Question on the perspective of God as a result of Calvinist doctrine

[Fastfredy0]

As I understand TULIP, it teaches that all mankind is the same – dead in sin and totally depraved, deserving of condemnation and destruction, unable to respond to God. Because of that inability, God intervenes and saves those he alone chose and designated as the elect.

True

That is not a structure for dispensing mercy. It requires nothing (no repentance or surrender) of those receiving mercy to distinguish them from the non-elect.

Mercy requires the elect to have faith (John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him), said faith caused by God (John 1:13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified]).

Therefore, with no difference between those two groups, if God is just, he would have to save the non-elect too.

There is a difference. God is the potter and we are the clay. God molds some to be loved and others to be hated. God is the only creator. Man cannot create himself and therefore cannot differentiate himself from another.

, if God is just, he would have to save the non-elect too.

God defines what is JUST and scripture shows God distributes Mercy to those He chooses. You arbitrarily define JUSTICE and intellectually support inferior man's freedom to choose above the freedom of the superior God's freedom to choose. You impose man's will over God's will. You would have the created control the creator in regards to mercy. You would have man be the cause of an immutable God's actions which contradicts God being immutable as He, according to your doctrine, would change according to His creations directions in regard to mercy/salvation. (I could go on)

I would argue you that you are complicating something that is very simple – profound but simple. Absolutely we agree that God is love. Love is giving. Love is sacrifice. God loves the whole world. Everyone.

I will agree to your definition of Love as being "giving" which is to favor. (aside: nice for someone to define it for a change to enhance comprehensiveness of responses)
God does love everyone, just not the same quantitatively.
God does give to everyone, just not the same amount. Some he makes rich, some blind, some orphans, some to be given faith which does not originate with man (John 1:13).

John 3:16 For God so loved……Who did he love?……the world…..What did he do because he loved?……..that he gave his only begotten son. Who did he give to?.....that whosoever believeth in him………Why did he give?.... should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I don't want to yap forever. I'll just deal with WHOSOEVER BELIEVES ... This phase does NOT reveal the 'cause' of believing. So the verse could be read with two understandings:
1) Whosoever believes independent of God's influence or
2) Whosoever believes because God caused him to believe
John 1:13 does reveals #2 to be true; the cause of faith is God

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

God had the highest love for us when we had no relationship, no part with him. We were sinners and he chose to sacrifice for us in order to give us a path to eternal life with him, all the while knowing that most of mankind would reject his offer. That is love.

Agreed. Note: Romans 5:8 does not define "us" .. you say everyone with exception, I say the elect. Implicit verses should be resolved by explicit verses to alleviate bias.
You will not find one person God says He loves that went to hell. Coincidence? Granted, this is an implicit proof.

Your statement that God causes their desire to change such that they willingly choose him – that is a contradiction with Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace, is it not?

Total Depravity is not a contradiction but support the God is cause of change.
Premise 1: Man totally Depraved and therefore cannot turn to God by himself (no one seeks God)
Premise 2: some men turn to God in faith
Solution: God must have caused them to turn to Him as man si incapable

One other member in this thread stated that free will is an illusion. Which does Calvinism teach? It can't be both.

Free Will is an illusion. Technically, it depends on one's definition of freewill of which I know of three definitions.
Most define is as self generated salvific faith in which the cause is solely oneself. This is metaphysically impossible, scripturally untrue and can be proven false by empirical evidence.
Got to go ... I'll look pious and say I'm off the church.

 

[brightfame52]

fastfreddy

Mercy requires the elect to have faith (John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him), said faith caused by God (John 1:13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified]).

I would have to disagree with this. Mercy requires nothing from a spiritually dead sinner, God in mercy gives the elect vessel of mercy Faith, otherwise he would remain in unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Paul means all the elect from among the jews and gentiles.
Again 1 Tim 1:13-14
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

God always finds His elect by nature in in unbelief, He has Mercy on them [by new birth of the Spirit] and gives them Faith and Love in and for Christ.

I would be carefull saying something is required, that sounds like works, conditionalism !

