Question on the perspective of God as a result of Calvinist doctrine

[GodsGrace]

I can't prove anything to people that is God's business. But if you condition salvation on anything you do it's works.

But we don't DO anything....
And we should be able to prove something biblically.

God's business was to get the word written so we could use it for reference and support.

Otherwise we could each believe whatever we want to.

 

[Fastfredy0]

were you Justified before God by the shed blood of Christ before you believed, even before you were regenerated ? Yes or No

asked and answered

 

[atpollard]

So do you deny the witness of the resurrection that those whom Christ put away their sins are Justified before God ?

I deny nothing, I merely affirm the MESSAGE of scripture taken from its context rather than the pretext of “gotcha” phrases ripped out of their sentences and paragraphs.

Romans 4 [NKJV]

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.​

… And you think it has NOTHING to do with our FAITH or BELIEF.
Well, it SAYS “SHALL BE” not “WAS”, so yes indeed, Jesus completed His part but it is not yet ours until God draws (John 6:44) and makes that dead man, alive (Ephesians 2:4-5). Until then, we are Ephesians 2:1-3 “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.”

 

[brightfame52]

But we don't DO anything....
And we should be able to prove something biblically.

God's business was to get the word written so we could use it for reference and support.

Otherwise we could each believe whatever we want to.

Only God can give you understanding, thats beyond my ability, I can only witness the Truth as I see it, and even that is by the Grace of God.

 

[brightfame52]

asked and answered

No it wasnt answered. Im going to ask you again, is a person Christ died for, Justified before God, sins all forgiven, viewed as righteous before God, before they are regenerated and given the gift of faith to believe the Gospel. Yes or No

Your buddy atpollard said NO, what say you ?

 

[brightfame52]

atpollard

I deny nothing

Well scripture tells me that those for whom Christ died, when He arose again they were Justified Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
who was betrayed and crucified because of our sins, and was raised [from the dead] because of our justification [our acquittal—absolving us of all sin before God].AMP

 

[GodsGrace]

Only God can give you understanding, thats beyond my ability, I can only witness the Truth as I see it, and even that is by the Grace of God.

This is true.

Jesus said we are to be united and one in spirit and understanding.

I wonder why God makes us Not be one?
Can't He accomplish what Jesus said?

Was Jesus wrong in His belief?
Was He making statements about an outcome God didn't want to decree??

 

[atpollard]

Well scripture tells me that those for whom Christ died, when He arose again they were Justified Rom 4:25

You are ascribing the WHEN to the ORDO SALUTIS, not Romans 4:25 [which only ascribes WHY to the event].

Here are the two HISTORIC Ordo Salutis (Order of Salvation):

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is

1) election/predestination (in Christ),​

2) Atonement​

3) gospel call​

4) inward call​

5) regeneration,​

6) conversion (faith & repentance),​

7) justification,​

8) sanctification, and​

9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)​

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is

1) outward call​

2) faith/election,​

3) repentance,​

4) regeneration,​

5) justification,​

6) perseverance,​

7) glorification.​

​

You are proposing to move Justification to Position 3 making the brightfame52 Ordo Salutis:

1) Election/predestination (before the foundation of the World),​

2) Atonement (at the death of Christ)​

3) Justification (at the resurrection of Christ)​

(nothing after Justification really matters ... according to you, we are saved and have eternal life, so "whatever")​

​

 

[brightfame52]

You are ascribing the WHEN to the ORDO SALUTIS, not Romans 4:25 [which only ascribes WHY to the event].

Here are the two HISTORIC Ordo Salutis (Order of Salvation):

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is

1) election/predestination (in Christ),​

2) Atonement​

3) gospel call​

4) inward call​

5) regeneration,​

6) conversion (faith & repentance),​

7) justification,​

8) sanctification, and​

9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)​

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is

1) outward call​

2) faith/election,​

3) repentance,​

4) regeneration,​

5) justification,​

6) perseverance,​

7) glorification.​

​

You are proposing to move Justification to Position 3 making the brightfame52 Ordo Salutis:

1) Election/predestination (before the foundation of the World),​

2) Atonement (at the death of Christ)​

3) Justification (at the resurrection of Christ)​

(nothing after Justification really matters ... according to you, we are saved and have eternal life, so "whatever")​

​

You are totally ignoring the testification of the resurrection of Christ Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Poole writes a comment on this verse:

And was raised again for our justification; not that his death had no hand in our justification; see Romans 3:24; but because our justification, which was begun in his death, was perfected in his resurrection. Christ did meritoriously work our justification and salvation by his death and passion, but the efficacy and perfection thereof with respect to us depend on his resurrection. By his death he paid our debt, in his resurrection he received our acquittance, Isaiah 53:8; when he was discharged, we in him, and together with him, received our discharge from the guilt and punishment of all our sins. This one verse is an abridgement of the whole gospel.

