Question for Non-Trinitarians

[gingercat]

Christine,

We non-trinitarians believe Jesus is Son of God and Savior of the world. we dont believe He is God the Father.

God the Father did not come down and became Son of Himself. Son cannot be Father at the same time, period.

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

God the Father did not come down and became Son of Himself. Son cannot be Father at the same time, period.

You are right. Good thing the Catholic Church doesn't teach that!

We non-trinitarians believe Jesus is Son of God and Savior of the world. we dont believe He is God the Father.

We don't beleive Jesus is God the Father either.

 

[Georges]

and that is why it doesn't make any sense....that's why I dumped the trinity concept after 40 years. Jesus was/is 100% man, and as the Messiah was empowered by the Holy Spirit of God.....Son by adoption.

Sorry for butting in Christine, but you (inadvertently) put me in a catagory into which I do not belong.

You're not butting in. I have been under the delusion that non-trinitarians believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. I guess I was wrong about that.

Do you believe that Jesus was just a man, then?

Yes...100%.

That is what is sounds like. If I am wrong about that let me know. I am unclear what you and others believe.

A son is equal to his father, so Jesus would be equal to God.

A son is never equal to his father....I'm not equal to mine. I'm not sure if any son considers himself equal to his father. Posters correct me if I'm wrong...

It is in the Bible that the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus because he said He was The Son of God, which made Him equal to God.

Not completely accurate....but it is close....Jesus as the Memra in the flesh is God's son. Upon his baptism, God confirms to the people that Jesus is his agent and that full authority has been given to him. Because of this, according to the Jewish Law of Agency, Jesus when dealing with the Pharisee's could claim to be equal with God.

If Jesus is equal to God and not God, wouldn't you believe in more than one God?

Again Christine...this is Judaism and Jewish terms....the Law of Agency states that the "sent one" has the authority of the one who "sent". Meaning Jesus has the authority of God to act on God's behalf....Does that make Jesus God? no. Does Jesus have the power of God? yes because God gave him that authority.

Can you tell what I am missing from what you believe?

Hopefully...the above makes my perspective a little clearer.
[/quote]

 

[mutzrein]

Why does a non-trinitarian have to believe that Jesus was created?

Do they have any other explanation?

Yes, certainly I do. Jesus is the Word of God - not God. I have posted on this previously and am happy to do so again beyond what I write here if need be.

Everyone seems to want to claim they understand the nature of God. The fact is our puny little minds cannot comprehend God in His fulness. Of course human reasoning is all we have but who can convey something of the nature of God in all His majesty & power & authority? For He is Spirit and through His Word He has created all things.

So, all I can do is try to explain to others what God has shown me and to do that I have to use a human analogy. How else can man convey something that is revealed by the Spirit? For if the Spirit does not quicken it to you then human reasoning never will.

When I speak, it is my word that you hear. While it is actually me who speaks, the conduit through which you hear ‘me’ is my word.
Now, have I created my word? In a sense yes. I spoke and I brought it into being. But in another sense it has always existed because whenever I speak I do so of necessity through my word. In fact you cannot separate my word from me. We are one. So, while my word is with me, even though we cannot be separated, there is a physical distinction between me and my word. But then again, my word is also me because when you hear my word you are hearing me. My word reflects who I am.

So you see, this is what it means when scripture talks about the Word being with God and the Word being God.
God and His Word are never separated. As Jesus said, “I and my Father are one. I am in Him and He is in me. The words that I speak are not my own. They are the words that my Father tells me to speak.’

 

[ChristineES]

But my voice is me, wouldn't God's voice (or Word) be God? I mean I believe that Jesus is The Word of God, it is in John 1:1; how would God separate from His Word?

btw, despite our difference in beliefs, I think we are still "siblings in Christ".

 

[mutzrein]

But my voice is me, wouldn't God's voice (or Word) be God? I mean I believe that Jesus is The Word of God, it is in John 1:1; how would God separate from His Word?

btw, despite our difference in beliefs, I think we are still "siblings in Christ".

Thankyou for that. Adopted as sons as daughters of the living God, co-heirs with Christ. Amen!

Well, I would say my voice is not me. It reflects me because as the scripture says out of the heart the mouth speaks. So is my heart me or is my voice me? As you have seen, you cannot seperate them yet they are distinctly different. In the same way, Jesus REFLECTS God because he is the word of God. He is not God himself. And again this is why scripture tells us that God has put all things under Christ - except God himself. The Son will always be subject to the Father.