 

[bercawc]

Not surprisingly, if this discussion were to continue for weeks and weeks, we would still not reach resolution and that isnt profitable for either side. I did not expect to nor set out to "win over" anyone on this forum. By posting here, I knew from the start it would be a bit like someone trying to sell Ohio State t-shirts in Ann Arbor, MI - not likely to attract any takers. However, the discussions were interesting and while I strongly disagree with Calvinist theology, I appreciate those taking the time to engage in conversation. It caused me to look more closely at scripture and stretched me in answering challenges from multiple people.

To sum up my parting thoughts, I wholeheartedly believe every word of the KJV because I believe every word is pure (Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.) and preserved (Matt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.). Based on our discussions, I believe you would all say you believe the Bible as well. Our diversion comes in our take on what the Bible says.

Throughout this entire thread, I have tried to convey the principle to consider your doctrine and what it portrays God to be - does that portrayal of God align completely with ALL scriptural descriptions of God, ALL his attributes? Does one or two attributes overpower the others in your doctrine making it out of balance (Proverbs 11:1 A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.)? If within your doctrine, God can't be 100% merciful, 100% just, 100% holy, 100% love, etc. then that is a red flag that something in the doctrine is off and somewhere, somehow scripture had been misinterpeted or misapplied.

Bible study isn't easy. We can't simply read scripture and understand every nuance of doctrine and application. 2 Timothy 2:15 says , Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Things to note here -

We must study to show ourselves approved unto God. This implies that if we dont study, we wont be approved unto God.​

It also calls those who study workmen - Study is hard work.​

Those that work dont need to be ashamed - again implying that those that don't do the work will be ashamed.​

Rightly dividing the word of truth - Perhaps the most important part. The command to rightly divide means wrongly dividing is possible. There are rules to Bible study that help protect from false doctrine. Be aware of context, the audience, the dispensational time period. If the time period in the passage isn't the church age, you'd better be careful not to wrongly apply something to our lives today - especially in the case of salvation. Because every word is pure, use the Bible to define itself. God is consistent in his use of langauge and concepts. Trace specific words and phrases throughout the word to shed light on passages of study, comparing scripture with scripture. (1Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.)​

​

I dont mean to lecture on methods of Bible study as if the topic is unknown to you and I am an expert. My intent here is to show that it isnt that I just disagree with Calvinism or don't believe the Bible as some have charged in this thread. I've been taught by trusted men who have done the work of 2Tim 2:15 and I've done my own work to confirm that teaching for myself. It is from that basis that I stand by my prior statements.​

 

[Fastfredy0]

I would have to disagree with this. Mercy requires nothing from a spiritually dead sinner, God in mercy gives the elect vessel of mercy Faith, otherwise he would remain in unbelief Rom 11:32

Please give a scripture showing God applying salvific mercy to someone that does not have faith to prove your point that I was wrong to say: "Mercy requires the elect to have faith" or a scripture in which God does not apply mercy to a person that has salvific faith. God ONLY applies salvific mercy to those that have faith, NO EXCEPTIONS (unless you're talking about the age of accountability).

Aside: God only applies mercy to objects that have faith, said faith is the result of God's regeneration.

God always finds His elect by nature in in unbelief, He has Mercy on them [by new birth of the Spirit] and gives them Faith and Love in and for Christ.

Agreed.

I would be carefull saying something is required, that sounds like works, conditionalism !

I think you have issues with semantics.
Premise 1: God only gives mercy (going to heaven) to those that have faith
You can't show me an exception. You get confused IMO because the statement doesn't doesn't go into depth as to the cause of a person's faith and wrongly you assume the statement infers the person must do something to be saved. That's not what the statement says; you're reading into it IMO.
Salvation is a CONDITION that God saves people with Faith. John 3:16 says whoever believes has eternal life. It's not rocket science .... to have eternal life one must believe. (Granted, God is the cause of belief and we do nothing to merit salvation. We do something to be saved which is believe but it has no merit because God caused us to believe.)
Salvific belief is conditional upon God choosing a person. Scripture affirms this statement.

I think we need a English major to help with the semantics of our statements.

 

[Fastfredy0]

if this discussion were to continue for weeks and weeks, we would still not reach resolution

Agreed, truth is rarely discover unless one approaches unbiased which we all are.

