Question for Non-Trinitarians

[Sothenes]

Colossians 1:15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Colossians 1:16: For by him all things were created:

If Jesus was a created being then how did Jesus create Himself? It says,"For by him all things were created;"

 

[Georges]

1 Corinthians 1:15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Corinthians 1:16: For by him all things were created:

If Jesus was a created being then how did Jesus create Himself?

Ans...Jesus didn't create himself....God created him....

Too....easy S.....

Pay close attention and read this article very carefully...it seems I have to repeat myself way too often....

First allow me to cut and paste an artical concerning the Memra (a term you should familiarize yourself with) from http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com.

Memra:

"The Word," in the sense of the creative or directive word or speech of God manifesting His power in the world of matter or mind; a term used especially in the Targum as a substitute for "the Lord" when an anthropomorphic expression is to be avoided.


Biblical Data:

In Scripture "the word of the Lord" commonly denotes the speech addressed to patriarch or prophet (Gen. 15:1; Num. 12:6, 23:5; I Sam. 3:21; Amos 5:1-8); but frequently it denotes also the creative word: "By the word of the Lord were the heavens made" (Ps. 33:6; comp. "For He spake, and it was done"; "He sendeth his word, and melteth them [the ice]"; "Fire and hail; snow, and vapors; stormy wind fulfilling his word"; Ps. 33:9, 147:18, 148:8). In this sense it is said, "For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven" (Ps. 119:89). "The Word," heard and announced by the prophet, often became, in the conception of the seer, an efficacious power apart from God, as was the angel or messenger of God: "The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel" (Isa. 9:7 [A. V. 8], 55:11); "He sent his word, and healed them" (Ps. 107:20); and comp. "his word runneth very swiftly" (Ps. 147:15).

Personification of the Word.

In Apocryphal and Rabbinical Literature:

While in the Book of Jubilees, 12:22, the word of God is sent through the angel to Abraham, in other cases it becomes more and more a personified agency: "By the word of God exist His works" (Ecclus. [Sirach] 42:15); "The Holy One, blessed be He, created the world by the 'Ma'amar'" (Mek., Beshallaḥ, 10, with reference to Ps. 33:6). Quite frequent is the expression, especially in the liturgy, "Thou who hast made the universe with Thy word and ordained man through Thy wisdom to rule over the creatures made by Thee" (Wisdom 9:1; comp. "Who by Thy words causest the evenings to bring darkness, who openest the gates of the sky by Thy wisdom"; . . . "who by His speech created the heavens, and by the breath of His mouth all their hosts"; through whose "words all things were created"; see Singer's "Daily Prayer-Book," pp. 96, 290, 292). So also in IV Esdras 6:38 ("Lord, Thou spakest on the first day of Creation: 'Let there be heaven and earth,' and Thy word hath accomplished the work"). "Thy word, O Lord, healeth all things" (Wisdom 16:12); "Thy word preserveth them that put their trust in Thee" (l.c. 16:26). Especially strong is the personification of the word in Wisdom 18:15: "Thine Almighty Word leaped down from heaven out of Thy royal throne as a fierce man of war." The Mishnah, with reference to the ten passages in Genesis (ch. 1) beginning with "And God said," speaks of the ten "ma'amarot" (= "speeches") by which the world was created (Abot 5:1; comp. Gen. R. 4:2: "The upper heavens are held in suspense by the creative Ma'amar"). Out of every speech ["dibbur"] which emanated from God an angel was created (Ḥag. 14a). "The Word ["dibbur"] called none but Moses" (Lev. R. 1:4, 5). "The Word ["dibbur"] went forth from the right hand of God and made a circuit around the camp of Israel" (Cant. R. 1:13).

