Question on the perspective of God as a result of Calvinist doctrine

[brightfame52]

Read what it says and not what you WANT IT TO SAY.


False. I acknowledge that Christ was Resurrected.


I acknowledged that in my explanation "ALREADY and NOT YET" ... that was "PAST: We were saved."


Read Romans 4:25 again ... it doesn't say that. "He put away their sins" appears nowhere in that verse. The term for adding your thoughts into a verse is eisegesis. It may be true that Jesus "put away" our sins, but that is not found in Romans 4:25 which means: [NLT] "He was handed over to die because of our sins, and he was raised to life to make us right with God." (Dynamic Equivalence Translations are good at getting to the general meaning of a verse).


Romans 14:4 [NLT] "Who are you to condemn someone else's servants? Their own master will judge whether they stand or fall. And with the Lord's help, they will stand and receive his approval."

I have read what it says, and you deny it. Its simple, Jesus rose again for our Justification, If He was delivered for our offences.

 

[atpollard]

I have read what it says, and you deny it. Its simple, Jesus rose again for our Justification, If He was delivered for our offences.

I affirm the Biblical statements as fact.
It is YOUR CONCLUSIONS added onto the Biblical facts that I deny.

 

[brightfame52]

I affirm the Biblical statements as fact.
It is YOUR CONCLUSIONS added onto the Biblical facts that I deny.

Impossible, you say people Christ died for are not Justified before God before they believe.

 

[Fastfredy0]

atpollard brightfame52

I hate to say this, but I am beginning to side with Bright ... I was going to throw Romans 5:1 in Bright's face and conclude that once again I proved I was right (which is my favored conclusion ) but I looked at others commentary and now think he at least has a strong point and I hestitantly throw my lot with him. Granted, this explanation is difficult for me to take in in its entirety.

Here's what I found.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified [that is, acquitted of sin, declared blameless before God] by faith,

“We must note at once that the Greek form of this verb ‘declared righteous,’ or ‘justified,’ is not the present participle, ‘being declared righteous,’ but rather the aorist participle, ‘having been declared righteous,’ or ‘justified.’ You say, What is the difference? The answer is, ‘being declared righteous’ looks to a state you are in; ‘having been declared righteous’ looks back to a fact that happened. Tom Constable
The AORIST tense always conveys a single, discreet action (i.e. simple aspect). This is the most common tense for referring to action in the past. (Aside: I struggle with this word)

Justification, then, is conditioned by faith. Yet this cannot be the relation. Objective justification is before faith. We are justified objectively regardless of our faith. In eternal election all those given to Christ by the Father are righteous before God forever. This righteousness cannot be contingent upon faith, even though it is true that the gift of righteousness cannot be appropriated except by a true and living faith. Besides, the justification of all the elect is accomplished forever in the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ long before they believe. Further, although it is true that they cannot receive justification except by means of faith, this faith is not of them, but is a gift of God. Faith is, therefore, not a condition that they must fulfill in order to be justified. Justification is strictly unconditional. Herman Hoeksema – Reformed Dogmatics