If within your doctrine, God can't be 100% merciful, 100% just, 100% holy, 100% love, etc. then that is a red flag that something in the doctrine is off and somewhere, somehow scripture had been misinterpeted or misapplied.

For God to be 100% "merciful and loving" then all would be saved and no one would suffer at any time. You would be born in heaven so to speak. The evidence is over whelming that this is not true so your statement is incorrect.

Let's evaluate God's attributes further.
Freedom ... For God to be 100% free to determine things 'free will' cannot exist

ALL KNOWING ... If God's knowledge of his creatures were derived from the creatures by the impression of anything upon him, as there is upon us, he could not know from eternity, because from eternity there was no actual existence of anything but himself; and therefore there could not be any images shot out from anything, because there was not anything in being but God.
Glory ... Can God be pleased/glorified with anything which does not have its origin in Himself? If “free will” be an actuality, then God is not glorified by the salvation of individuals that He foreknew for He had no purpose for that individual’s decision.
Benevolence ... The events of the universe, if not determined by the divine decrees, must be determined the will of creatures. It is contrary to any proper conception of the divine benevolence to suppose that God permits the course of nature and of history, and the ends to which both these are moving, to be determined for myriads of sentient beings by any other force or will than his own.
Independence ... Romans 11:35 Who has first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?" ... You're answer is that God owes you for believing in Him.
Logic ... Acts 20:35b It is more blessed [and brings greater joy] to give than to receive. If man can give something to God then man would be more blessed than God in that act.
Mercy ... To speak of deserving mercy is a contradiction of terms. God bestows His mercies on whom He pleases and withholds them as seems good unto Himself. (Romans 9:15; Exodus 33:19)
I could on much longer ... I think the points been made.

Bible study isn't easy. We can't simply read scripture and understand every nuance of doctrine and application. 2 Timothy 2:15 says , Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Agreed ... yet so much disagreement among those have done so.

I've been taught by trusted men who have done the work of 2Tim 2:15 and I've done my own work to confirm that teaching for myself. It is from that basis that I stand by my prior statements.

Many of us have done the same and come to a different understanding.

Thanks for you input.

 

[brightfame52]

Please give a scripture showing God applying salvific mercy to someone that does not have faith to prove your point that I was wrong to say: "Mercy requires the elect to have faith" or a scripture in which God does not apply mercy to a person that has salvific faith. God ONLY applies salvific mercy to those that have faith, NO EXCEPTIONS (unless you're talking about the age of accountability).

Aside: God only applies mercy to objects that have faith, said faith is the result of God's regeneration.


Agreed.


I think you have issues with semantics.
Premise 1: God only gives mercy (going to heaven) to those that have faith
You can't show me an exception. You get confused IMO because the statement doesn't doesn't go into depth as to the cause of a person's faith and wrongly you assume the statement infers the person must do something to be saved. That's not what the statement says; you're reading into it IMO.
Salvation is a CONDITION that God saves people with Faith. John 3:16 says whoever believes has eternal life. It's not rocket science .... to have eternal life one must believe. (Granted, God is the cause of belief and we do nothing to merit salvation. We do something to be saved which is believe but it has no merit because God caused us to believe.)
Salvific belief is conditional upon God choosing a person. Scripture affirms this statement.

I think we need a English major to help with the semantics of our statements.

I already gave scripture for my comment.

 

[brightfame52]

fastfreddy

: "Mercy requires the elect to have faith" or a scripture in which God does not apply mercy to a person that has salvific faith. God ONLY applies salvific mercy to those that have faith, NO EXCEPTIONS (unless you're talking about the age of accountability).

Please provide the scripture that says exactly that. "Mercy requires the elect to have faith"
Gods mercy and Great Love finds the elect dead in sin Eph 2:3-5
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Mercy saves the elect in regeneration and quickening before faith /believing Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

So fred, by requiring faith/believing before mercy which saves, is salvation by works.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Please provide the scripture that says exactly that. "Mercy requires the elect to have faith"

Ephesians 2:8-9 ... you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. AMP
This is not rocket science ... God's been merciful by faith

So fred, by requiring faith/believing before mercy which saves, is salvation by works.