In the Targum:

In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divinepower, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity. Instead of the Scriptural "You have not believed in the Lord," Targ. Deut. 1:32 has "You have not believed in the word of the Lord"; instead of "I shall require it [vengeance] from him," Targ. Deut. 18:19 has "My word shall require it." "The Memra," instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. 9:3; comp. Targ. Isa. 30:27). The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. 32:35). "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. 6:7; comp. Targ. I Kings 18:24; Hos. 13:14; et al.). Not "God," but "the Memra," is met with in Targ. Ex. 19:17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. 25:22: "I will order My Memra to be there"). "I will cover thee with My Memra," instead of "My hand" (Targ. Ex. 33:22). Instead of "My soul," "My Memra shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. 26:30; comp. Isa. 1:14, 42:1; Jer. 6:8; Ezek. 23:18). "The voice of the Memra," instead of "God," is heard (Gen. 3:8; Deut. 4:33, 36; 5:21; Isa. 6:8; et al.). Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. 5:5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes a "sign between My Memra and you" (Ex. 31:13, 17; comp. Lev. 26:46; Gen. 9:12; 17:2, 7, 10; Ezek. 20:12). Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. 20:3), and to Balaam (Num. 23:4). His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. 23:21; Deut. 1:30, 33:3; Targ. Isa. 63:14; Jer. 31:1; Hos. 9:10 [comp. 11:3, "the messenger-angel"]). The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. 45:12). The Lord swears by His Memra (Gen. 21:23, 22:6, 24:3; Ex. 32:13; Num. 14:30; Isa. 45:23; Ezek. 20:5; et al.). It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. 6:6, 8:21; I Sam. 15:11, 35). Not His "hand," but His "Memra has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. 48:13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. 48:11; II Kings 14:34). Through the Memra God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. 26:90; II Kings 13:23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. 15:1), and is with Moses (Ex. 3:12; 4:12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. 10:35, 36; Isa. 63:14). It is the Memra, not God Himself, against whom man offends (Ex. 16:8; Num. 14:5; I Kings 8:50; II Kings 19:28; Isa. 1:2, 16; 45:3, 20; Hos. 5:7, 6:7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. 5:21, 6:2; Deut. 5:11); through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. 45:25); with the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. 22:24, 27); in the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. 15:6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. 14:31; Jer. 39:18, 49:11).

Mediatorship.

Like the Shekinah (comp. Targ. Num. 23:21), the Memra is accordingly the manifestation of God. "The Memra brings Israel nigh unto God and sits on His throne receiving the prayers of Israel" (Targ. Yer. to Deut. 4:7). It shielded Noah from the flood (Targ. Yer. to Gen. 7:16) and brought about the dispersion of the seventy nations (l.c. 11:8); it is the guardian of Jacob (Gen. 28:20-21, 35:3) and of Israel (Targ. Yer. to Ex. 12:23, 29); it works all the wonders in Egypt (l.c. 13:8, 14:25); hardens the heart of Pharaoh (l.c. 13:15); goes before Israel in the wilderness (Targ. Yer. to Ex. 20:1); blesses Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. 23:8); battles for the people (Targ. Josh. 3:7, 10:14, 23:3). As in ruling over the destiny of man the Memra is the agent of God (Targ. Yer. to Num. 27:16), so also is it in the creation of the earth (Isa. 45:12) and in the execution of justice (Targ. Yer. to Num. 33:4). So, in the future, shall the Memra be the comforter (Targ. Isa. 65:13): "My Shekinah I shall put among you, My Memra shall be unto you for a redeeming deity, and you shall be unto My Name a holy people" (Targ. Yer. to Lev. 22:12). "My Memra shall be unto you like a good plowman who takes off the yoke from the shoulder of the oxen"; "the Memra will roar to gather the exiled" (Targ. Hos. 11:5, 10). The Memra is "the witness" (Targ. Yer. 29:23); it will be to Israel like a father (l.c. 31:9) and "will rejoice over them to do them good" (l.c. 32: 41). "In the Memra the redemption will be found" (Targ. Zech. 12:5). "The holy Word" was the subject of the hymns of Job (Test. of Job, 12:3, ed. Kohler).

and from the http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com article on Messiah;

....The Heavenly Messiah.