Faith is not the cause, but an effect of justification; it is not the cause of it in any sense; it is not the moving cause, that is the free grace of God; "Being justified freely by his grace", (Romans 3:24) nor the efficient cause of it; "It is God that justifies", (Romans 8:33) nor the meritorious cause, as some express it; or the matter of it, that is the obedience and blood of Christ, (Romans 5:9, 19) or the righteousness of Christ, consisting of his active and passive obedience; nor even the instrumental cause; for, as Mr. Baxter himself argues, "If faith is the instrument of our justification, it is the instrument either of God or man; not of man, for justification is God's act; he is the sole Justifier, (Romans 3:26) man does not justify himself: nor of God, for it is not God that believes": nor is it a "causa sine qua non", as the case of elect infants shows; it is not in any class of causes whatever; but it is the effect of justification: all men have not faith, and the reason why some do not believe is, because they are none of Christ's sheep; they were not chosen in him, nor justified through him; but justly left in their sins, and so to condemnation; the reason why others believe is, because they are ordained to eternal life, have a justifying righteousness provided for them, and are justified by it, and shall never enter into condemnation: the reason why any are justified, is not because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith, is because they are justified; was there no such blessing of grace as justification of life in Christ, for the sons of men, there would be no such thing as faith in Christ bestowed on them; precious faith is obtained through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ, (2 Peter 1:1) nor, indeed, would there be any room for it, nor any use of it, if a justifying righteousness was not previously provided. Faith is the evidence and manifestation of justification, and therefore justification must be before it; "Faith is the evidence of things not seen", (Hebrews 11:1) but it is not the evidence of that which as yet is not; what it is an evidence of, must be, and it must exist before it. The "righteousness of God", of the God-man and mediator Jesus Christ, "is revealed from faith to faith", in the everlasting gospel, (Romans 1:17) and therefore must be before it is revealed, and before faith, to which it is revealed: faith is that grace whereby a soul, having seen its guilt, and its want of righteousness, beholds, in the light of the divine Spirit, a complete righteousness in Christ, renounces its own, lays hold off that, puts it on as a garment, rejoices in it, and glories of it; the Spirit of God witnessing to his spirit, that he is a justified person; and so he is evidently and declaratively "justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:11). Faith adds nothing to the "esse" only to the "bene esse" of justification; it is no part of, nor any ingredient in it; it is a complete act in the eternal mind of God, without the being or consideration of faith, or any foresight of it; a man is as much justified before as after it, in the account of God; and after he does believe, his justification does not depend on his acts of faith; for though "we believe not, yet he abides faithful"; that is, God is faithful to his covenant engagements with his Son, as their Surety, by whose suretyship righteousness they are justified; but by faith men have a comfortable sense, perception and apprehension of their justification, and enjoy that peace of soul which results from it. Justification is the object, and faith the act that is conversant with it. Now every object is prior to the act that is concerned with it; unless when an act gives being to the object, which is not the case here; for faith, as has been seen, is not the cause, nor matter of justification. John Gill – A Body of Doctrinal Divinity

When is one Justified

In his eternal counsel God has ordained Christ as mediator and head of all the elect. Therefore, it must be true that God knew the elect in Christ as justified from all eternity.
The elect do not become righteous before God in time by faith, but they are righteous in the tribunal of God from before the foundation of the earth. God beholds them in eternity not as sinners, but as perfectly righteous, as redeemed, as justified in Christ: He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel Numbers 23:21; Romans 8:29-30.
Eternal justification is realized in time and is grounded historically in the death of Christ. Christ died for all the elect. He atoned once and forever for all the sins of those whom the Father had given him from before the foundation of the world. Hence in the hour of judgment on the cross, they all are justified objectively forever. Their sins can never be imputed to them anymore, and they have a right to eternal life. On the cross the debt of the sins of all the elect was paid, and they are righteous before God. Herman Hoeksema – Reformed Dogmatics

Full disclosure ... this is still somewhat confusing to me

 

[brightfame52]

atpollard brightfame52

I hate to say this, but I am beginning to side with Bright ... I was going to throw Romans 5:1 in Bright's face and conclude that once again I proved I was right (which is my favored conclusion ) but I looked at others commentary and now think he at least has a strong point and I hestitantly throw my lot with him. Granted, this explanation is difficult for me to take in in its entirety.

Here's what I found.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified [that is, acquitted of sin, declared blameless before God] by faith,

“We must note at once that the Greek form of this verb ‘declared righteous,’ or ‘justified,’ is not the present participle, ‘being declared righteous,’ but rather the aorist participle, ‘having been declared righteous,’ or ‘justified.’ You say, What is the difference? The answer is, ‘being declared righteous’ looks to a state you are in; ‘having been declared righteous’ looks back to a fact that happened. Tom Constable
The AORIST tense always conveys a single, discreet action (i.e. simple aspect). This is the most common tense for referring to action in the past. (Aside: I struggle with this word)

Justification, then, is conditioned by faith. Yet this cannot be the relation. Objective justification is before faith. We are justified objectively regardless of our faith. In eternal election all those given to Christ by the Father are righteous before God forever. This righteousness cannot be contingent upon faith, even though it is true that the gift of righteousness cannot be appropriated except by a true and living faith. Besides, the justification of all the elect is accomplished forever in the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ long before they believe. Further, although it is true that they cannot receive justification except by means of faith, this faith is not of them, but is a gift of God. Faith is, therefore, not a condition that they must fulfill in order to be justified. Justification is strictly unconditional. Herman Hoeksema – Reformed Dogmatics