I AM in Christ

 

[Bick]

Greetings everyone. This is not an easy to understand concept: the beginning of the Word, the Son of God. While it may run a little long, I'm quoting from a book, "God's Eonian Purpose" by Adlai Loudy, for, to me, it is one of the best explanations I have read.

GOD, THE FATHER , SOURCE OF ALL.

"We first wish to offer our readers according to the Scriptures, the one God, the Father, as the absolute source of all things. And before proceeding further, let us verify this by His word:

'We are aware that an idol is nothing in the world, and there is no other God except One. For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless to us there is one God, the Father, out of whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him. But not in all is this knowledge.' (1 Cor. 8:4-7) CV

'O, the depth of the riches and of the wisdom of the knowledge of God! How inscrutable are His judgements, and untraceable His ways! For who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His advisor? or, who gives Him first, and it will be repaid to him? seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!' (Rom.11:33-36). CV.

"Before the eons, God, the Father, was all in Himself, because His word tells us that 'all is out of Him'. Hence for all who really receive the Scriptures as God's word, the question is forever settled as to "Godhood" and the source of all things."

"No matter how far backward we may project our thoughts, the 'one God, the Father' is there, even though there may be nothing else. And, whatsoever else may have had a beginning, He had none."

Now, knowing from the Scriptures that the one God, the Father, was the origin or source of all things, what was God's original, or beginning creation?
God's word will shed the true light upon this subject. In Rev.3:14, using the CV, it is written:

"Now this He is saying, Who is the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's creative Original."

From the Greek, the literal sublinear would read: "The Original of the creation of the God." Five times in Revelation we are told that Jesus Christ is "the Alpha", "the First", "the Origin", "the Beginning of the creation the God" (Rev.1:8, 18; 3:14; 21:6; and 22:13).

It is important to note that nowhere else is all the sacred original writings do we find the definite article "the" used in connection with the "beginning" of creation except in these references which point exclusively to the Lord Jesus Christ, Himself, being 'God's creative Original'.

"Though God Himself is present and powerful, yet it must be remembered
that He is SPIRIT, invisible, intangible, imperceptible (John 4:24; 1 Tim 1:17), and as such, cannot be known or apprehended by His creatures."

Certain attributes of God can be seen through creation, such as His imperceptible power and deity. His power is in the wind. His light is in the sun. His glory is in the stars of heaven. "But each of these is limited as He is not, and each lacks qualities which other fragments hold. But the chiefest lack of all is love. Nature, as well as man, seems heartless and relentlessly cruel."

"But there is one Image who is perfect. The Son of God, the visible manifestation of the invisible God, is the only one who answers to every attribute and entity which Deity demands."

"When Phillip requested to be shown the Father and it would sufice, the Lord Jesus replied, 'He who has seen Me has seen the Father' (John 14:9).
Christ, the Son of God, being the Image of the invisible God (2 Cor.4:4)."

He is, therefore, "the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word." (Heb.1:3) NIV.

And while we read in Gen. 1:1ff, and many other places, that 'God in beginning created the heavens and the earth', it isn't until the NT that we discover that 'the Word', the expression of God, was from beginning and 'through Him all things were made, without Him nothing was made that has been made' (John 1:1ff) NIV.

And the greatest revelation of all is, 'The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, thr glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth'. (John 1:14) NIV.

All for now, Bick

 

[Sothenes]

"But there is one Image who is perfect. The Son of God, the visible manifestation of the invisible God, is the only one who answers to every attribute and entity which Deity demands."

"When Phillip requested to be shown the Father and it would sufice, the Lord Jesus replied, 'He who has seen Me has seen the Father' (John 14:9).
Christ, the Son of God, being the Image of the invisible God (2 Cor.4:4)."

"By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;"-Hebrews 10:20

The reason people can't see the Father is because He is veiled in Christ's Flesh or else how could Jesus tell Phillip,'He who has seen Me has seen the Father' (John 14:9)?

"Believeth thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?.."-John 14:10

"Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake."-John 14:11

They don't believe you Jesus that You are in the Father and that the Father is in You, Jesus because they believe that you are separate from the Father.