The oldest apocalypse in which the conception of a preexistent heavenly Messiah is met with is the Messiological section of the Book of Enoch (xxxvii.-lxxi.) of the first century B.C. The Messiah is called "the Son of Man," and is described as an angelic being, his countenance resembling a man's, and as occupying a seat in heaven beside the Ancient of Days (xlvi. 1), or, as it is expressed in ch. xxxix. 7, "under the wings of the Lord of spirits." In ch. xlviii. 3, 6, xlix. 2b it is stated that "His name was called before the Lord of spirits before the sun and the signs of the zodiac were created, and before the stars of heaven weremade"; that "He was chosen and hidden with God before the world was created, and will remain in His presence forevermore" (comp. also lxii. 6); and that "His glory will last from eternity unto eternity and his might from generation unto generation" (that "his name" in xlviii. 3 means really "son of man" is evident from verse 6; comp. the similar use of "Shem Yhwh" for "Yhwh" in Isa. xxx. 27). He is represented as the embodiment of justice and wisdom and as the medium of all God's revelations to men (xlvi. 3; xlix. 1, 2a, 3). At the end of time the Lord will reveal him to the world and will place him on the throne of His glory in order that he may judge all creatures in accordance with the end to which God had chosen him from the beginning. When he rises for the judgment all the world will fall down before him, and adore and extol him, and give praise to the Lord of spirits. The angels in heaven also, and the elect in the Garden of Life, will join in his praise and will glorify the Lord. "He will judge all hidden things, and no one will be able to make vain excuses to him"; he will judge also Azazel, with all his associates and all his hosts. The wicked ones of the earth, especially all kings and potentates, he will give over to damnation, but for the just and chosen ones he will prepare eternal bliss, and he will dwell in their midst for all eternity (xlv. 3, 4; xlvi. 4-6; xlviii. 4-10; xlix. 4; li. 3; lv. 4; lxi. 7-lxii. 14).

....Heavenly Preexistence

The conception of the preexistent Messiah is met with in Pesiḳ. R. xxxiii., xxxvi. (pp. 152b, 162, ed. Friedmann; comp. Yalḳ. i. 339). In accordance with the Messiological section of Enoch the former of these two passages says: "At the beginning of the creation of the world was born the King Messiah, who mounted into God's thoughts before the world was made"; and in the latter passage it is related that God contemplated the Messiah and his works before the creation of the world and concealed him under His throne; that Satan, having asked God who the Light was under His throne, was told it was the one who would bring him to shame in the future, and, being then allowed, at his request, to see the Messiah, he trembled and sank to the ground, crying out, "Truly this is the Messiah who will deliver me and all heathen kings over to hell." God calls the Messiah "Ephraim, my righteous Messiah."
The preexistent Messiah is presented also in the Haggadah (Pes. 54a; Ned. 39a; Yalḳ. i. 20; et al.), where the name of the Messiah is included among the seven things created before the world was made, and where he is called "Yinnon," reference being made to Ps. lxxii. 17 (which passage probably was in the mind of the author of the Messiological section of Enoch when writing xlviii. 3).


It says,"For by him all things were created;"

That is correct....If Jesus is the Memra of God then he did create all things.

Urgh, S.....semantics again......Read the Memra and Messiah articles completely. If you care...go to http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com and read the complete articles on Memra and Messiah...both are very good.

 

[Sothenes]

1 Corinthians 1:15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Corinthians 1:16: For by him all things were created:

If Jesus was a created being then how did Jesus create Himself?

Ans...Jesus didn't create himself....God created him....

That is still a contradiction because 1 Corinthians 1:16 couldn't say "all" if God created Jesus.

John 1:3 All things were made through him. Without him was not anything made that has been made. (which would include Jesus)

 

[Georges]

1 Corinthians 1:15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Corinthians 1:16: For by him all things were created:

If Jesus was a created being then how did Jesus create Himself?

Ans...Jesus didn't create himself....God created him....

That is still a contradiction because 1 Corinthians 1:16 couldn't say "all" if God created Jesus.

Come on S.....what am I dealing here with...? Are you serious? Sky is blue...no it's not it's green...