Faith is not the cause, but an effect of justification; it is not the cause of it in any sense; it is not the moving cause, that is the free grace of God; "Being justified freely by his grace", (Romans 3:24) nor the efficient cause of it; "It is God that justifies", (Romans 8:33) nor the meritorious cause, as some express it; or the matter of it, that is the obedience and blood of Christ, (Romans 5:9, 19) or the righteousness of Christ, consisting of his active and passive obedience; nor even the instrumental cause; for, as Mr. Baxter himself argues, "If faith is the instrument of our justification, it is the instrument either of God or man; not of man, for justification is God's act; he is the sole Justifier, (Romans 3:26) man does not justify himself: nor of God, for it is not God that believes": nor is it a "causa sine qua non", as the case of elect infants shows; it is not in any class of causes whatever; but it is the effect of justification: all men have not faith, and the reason why some do not believe is, because they are none of Christ's sheep; they were not chosen in him, nor justified through him; but justly left in their sins, and so to condemnation; the reason why others believe is, because they are ordained to eternal life, have a justifying righteousness provided for them, and are justified by it, and shall never enter into condemnation: the reason why any are justified, is not because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith, is because they are justified; was there no such blessing of grace as justification of life in Christ, for the sons of men, there would be no such thing as faith in Christ bestowed on them; precious faith is obtained through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ, (2 Peter 1:1) nor, indeed, would there be any room for it, nor any use of it, if a justifying righteousness was not previously provided. Faith is the evidence and manifestation of justification, and therefore justification must be before it; "Faith is the evidence of things not seen", (Hebrews 11:1) but it is not the evidence of that which as yet is not; what it is an evidence of, must be, and it must exist before it. The "righteousness of God", of the God-man and mediator Jesus Christ, "is revealed from faith to faith", in the everlasting gospel, (Romans 1:17) and therefore must be before it is revealed, and before faith, to which it is revealed: faith is that grace whereby a soul, having seen its guilt, and its want of righteousness, beholds, in the light of the divine Spirit, a complete righteousness in Christ, renounces its own, lays hold off that, puts it on as a garment, rejoices in it, and glories of it; the Spirit of God witnessing to his spirit, that he is a justified person; and so he is evidently and declaratively "justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:11). Faith adds nothing to the "esse" only to the "bene esse" of justification; it is no part of, nor any ingredient in it; it is a complete act in the eternal mind of God, without the being or consideration of faith, or any foresight of it; a man is as much justified before as after it, in the account of God; and after he does believe, his justification does not depend on his acts of faith; for though "we believe not, yet he abides faithful"; that is, God is faithful to his covenant engagements with his Son, as their Surety, by whose suretyship righteousness they are justified; but by faith men have a comfortable sense, perception and apprehension of their justification, and enjoy that peace of soul which results from it. Justification is the object, and faith the act that is conversant with it. Now every object is prior to the act that is concerned with it; unless when an act gives being to the object, which is not the case here; for faith, as has been seen, is not the cause, nor matter of justification. John Gill – A Body of Doctrinal Divinity

When is one Justified

In his eternal counsel God has ordained Christ as mediator and head of all the elect. Therefore, it must be true that God knew the elect in Christ as justified from all eternity.
The elect do not become righteous before God in time by faith, but they are righteous in the tribunal of God from before the foundation of the earth. God beholds them in eternity not as sinners, but as perfectly righteous, as redeemed, as justified in Christ: He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel Numbers 23:21; Romans 8:29-30.
Eternal justification is realized in time and is grounded historically in the death of Christ. Christ died for all the elect. He atoned once and forever for all the sins of those whom the Father had given him from before the foundation of the world. Hence in the hour of judgment on the cross, they all are justified objectively forever. Their sins can never be imputed to them anymore, and they have a right to eternal life. On the cross the debt of the sins of all the elect was paid, and they are righteous before God. Herman Hoeksema – Reformed Dogmatics

Full disclosure ... this is still somewhat confusing to me

And a Big Amen, may God be pleased to confirm you in this Blessed Truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

atpollard brightfame52

I hate to say this, but I am beginning to side with Bright ... I was going to throw Romans 5:1 in Bright's face and conclude that once again I proved I was right (which is my favored conclusion ) but I looked at others commentary and now think he at least has a strong point and I hestitantly throw my lot with him. Granted, this explanation is difficult for me to take in in its entirety.

