, I won't be saying a word.
In the past few days, I have begun to see a sadly disturbing pattern very rapidly developing in the oppressive censorship here, and I figure that someone is gunning for me, and anything I say will probably get me banned.

send it to me email ..i look at this way they want to ban me so be it their loss i have other places to post..i do like the members here better ..but not my first rodeo

 

[ezra]

the important thing in Communion 1. have your house set in order. 2 treat it in the sacredness it should be took in spirit and truth that is why i oppose every sunday it can turn to a ritual like singing songs

 

[Truthfrees]

I am a member of a small country Lutheran church. Formerly ALC, merged when the ELCA was formed, and then broke ties with the ELCA a few years ago. We have been an independent congregation ever since. Our pastor, who remained a member of the ELCA in an effort to continue efforts to bring about reform, has recently announced his pending retirement at the end of May. I won't go into details but It was not entirely his choice as there were complications that began to arise over the past year or two and part of his decision came about due to pressure by some members expressing their disapproval of things he has been doing/teaching and things that he was failing to do as our pastor.

In a meeting that I called this past Thursday evening (I'm our council chairperson), we talked about how we should not feel rushed to find a new pastor. Part of the reason is that when we broke ties with the ELCA we had it mind that eventually we would like to be part of another association and so maybe now is a good time to consider exploring that option. We also feel it is important that we wait to allow a little cooling off period and to allow some to mourn the loss of our pastor before we look at calling a new pastor. We decided to look at forming a call committee so we can begin to lay out our needs and expectations with the goal of probably putting out the call sometime late this fall.

In the mean time, it was brought up that we need an interim pastor in part so he/she can administer Holy Communion. This brought up a question in my mind. Does it require an ordained pastor to do this? When I read Scripture, I don't see where it is instructed that this is necessary. As far as I can tell, Jesus just said that whenever we do it we are to it in memory of Him. One thought we had was that we could call on our deacons fulfill this role in absence of a pastor.

For my part, I don't see any reason why we can't.

Thoughts?

absolutely agree - scripture does not mention anyone administering communion

actually scripture speaks of eating a meal and taking the bread and wine as part of that meal

that is what we do at our synagogue - we take bread and wine and a meal together on shabbat

we have also started doing this at wof church too - at church different people lead us in taking bread and wine - so that many get a chance to administer it

(i attend synagogue on shabbat and church on sunday)

 

[andy pandy]

I am a member of a small country Lutheran church. Formerly ALC, merged when the ELCA was formed, and then broke ties with the ELCA a few years ago. We have been an independent congregation ever since. Our pastor, who remained a member of the ELCA in an effort to continue efforts to bring about reform, has recently announced his pending retirement at the end of May. I won't go into details but It was not entirely his choice as there were complications that began to arise over the past year or two and part of his decision came about due to pressure by some members expressing their disapproval of things he has been doing/teaching and things that he was failing to do as our pastor.

In a meeting that I called this past Thursday evening (I'm our council chairperson), we talked about how we should not feel rushed to find a new pastor. Part of the reason is that when we broke ties with the ELCA we had it mind that eventually we would like to be part of another association and so maybe now is a good time to consider exploring that option. We also feel it is important that we wait to allow a little cooling off period and to allow some to mourn the loss of our pastor before we look at calling a new pastor. We decided to look at forming a call committee so we can begin to lay out our needs and expectations with the goal of probably putting out the call sometime late this fall.

In the mean time, it was brought up that we need an interim pastor in part so he/she can administer Holy Communion. This brought up a question in my mind. Does it require an ordained pastor to do this? When I read Scripture, I don't see where it is instructed that this is necessary. As far as I can tell, Jesus just said that whenever we do it we are to it in memory of Him. One thought we had was that we could call on our deacons fulfill this role in absence of a pastor.

For my part, I don't see any reason why we can't.

Thoughts?

Communion is not supported by scripture. Do this in remembrance of me is only in one gospel Luke, and you never form a doctrine with one verse of scripture. Jesus presided over a meal, that was held once a year, not a ritual that is conducted every week.