It's not a contradiction at all....well maybe in your mind it is . Semantics.....God's Memra created all. God's speech (which is created) proceeds through his mouth and causes to create. S...your speech, which goes through your mouth is created. In this case God's spoken word (the Memra) is created and as the creative agent of God, exacts God's purpose....

Come on S.....

John 1:3 All things were made through him. Without him was not anything made that has been made. (which would include Jesus)

No that would not.....the whole 1st Chapter of John deals with God and his Memra.

Did you...or did you not read the entire 1st response...including the article on the Memra.....? As I said...it is important that you grasp that concept.

 

[Sothenes]

1 Corinthians 1:15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Corinthians 1:16: For by him all things were created:

If Jesus was a created being then how did Jesus create Himself?

Ans...Jesus didn't create himself....God created him....

That is still a contradiction because 1 Corinthians 1:16 couldn't say "all" if God created Jesus.

Come on S.....what am I dealing here with...? Are you serious? Sky is blue...no it's not it's green...

It's not a contradiction at all....well maybe in your mind it is . Semantics.....God's Memra created all. God's speech (which is created) proceeds through his mouth and causes to create. S...your speech, which goes through your mouth is created. In this case God's spoken word (the Memra) is created and as the creative agent of God, exacts God's purpose....

Come on S.....

John 1:3 All things were made through him. Without him was not anything made that has been made. (which would include Jesus)

No that would not.....the whole 1st Chapter of John deals with God and his Memra.

Did you...or did you not read the entire 1st response...including the article on the Memra.....? As I said...it is important that you grasp that concept.

I think that is a contradiction too.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

1 Corinthians 1:15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Corinthians 1:16: For by him all things were created:

If Jesus was a created being then how did Jesus create Himself? It says,"For by him all things were created;"

"But to us there is but one God, The Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him" (1Cor.8:6)

Simply solve for the context of "all". The "all" that is OF the Father, can't, of course, include the Father. Likewise the "all" that is BY Christ, can't include Christ. The "all" that is of the Father, however, DOES include Christ, while the "all" that is BY Christ doesn't include the Father.

Another example of understanding the context of "all" in this manner, would be...

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Ro.3:23)

Does that "all" include Jesus? Isn't is understood that Jesus was "without sin"? So he doesn't come under "all" in the context.

 

[gingercat]

Jesus did not create Himself, God, His Father did.

 

[Georges]

1 Corinthians 1:15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Corinthians 1:16: For by him all things were created:

If Jesus was a created being then how did Jesus create Himself? It says,"For by him all things were created;"

"But to us there is but one God, The Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him" (1Cor.8:6)

Of course the Memra concept solves this also.....


Simply solve for the context of "all". The "all" that is OF the Father, can't, of course, include the Father. Likewise the "all" that is BY Christ, can't include Christ. The "all" that is of the Father, however, DOES include Christ, while the "all" that is BY Christ doesn't include the Father.or, Christ himself...

Another example of understanding the context of "all" in this manner, would be...

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Ro.3:23)

Does that "all" include Jesus? Isn't is understood that Jesus was "without sin"? So he doesn't come under "all" in the context.

If Jesus was 100% man, and he sinned, the Torah provides means of becoming righteous....so yes, he could (theoretically) sin and be found to be righteous...why? Because the Torah provides a means for atonement. Once the atonement, sins are wiped away.

Having said that, I believe upon his baptism, and his empowerment by the Holy Spirit (Isa 11:2), he was able to observe Torah perfectly. Therefore at least post baptism, he was/is without sin, or righteous.

Am I wrong here....?

 

[Sothenes]

If Jesus was 100% man, and he sinned, the Torah provides means of becoming righteous....so yes, he could (theoretically) sin and be found to be righteous...why? Because the Torah provides a means for atonement. Once the atonement, sins are wiped away.

Having said that, I believe upon his baptism, and his empowerment by the Holy Spirit (Isa 11:2), he was able to observe Torah perfectly. Therefore at least post baptism, he was/is without sin, or righteous.

Am I wrong here....?

No one teaches that.