 

[atpollard]

You are totally ignoring the testification of the resurrection of Christ Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Poole writes a comment on this verse:

And was raised again for our justification; not that his death had no hand in our justification; see Romans 3:24; but because our justification, which was begun in his death, was perfected in his resurrection. Christ did meritoriously work our justification and salvation by his death and passion, but the efficacy and perfection thereof with respect to us depend on his resurrection. By his death he paid our debt, in his resurrection he received our acquittance, Isaiah 53:8; when he was discharged, we in him, and together with him, received our discharge from the guilt and punishment of all our sins. This one verse is an abridgement of the whole gospel.

Well, if you and Poole say so, then I will just take a Sharpie to Ephesians 2:1-3 since none of that applies to anyone born after Jesus' resurrection. How far should I black out ... it almost seems as if we are born saved and Ephesians 2:1-9 are all no longer applicable to our generation.

Boy, salvation sure got a lot easier! We don't need nuttin' ... no repent, no faith, no belief. He died and rose so we are all just saved! Hallelujah.

[You are ignoring EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE BIBLE!]

 

[Fastfredy0]

No it wasnt answered. Im going to ask you again, is a person Christ died for, Justified before God, sins all forgiven, viewed as righteous before God, before they are regenerated and given the gift of faith to believe the Gospel. Yes or No

Your buddy atpollard said NO, what say you ?

My buddy atpollard knows what he's talking about.

O.K. ... I'll go with the timeline answer instead of eternal perspective and say NO.
Premise 1: Justification come by faith
Premise 2: We come to faith somewhere on our time line on earth
Conclusion: We are justified at the time we believe.

From God eternal perspective in which time does not exist ...we were (hmm, 'were' is a tense and therefore not correct word in this context, oh well) always His sheep and always justified.

Maybe if I was justified when Jesus arose then maybe I was 'glorified' then too ....

 

[atpollard]

Maybe if I was justified when Jesus arose then maybe I was 'glorified' then too ....

yup ... (note the VERB TENSES in Young's Literal Translation)

Romans 8:29-30 [YLT]

29 because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren; 30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.​

​

Far as Go's concerned ... its a done deal! We just have to "walk it out" to finish the race and get to the end. [The conclusion is already settled according to the PLAN of "Him who works all things according to the council of His will" - Ephesians 1:11]​

 

[brightfame52]

Well, if you and Poole say so, then I will just take a Sharpie to Ephesians 2:1-3 since none of that applies to anyone born after Jesus' resurrection. How far should I black out ... it almost seems as if we are born saved and Ephesians 2:1-9 are all no longer applicable to our generation.

Boy, salvation sure got a lot easier! We don't need nuttin' ... no repent, no faith, no belief. He died and rose so we are all just saved! Hallelujah.

[You are ignoring EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE BIBLE!]

Lets look at Mr Gill

was raised again for our justification; he was raised again from the dead by his Father, to whom this is often ascribed; and by himself, by his own power, which proves him to be the mighty God; and this was done not only that he might live an immortal and glorious life in our nature, having finished the work he undertook and came about, but for "our justification". He died in the room and stead of his people, and by dying made satisfaction for their sins; he rose again as their head and representative, and was legally discharged, acquitted, and justified, and they in him. Christ's resurrection did not procure the justification of his people, that was done by his obedience and death; but was for the testification of it, that it might fully appear that sin was atoned for, and an everlasting righteousness was brought in; and for the application of it, or that Christ might live and see his righteousness imputed, and applied to all those for whom he had wrought it out.

You are ignoring the testification of Christs Resurrection friend. Thats unbelief

 

[brightfame52]

fastfredy

O.K. ... I'll go with the timeline answer instead of eternal perspective and say NO.