The Corinthian passage that is claimed to be authority for communion is not dealing with communion. It is dealing with the behaviour of the Christians when they come together for a meal. The richer believers were abusing the poorer ones by eating before the poorer ones could be there and partake of the meal. Paul was telling them to wait and then share their food with those who could not contribute to the meal.

Those that say it is about communion forget that it was talking about a meal not a sip of wine and piece of bread.

In Acts 2 v 48 it talks abut breaking bread together. Having studied the culture of New Testament times, to break bread is to sit down to a meal. If I met you in the street and invited you round for a meal I would ask you to break bread with me. That di not meal a sip of wine and a piece of bread.

I have read many books on the life and times of the New Testament Church and not one of them indicate anything about a sip of wine and a piece of bread.

Acts 20 v 7. Again breaking of bread here is talking about a meal, not a sip/piece of bread.

 

[andy pandy]

As long as we understand that there is a hierarchy in the church, that there always has been, and the pastor is the head of the of the church. So they do have a special position because they have a special responsibility, as do all who are elders, and the deacons under them.

There is nowhere in scripture that says the pastor is head of the church. Having studied New Testament Church leadership in depth, it is the province of the apostles, prophets and the elders. Paul told Timothy to appoint Elders, not Pastors. In addition there are 26 verses in the new testament that talk about leadership and not one of them mentions pastors.

Apart from the fact that the New Testament Church never brought a leader from outside the church to rule it. It was always presided over by Elders from within the church who had proved themselves (see Timothy)

 

[for_his_glory]

Paul gives directions regarding the Lord’s Supper in 1Corinthians 11:23-29. Some have misunderstood verse 26, which says: "As often as ye eat this bread and drink this cup," and interpret it to say "take it as often as you please" But it does not say that!

It says "as often" as we observe it, "ye do show the LORD’S DEATH till He come." And Jesus commanded, "This do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me." (Verse 25.) We do it in remembrance of THE LORD’S DEATH - a memorial of His death. And memorials of momentous occasions always are observed annually, once a year, on the ANNIVERSARY of the event they commemorate.

Jesus instituted this New Testament ordinance ON THE EVE OF HIS DEATH. It was the 14th Abib, March/April Hebrew Lunar calendar. He was our Passover, sacrificed for us and He was sacrificed on the same exact day of the year that the Passover lambs always had been slain! As the Old Testament Passover commemorated Israel’s deliverance from Egypt, a type of sin, so the New Testament Lord’s Supper is a continuation of the Passover with different emblems commemorates Jesus' death, and our deliverance from sin. Immediately after the last Supper, Jesus and His disciples went out to Gethsemane, where, later that night, Judas Iscariot led the bloodthirsty mob who seized Jesus, and led him away to be crucified during the daylight part of the same 14th day of the month of Abib.​

 

[andy pandy]

Paul gives directions regarding the Lord’s Supper in 1Corinthians 11:23-29. Some have misunderstood verse 26, which says: "As often as ye eat this bread and drink this cup," and interpret it to say "take it as often as you please" But it does not say that!

It says "as often" as we observe it, "ye do show the LORD’S DEATH till He come." And Jesus commanded, "This do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me." (Verse 25.) We do it in remembrance of THE LORD’S DEATH - a memorial of His death. And memorials of momentous occasions always are observed annually, once a year, on the ANNIVERSARY of the event they commemorate.

Jesus instituted this New Testament ordinance ON THE EVE OF HIS DEATH. It was the 14th Abib, March/April Hebrew Lunar calendar. He was our Passover, sacrificed for us and He was sacrificed on the same exact day of the year that the Passover lambs always had been slain! As the Old Testament Passover commemorated Israel’s deliverance from Egypt, a type of sin, so the New Testament Lord’s Supper is a continuation of the Passover with different emblems commemorates Jesus' death, and our deliverance from sin. Immediately after the last Supper, Jesus and His disciples went out to Gethsemane, where, later that night, Judas Iscariot led the bloodthirsty mob who seized Jesus, and led him away to be crucified during the daylight part of the same 14th day of the month of Abib.​

And in the gospels record three of the four either do not make mention of it and those who do do not say do this in remembrance of me in the original Greek. So the basis of their argument is very flimsy and contrary to good exegesis.