I didn't say faith comes before mercy. I suppose they come at the same time when we are born again. God is merciful to cause us to believe; we believe because He is merciful.

*exasperating* atpollard help out here.
Bright's and my difference is not a matter of doctrine, it a matter of the proper use of the English language.
Explain to Bright that God cannot be merciful unless one has faith. I'm not saying we are the cause of our faith. God cannot be merciful unless He gives us Faith. We must have faith for God to be merciful. It is a condition God places on Himself that He will be merciful to those He gives faith and to those He gives faith He will be merciful.

 

[brightfame52]

Ephesians 2:8-9 ... you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. AMP
This is not rocket science ... God's been merciful by faith

I didn't say faith comes before mercy. I suppose they come at the same time when we are born again. God is merciful to cause us to believe; we believe because He is merciful.

*exasperating* atpollard help out here.
Bright's and my difference is not a matter of doctrine, it a matter of the proper use of the English language.
Explain to Bright that God cannot be merciful unless one has faith. I'm not saying we are the cause of our faith. God cannot be merciful unless He gives us Faith. We must have faith for God to be merciful. It is a condition God places on Himself that He will be merciful to those He gives faith and to those He gives faith He will be merciful.

Works ! And nothing you posted says faith is required for mercy.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Works ! And nothing you posted says faith is required for mercy.

I think your problem is communication that why I asked atpollard who is a firm REFORM guy to interpret for us. I am almost sure we have the same theology.

How does one recieve God's mercy if not by ones faith?
Am I save by my faith of God's faith? (I think you will answer OUR FAITH if you bother to answer)
Are we saved by faith alone? (I think you will answer YES if you bother to answer)
It is NOT a work because the cause of my faith is God. (I think you will AGREE if you bother to answer)

 

[atpollard]

Hello. Brand new to the forum. I’ve been looking into Calvinism and its five points and was curious to hear from self-described Calvinists on some of my conclusions. In a brief browse of the forum I see that there are several lengthy threads on the first page alone debating/discussing one or more of the points and in attempt to not rehash old ground, I won’t begin with something along those lines – although I suspect such a thing is inevitable in the course of this thread.

I feel like I understand the thrust of the five points enough to then also infer their ramifications. Unconditional Election says that God predetermined in eternity past specific individuals to be among the elect and therefore to be saved. Ok - but then either by his active choice or by default those that he did not elect are destined for hell and both groups have absolutely no ability or opportunity made available to them to change or accept that fate. This does not align with God being love (I John 4:8, 16) and being just (Deut 32:4 and Isaiah 45:21). Further, the teaching of Irresistible Grace says that God “forces” faith upon those he has elected in order to cause them to believe on him and obtain salvation through his grace. These teachings describe God to be the type of being who arbitrarily chooses eternal life and eternal punishment for his creation and then forces those he has elected to follow and love him even though they have not chosen him of their own free will. To me, this perspective of God is not attractive and does not motivate me to serve him or even be a part of Christianity. Frankly, even as an elect person I would see that perspective of God as diminishing my love for him – similar to if I found out that my wife had been giving me some love potion all along and my love for her was never genuine but forced.

I’m curious to hear from Calvinists if such a conclusion is something you’ve come to and struggled with and how you have reconciled it.

Great questions.

Let me offer a suggestion. Imagine for a moment that human beings, being fallen by nature, are completely clueless when it comes to thinking about things like God does and measuring right and wrong like God does. I will even offer one practical bit of evidence to support my case:

Some stranger walks up to you on the street and shoves you hard from behind, sending you crashing over a trash can and landing in a puddle left by the rain. The RIGHT thing to do in that case is:​

1. Knock the jerk on his a**.
2. Stand up and offer him a second opportunity to hit you, while loving him more than you love your family.

God says that 2 is the correct answer. Does that make sense under your HUMAN LOGIC? If we can’t get that right, then what are the odds we will naturally understand anything IMPORTANT about God and eternity correctly, either?