 

[mutzrein]

Sothenes - Two questions:

1 What does this mean? I am in Christ and Christ is in me.

2 Why do you pray to Jesus rather than the Father?

 

[Imagican]

1 Corinthians 1:15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Corinthians 1:16: For by him all things were created:

If Jesus was a created being then how did Jesus create Himself? It says,"For by him all things were created;"

Soth,

See how easy it is to be blinded to the truth when one insists that the Word MUST prove the beliefs taught by 'man'.

Jesus did NOT create Himself. He was the ONLY begotten of the the Father. When you read that Jesus was the 'firstborn over all creation', you fail to take into consideration all the rest of the Word that refers to 'creation'. Since the Bible was written 'for' men, it basically refers to that which PERTAINS to men. This earth and that which lives upon it is ALL that pertains to men and therefore ALL we need know or ALL that God saw fit to reveal. Anything that may have taken place 'before' OUR creation or that which pertains to us is irrelevant to what has been revealed. In other words, there is NO NEED for us to have an understanding of that which may have occured 'before' the creation of what pertains to US.

With this in mind it becomes easy to see that there may have been millions of years that past BEFORE the creation of the earth and man. So, what if the words that you offer are only a matter of mistranslation in order to 'try and prove' a 'man-made' doctrine, but really offer nothing but a tiny part of the history of Christ? So when the Word speaks of 'all creation' it only pertains to that which concerns those being addressed? Christ DID exist 'before' man. But we have NO IDEA how long He existed 'before' man. We know that 'before Abraham', Christ existed and this is a prime example of what I refer to. For Abraham was a 'part of he creation' which pertains to US.

Soth, was Satan created by God? And if so, WHEN? Before Christ? After Christ? Was Satan created BY Christ? If so, it would seem that Satan must be VERY ignorant to try and 'tempt' his creator to 'worship him'.

 

[Sothenes]

Sothenes - Two questions:

1 What does this mean? I am in Christ and Christ is in me.

2 Why do you pray to Jesus rather than the Father?

(Answer 1) Correlation and speculation does not prove causation. Jesus said,"Before Abraham was, I AM". That notes pre-existence and I have had Muslim debaters tell me that anyone can say,'I AM' but that is not the context because the Jews said to Jesus,"Thou art not yet fifty years old, and has thou seen Abraham?" (John 8:57)

(Answer 2) Jesus also taught His followers to pray,"Our Father which is in heaven, hallowed be thy name..."

 

[Sothenes]

1 Corinthians 1:15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Corinthians 1:16: For by him all things were created:

If Jesus was a created being then how did Jesus create Himself? It says,"For by him all things were created;"

Soth,

See how easy it is to be blinded to the truth when one insists that the Word MUST prove the beliefs taught by 'man'.

Jesus did NOT create Himself. He was the ONLY begotten of the the Father. When you read that Jesus was the 'firstborn over all creation', you fail to take into consideration all the rest of the Word that refers to 'creation'. Since the Bible was written 'for' men, it basically refers to that which PERTAINS to men.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=22557

Firstborn in Rank

“…for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.â€Â-Jeremiah 31:9

“And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: For God, said he, hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father’s house.â€Â-Genesis 41:51

In the passage of Genesis 48, Israel who is named Jacob gives the blessing to Ephraim who is “the younger†(Gen. 48:14) even though it says Manasseh “was the firstbornâ€Â.

“..and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.â€Â-Genesis 48:20

This shows how “firstborn†takes on the definition of context from the passage because it talks about First in Rank as Ephraim was set before Manasseh even though Manasseh was the firstborn (Genesis 41:51).

Some of you think that "firstborn" means created when it comes to Jesus instead of "first in rank". Taking a literal definition is not always 100% correct because you ignore the context of "firstborn".

 

[Imagican]

Some of you think that "firstborn" means created when it comes to Jesus instead of "first in rank". Taking a literal definition is not always 100% correct because you ignore the context of "firstborn".

Soth,

I'm glad that you are aware that this happens. In the same respect, I would ask you to interpret the word WORD for us.

I believe that the WORD is the word of God while 'trins' teach that the Word is NOTHING MORE than Christ PERIOD. Please tell us what 'your' definition is of the word WORD.

 

[Imagican]

Soth,

What you offer is that 'firstborn' means,...............ah,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ! Exactly what are you offering? That Christ was God's FIRST creation? Or that 'firstborn' means Jesus IS God?????????????Or Christ was when God decided to create Himself? See, I'm confused here.