I knew it all the time, then you believe in Justification before God by works, by what man does. Also you have denied what you said you believed, that the ones Christ died for were Justified from eternity.

To say that, then turn around and deny that the elect were Justified before God at the Cross is the greatest contradiction it is. For even the Justification of the elect before the foundation is premised on the Cross Work of Christ to be accomplished in time. Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[atpollard]

You are ignoring the testification of Christs Resurrection friend. Thats unbelief

Unbelief is OK ... according to YOU I don't need belief to be saved.

Are now you advocating WORKS SALVATION?​

 

[Fastfredy0]

was raised again for our justification; he was raised again from the dead by his Father, to whom this is often ascribed; and by himself, by his own power, which proves him to be the mighty God; and this was done not only that he might live an immortal and glorious life in our nature, having finished the work he undertook and came about, but for "our justification". He died in the room and stead of his people, and by dying made satisfaction for their sins; he rose again as their head and representative, and was legally discharged, acquitted, and justified, and they in him. Christ's resurrection did not procure the justification of his people, that was done by his obedience and death; but was for the testification of it, that it might fully appear that sin was atoned for, and an everlasting righteousness was brought in; and for the application of it, or that Christ might live and see his righteousness imputed, and applied to all those for whom he had wrought it out.

There is nothing here as to the time Christ's work is applied to an individual. It says Christ finished the work that is necessary to impute His righteous to us. The timing of the application is not mentioned. Other scripture alludes to the timing as shown below:

• The cause of justification is faith ... Roman 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith,
• When does faith come? When we are regenerated. Although regeneration causes Faith + Repentance simultaneously, the logical order is Regeneration first as God is the cause of our Faith + Repentance.
• So, to answer the question: "when does justification occur" .. the answer is at the moment you are "born again" you are justified by the work of God

Aside: atpollard gave a similar, more expansive timing chart (Order of Salvation)

You are ignoring the testification of Christs Resurrection friend. Thats unbelief

I'd say you are not comprehending God's word and not applying a little logic to answer a relatively unimportant question which technically is "unbelief" but I prefer to use the less confrontational words: "That's misunderstanding".

 

[Fastfredy0]

I knew it all the time, then you believe in Justification before God by works, by what man does.

No. How can you represent Reformed theology and get such a critical concept WRONG. I'll explain it one more time, but I am confident you won't understand it.

I am saved by Faith which causes my repentance. The faith is something I DO. It is a work. Now to the crux of the matter that you don't comprehend: The Person doing the work is GOD who causes me to have faith and repent. Thus, it is not WORKS SALVATION which is defined as a person being the CAUSE of his faith.
My faith is an effect, it is the work of God and not me.

ASIDE: God has no such thing as Faith and He never repents (save anthropomorphism) so since we are saved by faith it has to be me that has faith ... again, said faith caused by God and therefore not WORKS SALVATION.

 

[brightfame52]

Unbelief is OK ... according to YOU I don't need belief to be saved.

Are now you advocating WORKS SALVATION?​

Im saying you deny the testimony of Christs Resurrection, that those He died for, He Justified them before God, because He put away their sins. To deny that Testification is very serious friend, true Faith believes that testification

 

[brightfame52]

fastfredy

No.

Yes

 

[atpollard]

Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Read what it says and not what you WANT IT TO SAY.

Im saying you deny the testimony of Christs Resurrection

False. I acknowledge that Christ was Resurrected.

that those He died for, He Justified them before God,

I acknowledged that in my explanation "ALREADY and NOT YET" ... that was "PAST: We were saved."

because He put away their sins.

Read Romans 4:25 again ... it doesn't say that. "He put away their sins" appears nowhere in that verse. The term for adding your thoughts into a verse is eisegesis. It may be true that Jesus "put away" our sins, but that is not found in Romans 4:25 which means: [NLT] "He was handed over to die because of our sins, and he was raised to life to make us right with God." (Dynamic Equivalence Translations are good at getting to the general meaning of a verse).

To deny that Testification is very serious friend, true Faith believes that testification

Romans 14:4 [NLT] "Who are you to condemn someone else's servants? Their own master will judge whether they stand or fall. And with the Lord's help, they will stand and receive his approval."