So let’s start with the REPROBATE (fancy word meaning those that will spend eternity in hell … irrespective of why). Romans 1-3 talks a lot about SIN and who is guilty of sin and how angry God is at sin and which people deserve punishment for their sins. I will cut to the chase and just give you the answer: EVERYBODY sins, EVERYBODY is guilty and EVERYBODY deserves punishment. THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS. Because a “fact” requires two witnesses, go to Ephesians 2:1-3 and read that everyone sins and is an enemy of God and is dead in their sins.

So this means that EVERYONE is born into the REPROBATE, works hard at earning their damnation and God need do NOTHING but judge everyone fairly (Justice) in order for every person to spend eternity in hell. Not how human minds want to look at things, but neither was loving the guy that shoved you into the garbage can.

Ephesians 2:4 says “But God, who is rich in mercy, …”. Romans 9:15-16 talks about how God will “show mercy on whom I will show mercy …”. So IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT NOBODY SHOULD BE SAVED, God chooses to save some anyway. That is LOVE demonstrated in GRACE (undeserved favor - like loving the guy that shoved us) and MERCY (receiving forgiveness we do not deserve).

It is a flawed human reasoning that God owes EVERYONE both Mercy and Grace. God owes everyone JUSTICE (which is damnation for our guilt). God freely chooses to give the gift of Mercy to whomever He pleases (but God owes it to no one).

Does that make any sense?

 

[atpollard]

I think your problem is communication that why I asked atpollard who is a firm REFORM guy to interpret for us. I am almost sure we have the same theology.

How does one recieve God's mercy if not by ones faith?
Am I save by my faith of God's faith? (I think you will answer OUR FAITH if you bother to answer)
Are we saved by faith alone? (I think you will answer YES if you bother to answer)
It is NOT a work because the cause of my faith is God. (I think you will AGREE if you bother to answer)

Ok, so technically, God is free to show MERCY without faith. An example would be if unborn babies go to heaven, it will be an act of God’s MERCY without any RIGHTEOUSNESS in the baby or FAITH from the baby (no good Credobaptist Salvation for the unborn).

However, YOU asked about how God saved US (which is more “normal” than the pure MERCY example of an unborn). Fortunately, we do not need to guess … we have SCRIPTURE:

• Ephesians 2:8-10 [NLT] 8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
• Romans 10:9-11 [NLT] 9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced."
• John 3:14-18 [NLT] 14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. 16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. 18 "There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son.
• Romans 8:28-30 [NLT] 28 And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. 29 For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.
  

So to whom would God show only SOME MERCY … He would give you Eternal Life, but withhold FAITH and BELIEF? Such a thing is nonsensical. Would God choose one to be ELECT (foreknown, predestined, loved more than his own life) and then not given what was needed to obey Romans 10:10-11? Silliness. Of course our salvation is a WORKS based salvation … GOD NEVER STOPS WORKING ON OUR SALVATION! We just hang on for His dear life.

 

[atpollard]

From experience I can tell you they’ll say “its a mystery” which means they refuse to think about it.

That’s the Lutherans that embrace “Mystery”.

 

[atpollard]

The points that most interested me are the ones I mentioned in my OP - Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace. So assuming for argument’s sake TULIP is true - God preselected specific individuals for salvation.

1. You have misunderstood Unconditional Election. It is a fairly simple and narrow concept. “Why does God choose to save one person over another?” (ELECTION)

• CONDITIONAL: Because of something in the person. (They were righteous, they did good works, they chose to believe … whatever it is … THE PERSON DID IT.)
• UNCONDITIONAL: Not because of something in the person. (God rolled a dice, God chose every 100th baby born, God has some lottery … whatever it is … IT IS BECAUSE OF GOD AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY MERIT IN THE PERSON).

We do not need to assume that TULIP is true for God to have preselected specific individuals for salvation. We just need to assume that Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:4-5 are not false …

Romans 8:29-30 [NLT] 29 For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.

Ephesians 1:4-5 [NLT] 4 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. 5 God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.

 

[atpollard]

Unconditional election is deeply unjust as it is based on nothing righteous.

It is so much better to embrace the hubris of CONDITIONAL ELECTION … that God saved you because YOU DESERVE IT … you made the right choice because YOU were smarter and YOU were more MORAL and YOU are going to Heaven because YOU earned the right to go to heaven. Those going to HELL had the same chance, they were just INFERIOR and deserve to go to hell.