 

[for_his_glory]

andy pandy we do many things in remembrance of Christ like in particular that of His birth, death and resurrection. It's all in honoring that which Christ has done for us, not that we have to, but that we want to honor Him.

 

[andy pandy]

andy pandy we do many things in remembrance of Christ like in particular that of His birth, death and resurrection. It's all in honoring that which Christ has done for us, not that we have to, but that we want to honor Him.

That ia fine with me but I don't like it whe people take a verse or passage of scripture and make it say what it doesn't say. If you do that once where will it all end up? Well as we know we are at the stage where denominatrional doctrine has a higher priority than the word of God.

I remember being in a small Baptist Church that desperately needed new people. To be a member you had to read the Baptist rule book and agree with it. I read it and told them I could not agree with it because there were 31 things in it that were not sanctioned by scripture. If I agreed with it all I would be doing would be agreeing to Baptist dogma.

They then said I could not be a member because I did not attend enough communion services. I poined out to them that apart from the pastor himself I attended more communion services than anyone else in the church.

No mention of the prayer meeting where it was the pastor, me and one other.

An example of where dogma takes over from the word of God. The church is there to build the kingdom of God, not the kingdom of Baptists.

 

[for_his_glory]

That ia fine with me but I don't like it whe people take a verse or passage of scripture and make it say what it doesn't say. If you do that once where will it all end up? Well as we know we are at the stage where denominatrional doctrine has a higher priority than the word of God.

I remember being in a small Baptist Church that desperately needed new people. To be a member you had to read the Baptist rule book and agree with it. I read it and told them I could not agree with it because there were 31 things in it that were not sanctioned by scripture. If I agreed with it all I would be doing would be agreeing to Baptist dogma.

They then said I could not be a member because I did not attend enough communion services. I poined out to them that apart from the pastor himself I attended more communion services than anyone else in the church.

No mention of the prayer meeting where it was the pastor, me and one other.

An example of where dogma takes over from the word of God. The church is there to build the kingdom of God, not the kingdom of Baptists.

I don't see anywhere that I made any scripture say what I wanted it to say.

Paul wrote this "do in remembrance of me" in 1Cor 11:24-26, but Matthew nor Mark wrote that which was suppose to be what Jesus spoke as He quoted from Exodus 12:14 as Christ Passover is also a memorial we need to keep in remembrance of what He sacrificed for all of us until He returns.

Old Testament Passover commemorated Israel’s deliverance from Egypt, a type of sin, so the New Testament Lord’s Supper is a continuation of the Passover with different emblems commemorates Jesus' death, and our deliverance from sin.

 

[andy pandy]

I don't see anywhere that I made any scripture say what I wanted it to say.

Paul wrote this "do in remembrance of me" in 1Cor 11:24-26, but Matthew nor Mark wrote that which was suppose to be what Jesus spoke as He quoted from Exodus 12:14 as Christ Passover is also a memorial we need to keep in remembrance of what He sacrificed for all of us until He returns.

Old Testament Passover commemorated Israel’s deliverance from Egypt, a type of sin, so the New Testament Lord’s Supper is a continuation of the Passover with different emblems commemorates Jesus' death, and our deliverance from sin.

Yers, I have heard that at least 3,000 times and that is what I used to believe until I started delving into the life and times of the New Testament Church. As I always do, I have read numerous books regarding the subject matter to get a broad overview of the topic. This is what I found out.

1. The NTC would have no concept of eating a piece of bread and drinking a sip of wine. It was always in the context of a meal as the Passover meal was.

2. Do this does not say "do this every Sunday". In fact only one gospel said do this. That means three didn't so it is doubtful that it was said at all.

