Question

[Rollo Tamasi]

wondering,

First John was written to refute the Gnostic heresy. So was Against Heresies by the early church father, Irenaeus.

What Gnostics believe is as easy as finding a needle in a haystack. However, here are some basics:

• It is based on the Greek word, gnōsis, knowledge. For Gnostics, what is known has changed many times ever since the Gnostic hay day of the 1st century.
• You need to acquire mystical knowledge, which is Gnostic salvation.
• Yes, there is a Great God, but he's unknowable.
• A Demiurge (Creator) is not all-good, but is 'a bungling and incompetent fool that creates the world as a spiritual prison'.
• For Gnosticism there is a distinction between the highest, unknowable "alien God" and the "creator" of the material - the Demiurge - who is a lesser creator God who messed up in creating the world. Instead of getting a 'good universe', this inferior god infected the world with sin and pain. Along with that comes spiritual, gnostic blindness.
• As for the human body, a built-in good soul/spirit is trapped in an evil, material body.

This is contrary to biblical Christianity where salvation is found only in Jesus (Acts 4:12). For the Gnostics, they redeem themselves by examining the inner 'spark' that needs to be set free from the evil fleshly body.

Some Gnostics deny God's existence and human beings become deities.

Gnosticism and Christianity are mutually exclusive. Why? I cannot improve myself by human wisdom because, 'The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction' (Prov 1:7 NIV).

Oz

We had a nurse in the hospital that claimed to be a gnostic.
Said she believed some things that you say here.
Poor girl, she tried so hard to keep us from her father when he got sick, but alas, he got saved...

 

[OzSpen]

OzSpen

1 John 2:19 speaks to this.
They were already present even when Jesus was still alive.

wondering,

Would you believe there are now people claiming to be Christian Gnostics? That's a paradox of terminology.

These Christian Gnostics believe in the deity of Christ but they reject his humanity. In fact, he only 'appeared' to be human.

This has more in common with the antichrist (1 John 4:2–3).

Oz

 

[PeterJens]

wondering,

Would you believe there are now people claiming to be Christian Gnostics? That's a paradox of terminology.

These Christian Gnostics believe in the deity of Christ but they reject his humanity. In fact, he only 'appeared' to be human.

This has more in common with the antichrist (1 John 4:2–3).

Oz

There are believers who hold to a perfect born spirit held in a fallen flesh that sins.

Responsibility for sin is the flesh, the believer is perfect and forgiven while sinning.

For ease of definition this split reality has been called gnostic and represents a large part of easy believism and the venom believing sinners have against righteous walkers.

I have had long exchanges with such folk who have given up on repenting and sorting one's life out at all. To them they have done it all and conviction of real actual sin is satanic. To me this is true lostness and hardness of heart.

This is gnostic, the secret knowledge is faith in Jesus and it's all sorted.

This is true but not like this

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Would you believe there are now people claiming to be Christian Gnostics? That's a paradox of terminology.

These Christian Gnostics believe in the deity of Christ but they reject his humanity. In fact, he only 'appeared' to be human.

This has more in common with the antichrist (1 John 4:2–3).

Oz

I find this pretty incredible.
There's a religion that claims that everything we see is not real.
I wonder if this is gnosticism,,,,it might be scientology.
Maybe scientology is a form of gnosticism?

I just read 1 John 4:2-3 it's right on.
It reminds me of that other verse you like about the Baraens in Acts.

This is why I had become Protestant....because we need the bible as an authoritative source - otherwise we can be turned this way and that without knowing the truth.

 

[OzSpen]

Responsibility for sin is the flesh, the believer is perfect and forgiven while sinning.

Peter,

The Scriptures disagree: 'The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?' (Jer 17:9 ESV).