 

[brightfame52]

I think your problem is communication that why I asked atpollard who is a firm REFORM guy to interpret for us. I am almost sure we have the same theology.

How does one recieve God's mercy if not by ones faith?
Am I save by my faith of God's faith? (I think you will answer OUR FAITH if you bother to answer)
Are we saved by faith alone? (I think you will answer YES if you bother to answer)
It is NOT a work because the cause of my faith is God. (I think you will AGREE if you bother to answer)

Yes you advocate works salvation, its very sly, but its there. You basically are saying like many do, faith is a requirement for salvation. You are saying its required for mercy, its salvation conditioned on man is all it is. May God be pleased to deliver you from that snare friend.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Great questions.

Let me offer a suggestion. Imagine for a moment that human beings, being fallen by nature, are completely clueless when it comes to thinking about things like God does and measuring right and wrong like God does. I will even offer one practical bit of evidence to support my case:

Some stranger walks up to you on the street and shoves you hard from behind, sending you crashing over a trash can and landing in a puddle left by the rain. The RIGHT thing to do in that case is:​

1. Knock the jerk on his a**.
2. Stand up and offer him a second opportunity to hit you, while loving him more than you love your family.

God says that 2 is the correct answer. Does that make sense under your HUMAN LOGIC? If we can’t get that right, then what are the odds we will naturally understand anything IMPORTANT about God and eternity correctly, either?

So let’s start with the REPROBATE (fancy word meaning those that will spend eternity in hell … irrespective of why). Romans 1-3 talks a lot about SIN and who is guilty of sin and how angry God is at sin and which people deserve punishment for their sins. I will cut to the chase and just give you the answer: EVERYBODY sins, EVERYBODY is guilty and EVERYBODY deserves punishment. THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS. Because a “fact” requires two witnesses, go to Ephesians 2:1-3 and read that everyone sins and is an enemy of God and is dead in their sins.

So this means that EVERYONE is born into the REPROBATE, works hard at earning their damnation and God need do NOTHING but judge everyone fairly (Justice) in order for every person to spend eternity in hell. Not how human minds want to look at things, but neither was loving the guy that shoved you into the garbage can.

Ephesians 2:4 says “But God, who is rich in mercy, …”. Romans 9:15-16 talks about how God will “show mercy on whom I will show mercy …”. So IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT NOBODY SHOULD BE SAVED, God chooses to save some anyway. That is LOVE demonstrated in GRACE (undeserved favor - like loving the guy that shoved us) and MERCY (receiving forgiveness we do not deserve).

It is a flawed human reasoning that God owes EVERYONE both Mercy and Grace. God owes everyone JUSTICE (which is damnation for our guilt). God freely chooses to give the gift of Mercy to whomever He pleases (but God owes it to no one).

Does that make any sense?

The Biblical instruction is strike for strike. Eye for eye.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Some stranger walks up to you on the street and shoves you hard from behind, sending you crashing over a trash can and landing in a puddle left by the rain. The RIGHT thing to do in that case is:

1. Knock the jerk on his a**.
2. Stand up and offer him a second opportunity to hit you, while loving him more than you love your family.

I might go for option #1 assuming he is smaller than me. I think God allows you to defend yourself (or run if you are smaller than the other guy *giggle* ... I am a good runner)

 

[Fastfredy0]

Yes you advocate works salvation, its very sly, but its there. You basically are saying like many do, faith is a requirement for salvation. You are saying its required for mercy, its salvation conditioned on man is all it is. May God be pleased to deliver you from that snare friend.

I'm not in a snare. We both believe God does all the work in regards to salvation. You IMO have a semantics issue understanding what I am saying that seems insolvable ... so I will leave it at that.

 

[atpollard]

The Biblical instruction is strike for strike. Eye for eye.

As a human being ... we interpret that as a "minimum response" when God presented it as a "maximum response: up to this far and NO FURTHER!" If I remember my OT, at TWO points, God had to deal with complaints from the people that Children should be punished for crimes of their Fathers and God was VERY CLEAR that was NOT how God does things.