3. One has to find scripture to support a weekly sip of wine and a piece of bread. So far there is none.

4. The term breaking of bread in middle eastern tradition means a meal. Not a sip of wine or a piece of bread.

5. In middle eastern tradition, a meal always started with the head of the house breaking up a loaf of bread and giving a piece to everyone, hence the term.

6. To invite someone round to break bread, it would be an insult to give them a sip of wine and a piece of bread.

7. Those that say Jesus started communion at the passover meal forget that it was a meal and only held once a year.

8. The passage in Corinthians is mainly about how the believers conducted themselves when they came together for a communal meal.

9. The NTC was noticable for how much they loved one another. How did they do that? One way was they provided a meal every evening for the members who were poor or had not eaten that day. That was known as breaking of bread.

10. Acts 2 tells us that the NTC came together for four things one of which was breakikng of bread and one other was fellowship. They fellowshipped round a meal, prepared and cooked by members of the fellowship. The apostle's teaching was discussed during this time and they also prayed.

11. The sip of wine and the piece of bread came into being when Constantine legalized christianity and made it the national religion of the Roman Empire.

12. So as you can see if you do your homework as I have done, breaking of bread is a meal, not an esoteric bit of bread and a sip of wine.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yers, I have heard that at least 3,000 times and that is what I used to believe until I started delving into the life and times of the New Testament Church. As I always do, I have read numerous books regarding the subject matter to get a broad overview of the topic. This is what I found out.

1. The NTC would have no concept of eating a piece of bread and drinking a sip of wine. It was always in the context of a meal as the Passover meal was.

2. Do this does not say "do this every Sunday". In fact only one gospel said do this. That means three didn't so it is doubtful that it was said at all.

3. One has to find scripture to support a weekly sip of wine and a piece of bread. So far there is none.

4. The term breaking of bread in middle eastern tradition means a meal. Not a sip of wine or a piece of bread.

5. In middle eastern tradition, a meal always started with the head of the house breaking up a loaf of bread and giving a piece to everyone, hence the term.

6. To invite someone round to break bread, it would be an insult to give them a sip of wine and a piece of bread.

7. Those that say Jesus started communion at the passover meal forget that it was a meal and only held once a year.

8. The passage in Corinthians is mainly about how the believers conducted themselves when they came together for a communal meal.

9. The NTC was noticable for how much they loved one another. How did they do that? One way was they provided a meal every evening for the members who were poor or had not eaten that day. That was known as breaking of bread.

10. Acts 2 tells us that the NTC came together for four things one of which was breakikng of bread and one other was fellowship. They fellowshipped round a meal, prepared and cooked by members of the fellowship. The apostle's teaching was discussed during this time and they also prayed.

11. The sip of wine and the piece of bread came into being when Constantine legalized christianity and made it the national religion of the Roman Empire.

12. So as you can see if you do your homework as I have done, breaking of bread is a meal, not an esoteric bit of bread and a sip of wine.

It's not about the breaking of the bread, a sip of wine or a Passover meal, it's about the symbolism of the bread and the wine, being the bread representing the literal body of Christ that was beaten beyond recognition and torn for us and the blood that ran down from the top of His head to the bottom of the cross as He paid the price for our sin being made the last perfect sacrifice in fulfilling the sacrificial law of the Temple.

Exodus 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

Exodus Chapter 12 is God's instruction of the Passover feast that throughout all the generations the Jews are to keep as a memorial of the exodus that set them free in Egypt. Under the new dispensation of God's grace, Jesus is our Passover Lamb who made atonement for our sin as a scarified Lamb led to the slaughter. (Do this in remembrance of me).

Only Luke and Paul quoted Jesus saying "do this in remembrance of me", but neither one sat with Jesus at the Passover meal. Paul also wrote, and as often as you eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body, 1 Corinthians 11:26-29.

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1Cor 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
1Cor 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

It doesn't matter how often you take of the bread and the wine, but that you do it worthily and in remembrance of what Christ paid for us for the remission of our sins.