You state that 'firstborn' is in reference to rank. I accept this offering, for Christ IS the Head of man, created 'before' man. Now, what are you saying? That the Son has ALWAYS existed? That God is lying when He states that Christ is the ONLY BEGOTTEN. To be BEGOTTEN certainly means SOMETHING, even if not what it outright states. So tell us what it means in reference to the Father. Wouldn't ONLY BEGOTTEN be kind of like saying 'FIRSTBORN' as far as your interpretation of 'RANK'? Enlighten me, please.

Let's see here, God the Father, God the Son. Hmmmm. Everything that I have read and understand state Jesus IS the Son of God, NOT God the Son. God the Father most definitely for God IS the Father of Christ. NOT Christ the Son of God that IS God.

 

[Sothenes]

You previously wanted a definition for the "Word" which BlueLetterBible defines as "In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds." from:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... -2510.html

Soth,

What you offer is that 'firstborn' means,...............ah,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ! Exactly what are you offering? That Christ was God's FIRST creation? Or that 'firstborn' means Jesus IS God?????????????Or Christ was when God decided to create Himself? See, I'm confused here.

You state that 'firstborn' is in reference to rank. I accept this offering, for Christ IS the Head of man, created 'before' man. Now, what are you saying? That the Son has ALWAYS existed? That God is lying when He states that Christ is the ONLY BEGOTTEN. To be BEGOTTEN certainly means SOMETHING, even if not what it outright states. So tell us what it means in reference to the Father. Wouldn't ONLY BEGOTTEN be kind of like saying 'FIRSTBORN' as far as your interpretation of 'RANK'? Enlighten me, please.

Let's see here, God the Father, God the Son. Hmmmm. Everything that I have read and understand state Jesus IS the Son of God, NOT God the Son. God the Father most definitely for God IS the Father of Christ. NOT Christ the Son of God that IS God.

Son of God could be a term for the temporal state of His incarnation of Jesus during His earthly ministry and not the eternal state of Jesus.

First of all, the Word "Was with God, and the Word was God" and wasn't created because it says,"IN the beginning" (John 1:1) "Only begotten" only means "of its kind" and since we don't and never will have the god nature, we can't be of the same kind but when we are like his nature, it is when He was "madest him a little lower than the angels;" so for us to be like Him doesn't mean that we are made above the angels though we will judge angels (1 Corinthians 6:3).

Second, Since He was in the beginning, there is no story of Jesus being created because it says,"without him was not any thing made that was made." and if Jesus was made then that would be a contradiction for Jesus would have been made. What you see being made is this union with man in John 1:14 or something already existing taking on an additional nature (firstborn).

As far as answering your question, Jesus pre-existed because he said in John 8:58,"Before Abraham was, I Am."

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."-John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word (God the son), and the Word was with God (God the Father), and the Word was God." (Interpreted)

John tells us in his Epistle "THAT which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;"-1 John 1:1

"The same was in the beginning with God."-John 1:2

"All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.-John 1:3

"In him was life; and the life was the light of men."-John 1:4

John tells us in 1 John 1:2 that Jesus is "that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;" "The words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life." (John 6:63)

Later John tells us that "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." (John 1:5) Paul tells us,"(Jesus) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see:" (1 Timothy 6:16). "And he (The Lord) said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." (Exodus 33:20) and yet Jesus tells Thomas,"..he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9) and Moses' face shown (Exodus 34:30) because Moses was hid in the rock and saw the back side of God (Exodus 33:21-23).

"And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord (kurios) God (theos) giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."-Revelation 22:5

"And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."-Revelation 21:23

If you asked Jesus where God dwells in unapproachable light when you only see that the Lamb is the light in the new city, I imagine Jesus giving you the same answer that He gave Thomas,"..he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9) especially when it says,"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."-Hebrews 1:8 How can the God of lights be their God when the God (the Son) is giving the light and where is the Father if "God himself shall be with them"?

I have a question that if Jesus was not God then how could "He (Jesus) came unto his own, and his own received him not." (John 1:10)?

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."- 2 Corinthians 5:19

I think this (2 Corinthians 5:19) was central to the formation of the doctrine of the Trinity according to what I read.

