Question for Non-Trinitarians

[Sothenes]

Sothenes - Two questions:

1 What does this mean? I am in Christ and Christ is in me.

2 Why do you pray to Jesus rather than the Father?

(Answer 1) Correlation and speculation does not prove causation. Jesus said,"Before Abraham was, I AM". That notes pre-existence and I have had Muslim debaters tell me that anyone can say,'I AM' but that is not the context because the Jews said to Jesus,"Thou art not yet fifty years old, and has thou seen Abraham?" (John 8:57)

(Answer 2) Jesus also taught His followers to pray,"Our Father which is in heaven, hallowed be thy name..."

Sothenes

1. That wasn't what I was referring to. 'I AM' has nothing to do with the question. You seem to use the statement made by Jesus, 'I am in the Father and He is in me,' as evidence that Jesus is God. So how do you interpret my statement, "I am in Christ and Christ is in me." This is talking about me, not 'I am'.

2. I don't understand your answer. If Jesus taught his followers to pray to the Father, why do you pray to Jesus?

I'll answer #2 again first:

When His disciples asked Jesus how to pray, He replied, "This, then, is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven ...'" (Matthew 6:9).

http://www.billygraham.org/MyAnswer_Art ... cleID=1216

Jesus said in John 14:14, "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it." Therefore, it would seem safe to say that we can pray to Jesus and ask Him to answer our prayers. Also, we can see further confirmation of this by looking at the phrase, "call upon the name of the Lord." In the Old Testament that phrase is used only of God and it includes the meaning of worship, adoration, and prayer. Psalm 116:4 says, "Then I called upon the name of the Lord: 'O Lord, I beseech Thee, save my life!'†What is interesting is that this phrase is applied to Jesus in 1 Cor. 1:2, "to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours." Paul obviously knew the significance of the phrase, which included prayerful appeal, and applied it to Jesus.

http://www.carm.org/questions/pray_to.htm

What does it mean,"I am in Christ and Christ is in me"? Please give scriptural support, next time. Answer. You are mixing apples and oranges.

 

[mutzrein]

Sothenes

This is what happens when you form a premise and then look for anything that fits it.

You say Jesus said in John 14:14, "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it."

Wheras when I read the KJV it says , “If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it . . .â€Â

This is patently not referring to praying TO Jesus. Why would you pray in someone’s name when praying to that person. No, we pray to our heavenly father in the name of the one who is the mediator between God and man – the one Christ Jesus our Lord. And BTW, adding 'in the name of Jesus' as a suffix to our prayers is not praying in the name of Jesus as some would seem to suggest.

And so on to what your answer, ‘You are mixing apples and oranges’. My scriptural support is in the very chapter that you are so fond of quoting from. John 14 is a wonderful passage and there is seemingly much in it that is overlooked.

So let me ask you something. In John 14, Jesus speaking says, “I am in the Father and the Father is in me†(paraphrased). By virtue of this you interpret it to mean that Jesus is God since He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. Is this correct?

 

[Imagican]

1 Corinthians 1:15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Corinthians 1:16: For by him all things were created:

If Jesus was a created being then how did Jesus create Himself? It says,"For by him all things were created;"

Just a minor correction which may have already been made; but the scripture you're actually quoting from is Colossians, not Corinthians.

It shows that my opponents aren't reading the text or considering that they could be wrong in anything because they aren't looking at the evidence well enough to catch my mistakes. I've always felt like they were ignoring the evidence and I feel that this is proof.

Soth,

What you fail to take into consideration is that the Bible was written to men. So, everything in it pertains to men. With this in mind, doesn't it become obvious that 'In the beginning' means; 'the beginning of man'? For we know NOT what existed 'before' man. So, in the same respect when the Bible states that EVERYTHING was created, what it is stating is that EVERYTHING pertaining to man's existence, NOT everything that exists PERIOD. For we know that God existed BEFORE man, We know that Satan existed BEFORE man, and we KNOW that angels existied BEFORE man. Did God or Christ create these too?

Taking this into consideration, is it not then conceivable to 'even you' that there was a time when ONLY God existed. If this be the case, is it not also conceivable that God created Christ as the 'firstborn' of all creation?

 

[Sothenes]

1 Corinthians 1:15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Corinthians 1:16: For by him all things were created:

If Jesus was a created being then how did Jesus create Himself? It says,"For by him all things were created;"

Just a minor correction which may have already been made; but the scripture you're actually quoting from is Colossians, not Corinthians.

It shows that my opponents aren't reading the text or considering that they could be wrong in anything because they aren't looking at the evidence well enough to catch my mistakes. I've always felt like they were ignoring the evidence and I feel that this is proof.

Soth,

What you fail to take into consideration is that the Bible was written to men. So, everything in it pertains to men. With this in mind, doesn't it become obvious that 'In the beginning' means; 'the beginning of man'? For we know NOT what existed 'before' man. So, in the same respect when the Bible states that EVERYTHING was created, what it is stating is that EVERYTHING pertaining to man's existence, NOT everything that exists PERIOD. For we know that God existed BEFORE man, We know that Satan existed BEFORE man, and we KNOW that angels existied BEFORE man. Did God or Christ create these too?

Taking this into consideration, is it not then conceivable to 'even you' that there was a time when ONLY God existed. If this be the case, is it not also conceivable that God created Christ as the 'firstborn' of all creation?

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In that case, Imagician, it should have said,'From the beginning" if it was speaking about man but it doesn't say,"From the beginning" because you clearly indicated that Angels existed before man.

 

[Klee shay]

deleted and moved to right thread... :wink: Sorry.