Here's what I found.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified [that is, acquitted of sin, declared blameless before God] by faith,

“We must note at once that the Greek form of this verb ‘declared righteous,’ or ‘justified,’ is not the present participle, ‘being declared righteous,’ but rather the aorist participle, ‘having been declared righteous,’ or ‘justified.’ You say, What is the difference? The answer is, ‘being declared righteous’ looks to a state you are in; ‘having been declared righteous’ looks back to a fact that happened. Tom Constable
The AORIST tense always conveys a single, discreet action (i.e. simple aspect). This is the most common tense for referring to action in the past. (Aside: I struggle with this word)

Justification, then, is conditioned by faith. Yet this cannot be the relation. Objective justification is before faith. We are justified objectively regardless of our faith. In eternal election all those given to Christ by the Father are righteous before God forever. This righteousness cannot be contingent upon faith, even though it is true that the gift of righteousness cannot be appropriated except by a true and living faith. Besides, the justification of all the elect is accomplished forever in the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ long before they believe. Further, although it is true that they cannot receive justification except by means of faith, this faith is not of them, but is a gift of God. Faith is, therefore, not a condition that they must fulfill in order to be justified. Justification is strictly unconditional. Herman Hoeksema – Reformed Dogmatics

Faith is not the cause, but an effect of justification; it is not the cause of it in any sense; it is not the moving cause, that is the free grace of God; "Being justified freely by his grace", (Romans 3:24) nor the efficient cause of it; "It is God that justifies", (Romans 8:33) nor the meritorious cause, as some express it; or the matter of it, that is the obedience and blood of Christ, (Romans 5:9, 19) or the righteousness of Christ, consisting of his active and passive obedience; nor even the instrumental cause; for, as Mr. Baxter himself argues, "If faith is the instrument of our justification, it is the instrument either of God or man; not of man, for justification is God's act; he is the sole Justifier, (Romans 3:26) man does not justify himself: nor of God, for it is not God that believes": nor is it a "causa sine qua non", as the case of elect infants shows; it is not in any class of causes whatever; but it is the effect of justification: all men have not faith, and the reason why some do not believe is, because they are none of Christ's sheep; they were not chosen in him, nor justified through him; but justly left in their sins, and so to condemnation; the reason why others believe is, because they are ordained to eternal life, have a justifying righteousness provided for them, and are justified by it, and shall never enter into condemnation: the reason why any are justified, is not because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith, is because they are justified; was there no such blessing of grace as justification of life in Christ, for the sons of men, there would be no such thing as faith in Christ bestowed on them; precious faith is obtained through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ, (2 Peter 1:1) nor, indeed, would there be any room for it, nor any use of it, if a justifying righteousness was not previously provided. Faith is the evidence and manifestation of justification, and therefore justification must be before it; "Faith is the evidence of things not seen", (Hebrews 11:1) but it is not the evidence of that which as yet is not; what it is an evidence of, must be, and it must exist before it. The "righteousness of God", of the God-man and mediator Jesus Christ, "is revealed from faith to faith", in the everlasting gospel, (Romans 1:17) and therefore must be before it is revealed, and before faith, to which it is revealed: faith is that grace whereby a soul, having seen its guilt, and its want of righteousness, beholds, in the light of the divine Spirit, a complete righteousness in Christ, renounces its own, lays hold off that, puts it on as a garment, rejoices in it, and glories of it; the Spirit of God witnessing to his spirit, that he is a justified person; and so he is evidently and declaratively "justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:11). Faith adds nothing to the "esse" only to the "bene esse" of justification; it is no part of, nor any ingredient in it; it is a complete act in the eternal mind of God, without the being or consideration of faith, or any foresight of it; a man is as much justified before as after it, in the account of God; and after he does believe, his justification does not depend on his acts of faith; for though "we believe not, yet he abides faithful"; that is, God is faithful to his covenant engagements with his Son, as their Surety, by whose suretyship righteousness they are justified; but by faith men have a comfortable sense, perception and apprehension of their justification, and enjoy that peace of soul which results from it. Justification is the object, and faith the act that is conversant with it. Now every object is prior to the act that is concerned with it; unless when an act gives being to the object, which is not the case here; for faith, as has been seen, is not the cause, nor matter of justification. John Gill – A Body of Doctrinal Divinity