 

[ChristineES]

I have some questions:

When Thomas says to Jesus after he rose again, what did he mean by "My Lord and My God"? was it a mistranslation? Do you believe he was not talking to Jesus but to God about Jesus being alive?

When Jesus said "before Abraham was, I AM"? Why would that make the Pharisees want to kill Jesus? Isn't "I AM that I AM" God's name translated (YHWH)? If that is not why, can you explain that to us?

If Jesus is not God, who is He? Is he Michael? Was He created in Mary's womb? If that is true what about the statement above (before Abraham was I Am) mean?

 

[Sothenes]

Simply solve for the context of "all". The "all" that is OF the Father, can't, of course, include the Father. Likewise the "all" that is BY Christ, can't include Christ. The "all" that is of the Father, however, DOES include Christ, while the "all" that is BY Christ doesn't include the Father.

Another example of understanding the context of "all" in this manner, would be...

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Ro.3:23)

Does that "all" include Jesus? Isn't is understood that Jesus was "without sin"? So he doesn't come under "all" in the context.

Interesting point but only if Jesus isn't "God" as pointed out by Romans 3:23.

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."-Hebrews 4:15

 

[Sothenes]

If Jesus was 100% man, and he sinned, the Torah provides means of becoming righteous....so yes, he could (theoretically) sin and be found to be righteous...why? Because the Torah provides a means for atonement. Once the atonement, sins are wiped away.

Having said that, I believe upon his baptism, and his empowerment by the Holy Spirit (Isa 11:2), he was able to observe Torah perfectly. Therefore at least post baptism, he was/is without sin, or righteous.

Am I wrong here....?

One of the words for atonement in the old testament only means 'covering' so that the sins are only temporarily covered. One of the words for the concept in the New Testament means that your sins are remitted or taken away. It is a different concept.

Without Jesus being God, there is no agent for baptism to work.

Baptism is a separate debate because this whole thread would be taken over on the subject of baptism but the word 'for' or 'eis' in the Greek means 'as a result of'. If I said to you, 'take an aspirin FOR a headache' it would not mean to take an aspirin FOR (To get) a headache but BECAUSE of (to take away) a headache. "For" is a causual/resultant. You have to look at the grammer in which the word is used. "...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins,..." should be translated "as a result of remission of sins" and there were people who received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44) before they were baptised (Acts 10:47-48) because it says,"through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" and it doesn't say,'through baptism in him shall receive remission of sins'. This is something I have studied and fought for years because I had neighbors who were from the Boston Church of Christ (a cult) and the idea that bapism saves is a view that has been competing with my evangelism. It is a view that I have successfully argued over the years so that I have answers to all the supposed "proof" texts that people would use. Baptism symbolizes death (Romans 6:3) and isn't part of Peter's second sermon in Acts.

If anyone wants to start a debate on baptism, they should do so in a different thread.

 

[mutzrein]

Why does a non-trinitarian have to believe that Jesus was created?

 

[Sothenes]

Why does a non-trinitarian have to believe that Jesus was created?

Do they have any other explanation?

 

[Georges]

If Jesus was 100% man, and he sinned, the Torah provides means of becoming righteous....so yes, he could (theoretically) sin and be found to be righteous...why? Because the Torah provides a means for atonement. Once the atonement, sins are wiped away.

Having said that, I believe upon his baptism, and his empowerment by the Holy Spirit (Isa 11:2), he was able to observe Torah perfectly. Therefore at least post baptism, he was/is without sin, or righteous.

Am I wrong here....?

No one teaches that.

Maybe it needs closer scrutiny......you have been taught by someone who taught them....and so on from the begining of doctrine formation.

Who of the Hellenist Gnostic, Mystery influenced Chuch fathers who developed Church doctrine would teach or expound on the Jewish line of thought?

1. The Nazarene Christians (James, Peter, and the boys at the Jerusalem Chruch believed Jesus to be fully man.
2. The Torah does provide several ways for sin to be atoned for. And there are circumstances where God forgives sin without atonement.
3. Once sins are forgiven, whether by atonement or not, they are forgotten and that person is considered to be righteous...