If you look at the baptism formula in Matthew 28,'baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (verse 19) and when you turn to Acts 2:38 the name is Jesus because it says,"..Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall recive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

 

[Klee shay]

1 Corinthians 1:15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Corinthians 1:16: For by him all things were created:

If Jesus was a created being then how did Jesus create Himself? It says,"For by him all things were created;"

Just a minor correction which may have already been made; but the scripture you're actually quoting from is Colossians, not Corinthians.

Secondly however, the scripture you are using as defence for trinitarian beliefs was written by a man to a church, not spoken by God directly as truth to follow. We should make that clear.

As we can see by your incorrect referencing of scripture above, it is relatively simple for a man subject to the Spirit of God to make a mistake. It certainly wasn't a deliberate attempt on your part to undermine the truth with an incorrect reference; just as I'm sure any man subject to the Spirit of God does not mean to deliberately misrepresent God's truth either.

Nonetheless it happens because we are human and that is why we have the truth Jesus declared to mankind to fall back on, whenever confusion arises around human interpretation. Jesus called those who would follow him, to deny themselves, pick up their cross and actually follow HIM.

 

[Sothenes]

1 Corinthians 1:15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Corinthians 1:16: For by him all things were created:

If Jesus was a created being then how did Jesus create Himself? It says,"For by him all things were created;"

Just a minor correction which may have already been made; but the scripture you're actually quoting from is Colossians, not Corinthians.

It shows that my opponents aren't reading the text or considering that they could be wrong in anything because they aren't looking at the evidence well enough to catch my mistakes. I've always felt like they were ignoring the evidence and I feel that this is proof.

 

[Klee shay]

I have some questions:

When Thomas says to Jesus after he rose again, what did he mean by "My Lord and My God"? was it a mistranslation? Do you believe he was not talking to Jesus but to God about Jesus being alive?

One could ponder forever and a day what Thomas actually meant by his reference "My Lord and My God"; but none understood what he meant better than Jesus and he did not correct Thomas for his choice of words.

Does that mean by default Jesus was God without any doubt however?

Jesus certainly didn't preach that understanding to mankind while he went about doing his Father's will perfectly. He told his disciples that he was the Son of God numerous times and God declared it as a dove descending from heaven at his baptism by John - and also to Peter by spirit which Jesus confirmed. But Jesus declared that he and the father were one also, and this cannot be omitted from the truth either.

So how do we reconcile "My Lord and My God" without resorting to the doctrine of trinity?

"My Lord and My God" would align with the scripture where Jesus declared that he and the Father were one. "My Lord"; was the declaration that Jesus was indeed the man standing before him and "My God" was the recognition of the power which resurrected him.

Or we could go back to the trinitarian concept that Jesus is God - but then Jesus never said that nor did his Father. But like I said, we can all ponder what Thomas actually meant and only Jesus would still know the answer. I guess then we must lean on the Lord's understanding and not man's. And by far, this is the hardest thing to do as a believer. :wink:

 

[Klee shay]

1 Corinthians 1:15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Corinthians 1:16: For by him all things were created:

If Jesus was a created being then how did Jesus create Himself? It says,"For by him all things were created;"

Just a minor correction which may have already been made; but the scripture you're actually quoting from is Colossians, not Corinthians.

It shows that my opponents aren't reading the text or considering that they could be wrong in anything because they aren't looking at the evidence well enough to catch my mistakes. I've always felt like they were ignoring the evidence and I feel that this is proof.

What evidence declared by God through Jesus Sothenes?

 

[mutzrein]

Sothenes - Two questions:

1 What does this mean? I am in Christ and Christ is in me.

2 Why do you pray to Jesus rather than the Father?

(Answer 1) Correlation and speculation does not prove causation. Jesus said,"Before Abraham was, I AM". That notes pre-existence and I have had Muslim debaters tell me that anyone can say,'I AM' but that is not the context because the Jews said to Jesus,"Thou art not yet fifty years old, and has thou seen Abraham?" (John 8:57)

(Answer 2) Jesus also taught His followers to pray,"Our Father which is in heaven, hallowed be thy name..."

Sothenes

1. That wasn't what I was referring to. 'I AM' has nothing to do with the question. You seem to use the statement made by Jesus, 'I am in the Father and He is in me,' as evidence that Jesus is God. So how do you interpret my statement, "I am in Christ and Christ is in me." This is talking about me, not 'I am'.

2. I don't understand your answer. If Jesus taught his followers to pray to the Father, why do you pray to Jesus?