When is one Justified

In his eternal counsel God has ordained Christ as mediator and head of all the elect. Therefore, it must be true that God knew the elect in Christ as justified from all eternity.
The elect do not become righteous before God in time by faith, but they are righteous in the tribunal of God from before the foundation of the earth. God beholds them in eternity not as sinners, but as perfectly righteous, as redeemed, as justified in Christ: He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel Numbers 23:21; Romans 8:29-30.
Eternal justification is realized in time and is grounded historically in the death of Christ. Christ died for all the elect. He atoned once and forever for all the sins of those whom the Father had given him from before the foundation of the world. Hence in the hour of judgment on the cross, they all are justified objectively forever. Their sins can never be imputed to them anymore, and they have a right to eternal life. On the cross the debt of the sins of all the elect was paid, and they are righteous before God. Herman Hoeksema – Reformed Dogmatics

Full disclosure ... this is still somewhat confusing to me

I just got here and have not read all of the postings (I really never do anyway)....

But I see what the problem is and I did reply a big NO back, maybe yesterday.
There is no timing problem outside of Reformed theology.
Also, commentaries are not scripture...


Here is the other method:

1. Man is born lost. Romans 3:23 Romans 5:12
2. God reveals Himself to man. Romans 1:16 Romans 1:20
3. Man decides if he wants to be on God's side or not. Romans 6:16 Romans 10:13
4. The moment the man decides he wants to love and serve God, he is justified. Romans 5:1 Romans 5:18

End.


brightfame52
atpollard

 

[Fastfredy0]

I'll make this easy for you:

Always the mocking disposition. *sigh*

 

[GodsGrace]

Always the mocking disposition. *sigh*

It does make things very easy.
Because YOU mock does not mean everyone does.

Was it easy or not?
No need for pages long commentaries.
Who even reads/needs commentaries?
How do the illiterate read the bible and come to know God since they don't have access to commentaries?

Reformed theology makes everything difficult.
It's really very easy.

 

[Fastfredy0]

No need for pages long commentaries.
Who even reads/needs commentaries?

So hypocritical. All day long you make comments to the point that you have above 24,000 comments on this forum and then you makes posts like above saying no need for commentaries.

 

[GodsGrace]

So hypocritical. All day long you make comments to the point that you have above 24,000 comments on this forum and then you makes posts like above saying no need for commentaries.

Are you comparing me to the commentaries on biblehub?
Thanks!

And, BTW, YOU do the same thing.
You're going to start with the name-calling again?

 

[Fastfredy0]

And, BTW, YOU do the same thing.
You're going to start with the name-calling again?

I didn't call you a hypocrite. I said your statement of hypocritical. You said you don't like commentaries and yet you've made 24,000 comments on here. That's hypocritical. Perhaps 'contradictory' would have been more diplomatic.
I do like commentaries and I make comments. This is not hypocritical.

Let's go for a truce (probably won't work). No name calling, no mocking.

 

[brightfame52]

wondering

1. Man is born lost. Romans 3:23 Romans 5:12
2. God reveals Himself to man. Romans 1:16 Romans 1:20

In Salvation Gods revelation isnt merely natural, its inward and Spiritual. Like Paul said, Christ was revealed in him Gal 1:16
To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Jn 12:38

That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

When its time for one of Gods elect to believe the Gospel, its content, the righteousness of God is revealed to faith from faith

Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein[The Gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The righteousness of God isnt revealed in natural creation, trees, mountains and oceans etc

And Faith is a spiritual fruit Gal 5:22

 

[Angelical]

I think this can all be discussed from even a Scientific perspective.

A Theory and B Theory of Time

A Theory says this Moment is happening, and the last moment happened before it, and the next one happens next.

B Theory says that it all happened, or is all happening at once, and we only perceive Time and Moments. So there would be a Natural Reality we can’t comprehend with our 5 or so senses (Thought was a Sense in Ancient Egypt) where it’s all here, and God operates there with other Invisible Entities. And that’s the same as B Theory and Calvinism. Predestination.

Now,
Prophets see the Future. I have had experiences myself that cause me to be unable to deny there is something that can see at least the next few Moments if not much further into the Future. So if there is any Fulfilled Prophecy to any extent that verifies that Prophecy, we can start to say B Theory is undeniable. But, that doesn’t necessarily verify maybe everything Calvin said about the Elect, I’m not sure.