 

[Sothenes]

If Jesus was 100% man, and he sinned, the Torah provides means of becoming righteous....so yes, he could (theoretically) sin and be found to be righteous...why? Because the Torah provides a means for atonement. Once the atonement, sins are wiped away.

Having said that, I believe upon his baptism, and his empowerment by the Holy Spirit (Isa 11:2), he was able to observe Torah perfectly. Therefore at least post baptism, he was/is without sin, or righteous.

Am I wrong here....?

No one teaches that.

Maybe it needs closer scrutiny......you have been taught by someone who taught them....and so on from the begining of doctrine formation.

Who of the Hellenist Gnostic, Mystery influenced Chuch fathers who developed Church doctrine would teach or expound on the Jewish line of thought?

1. The Nazarene Christians (James, Peter, and the boys at the Jerusalem Chruch believed Jesus to be fully man.
2. The Torah does provide several ways for sin to be atoned for. And there are circumstances where God forgives sin without atonement.
3. Once sins are forgiven, whether by atonement or not, they are forgotten and that person is considered to be righteous...

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

Jesus did not create Himself, God, His Father did.

Where is that in the Bible?

 

[ChristineES]

Why does a non-trinitarian have to believe that Jesus was created?

If Jesus was not created and is not God, then who is He? Now you have me confused. You seem to be the only non-trinitarian on this board who doesn't think He is an angel. Maybe you can explain to me who He is to you (if the answer is too long you can pm me if you want, although I am sure others are interested too.)
I think about these things at night: Since Jesus is The Son of God, what does that mean? When men and women have children, those children are 1/2 the mother and 1/2 the father. Since God has no gender as we do, then any "Son" He has would 100% God. Since there is only one God and not 2 Gods, then what would that make Jesus if He was not God? That is why we believe Jesus is God!!

 

[Georges]

Why does a non-trinitarian have to believe that Jesus was created?

If Jesus was not created and is not God, then who is He?

He is the Son of God....not God....I am my father's son, I am not my father. My father and I are one in that we have the same goals (not perfectly but essentially). Jesus and God are one in goals and purpose. If my father sends me to conduct his business on his behalf, to the people I deal with, I am as my father.

Now you have me confused.

I think the above is crystal clear...and makes sense.

You seem to be the only non-trinitarian on this board who doesn't think He is an angel.

You can count me in the non Angel bandwagon...as a matter of fact, I haven't seen anyone post that he is an Angel....I am definetely a non trinitarian and I certainly don't think he is an Angel (except of course in the sense that he is at times a messenger).

Maybe you can explain to me who He is to you (if the answer is too long you can pm me if you want, although I am sure others are interested too.)
I think about these things at night: Since Jesus is The Son of God, what does that mean? When men and women have children, those children are 1/2 the mother and 1/2 the father. Since God has no gender as we do, then any "Son" He has would 100% God. Since there is only one God and not 2 Gods, then what would that make Jesus if He was not God? That is why we believe Jesus is God!!

and that is why it doesn't make any sense....that's why I dumped the trinity concept after 40 years. Jesus was/is 100% man, and as the Messiah was empowered by the Holy Spirit of God.....Son by adoption.

Sorry for butting in Christine, but you (inadvertently) put me in a catagory into which I do not belong.

 

[ChristineES]

and that is why it doesn't make any sense....that's why I dumped the trinity concept after 40 years. Jesus was/is 100% man, and as the Messiah was empowered by the Holy Spirit of God.....Son by adoption.

Sorry for butting in Christine, but you (inadvertently) put me in a catagory into which I do not belong.[/quote]

You're not butting in. I have been under the delusion that non-trinitarians believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. I guess I was wrong about that.

Do you believe that Jesus was just a man, then? That is what is sounds like. If I am wrong about that let me know. I am unclear what you and others believe. A son is equal to his father, so Jesus would be equal to God. It is in the Bible that the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus because he said He was The Son of God, which made Him equal to God. If Jesus is equal to God and not God, wouldn't you believe in more than one God? Can you tell what I am missing from what you believe?