You previously wanted a definition for the "Word" which BlueLetterBible defines as "In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds." from:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... -2510.html
Imagican said:
Soth,
What you offer is that 'firstborn' means,...............ah,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ! Exactly what are you offering? That Christ was God's FIRST creation? Or that 'firstborn' means Jesus IS God?????????????Or Christ was when God decided to create Himself? See, I'm confused here.
You state that 'firstborn' is in reference to rank. I accept this offering, for Christ IS the Head of man, created 'before' man. Now, what are you saying? That the Son has ALWAYS existed? That God is lying when He states that Christ is the ONLY BEGOTTEN. To be BEGOTTEN certainly means SOMETHING, even if not what it outright states. So tell us what it means in reference to the Father. Wouldn't ONLY BEGOTTEN be kind of like saying 'FIRSTBORN' as far as your interpretation of 'RANK'? Enlighten me, please.
Let's see here, God the Father, God the Son. Hmmmm. Everything that I have read and understand state Jesus IS the Son of God, NOT God the Son. God the Father most definitely for God IS the Father of Christ. NOT Christ the Son of God that IS God.
Son of God could be a term for the temporal state of His incarnation of Jesus during His earthly ministry and not the eternal state of Jesus.
First of all, the Word "Was with God, and the Word was God" and wasn't created because it says,"IN the beginning" (John 1:1) "Only begotten" only means "of its kind" and since we don't and never will have the god nature, we can't be of the same kind but when we are like his nature, it is when He was "madest him a little lower than the angels;" so for us to be like Him doesn't mean that we are made above the angels though we will judge angels (1 Corinthians 6:3).
Second, Since He was in the beginning, there is no story of Jesus being created because it says,"without him was not any thing made that was made." and if Jesus was made then that would be a contradiction for Jesus would have been made. What you see being made is this union with man in John 1:14 or something already existing taking on an additional nature (firstborn).
As far as
answering your question, Jesus pre-existed because he said in John 8:58,"Before Abraham was, I Am."
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."-John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word (God the son), and the Word was with God (God the Father), and the Word was God." (Interpreted)
John tells us in his Epistle "THAT which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;"-1 John 1:1
"The same was in the beginning with God."-John 1:2
"All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.-John 1:3
"In him was life; and the life was the light of men."-John 1:4
John tells us in 1 John 1:2 that Jesus is "that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;" "The words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life." (John 6:63)
Later John tells us that "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." (John 1:5) Paul tells us,"(Jesus) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see:" (1 Timothy 6:16). "And he (The Lord) said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." (Exodus 33:20) and yet Jesus tells Thomas,"..he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9) and Moses' face shown (Exodus 34:30) because Moses was hid in the rock and saw the back side of God (Exodus 33:21-23).
"And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord (kurios) God (theos) giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."-Revelation 22:5
"And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and
the Lamb is the light thereof."-Revelation 21:23
If you asked Jesus where God dwells in unapproachable light when you only see that the Lamb is the light in the new city, I imagine Jesus giving you the same answer that He gave Thomas,"..he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9) especially when it says,"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."-Hebrews 1:8 How can the God of lights be their God when the God (the Son) is giving the light and where is the Father if "God himself shall be with them"?
I have a question that if Jesus was not God then how could "He (Jesus) came unto his own, and his own received him not." (John 1:10)?
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."- 2 Corinthians 5:19
I think this (2 Corinthians 5:19) was central to the formation of the doctrine of the Trinity according to what I read.
If you look at the baptism formula in Matthew 28,'baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (verse 19) and when you turn to Acts 2:38 the name is Jesus because it says,"..Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall recive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
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