Also, 'The soul who sins shall die' (Ezek 18:4, 20 ESV)

Neither of these Scriptures supports the theology that a believer can be 'perfect and forgiven while sinning'. I support the theology that a believer is justified before God - through Christ - will still having the power to sin because of our sinful nature.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I find this pretty incredible.
There's a religion that claims that everything we see is not real.
I wonder if this is gnosticism,,,,it might be scientology.
Maybe scientology is a form of gnosticism?

I just read 1 John 4:2-3 it's right on.
It reminds me of that other verse you like about the Baraens in Acts.

This is why I had become Protestant....because we need the bible as an authoritative source - otherwise we can be turned this way and that without knowing the truth.

wondering,

You'll also find this teaching in Hinduism. I encountered a pleasant Hindu in an Australian e-journal comments' section. I've arranged our interaction in dialogue form in, The Hindu worldview clashes with reality.

I find it hard to understand that anyone would take this worldview seriously. Take a read of some of the theology in this article, particularly in my interview with him. He's right out of touch with reality. The chair I sit on as I type is not real. We all are gods. It's an idolatrous religion.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

You'll also find this teaching in Hinduism. I encountered a pleasant Hindu in an Australian e-journal comments' section. I've arranged our interaction in dialogue form in, The Hindu worldview clashes with reality.

I find it hard to understand that anyone would take this worldview seriously. Take a read of some of the theology in this article, particularly in my interview with him. He's right out of touch with reality. The chair I sit on as I type is not real. We all are gods. It's an idolatrous religion.

Oz

It's pretty long Oz....
Later on or tomorrow morning.....

 

[PeterJens]

Peter,

The Scriptures disagree: 'The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?' (Jer 17:9 ESV).

Also, 'The soul who sins shall die' (Ezek 18:4, 20 ESV)

Neither of these Scriptures supports the theology that a believer can be 'perfect and forgiven while sinning'. I support the theology that a believer is justified before God - through Christ - will still having the power to sin because of our sinful nature.

Oz

I was putting what hyper grace people in general follow, not my beliefs.
I put their view as extreme, but it was surprising how many believers agreed with them.
For me the key point of failure was when then expressed a dispensational view that everything before Jesus death was for the jews to show them how much they failed and how much they needed Jesus.

Every command of Jesus was just sarcastic to show mans failure not as a goal or a promise to be fulfilled. At various times in my life, I would have agreed love is such an aspiration maybe it is just a dream. But now I think love is a statement of faith and a reaching out, in love and pain, to find others, and to forgive and receive Christs healing.

I know thorns and thistles, that I myself have given and that I have received. But I also know in all honesty in Christ this does not have to be so, that true openness and honesty is possible, without insecurity or the fear of losing a significant other.

I have a wife and 3 kids, and I know closeness and estrangement, the highs of sharing and the depths of despair and alienation. And I know through it all, forgiveness, grace and love do work and do reach people. Jesus's promise is not empty or impossible, but real, living and alive. But for betrayed, hurt, manipulated and lonely people this is like a dream awaiting the next betrayal and disappointment.

In Jesus though when we walk with Him, and know Him, and He has touched and healed us, we can reach out and know another, and be one in His love and grace. It took Jesus 3 years to get this close to the apostles, and they still had a few hiccups. So we often want too much too quickly. God bless you

What I have found is easy believers hate this idea, with a vengance, though I do not know why. Maybe it is the dream that legalism killed, and they think easy believism gives them at no cost, and the dream is the same as legalism so is evil and must be opposed as from satan. Certainly this has been their line of attack.

 

[OzSpen]

It's pretty long Oz....
Later on or tomorrow morning.....

wondering,

I confess it is a long article. I sense that many Christians don't understand the dynamics and lack of reality in the Hindu worldview. So, I began the article with some of these explanations.

Why don't you begin reading at:
4. Discussions with a Hindu[23]

I follow with an assessment of the content of the dialogue.

Oz

 

[PeterJens]

wondering,

I confess it is a long article. I sense that many Christians don't understand the dynamics and lack of reality in the Hindu worldview. So, I began the article with some of these explanations.

Why don't you begin reading at:
4. Discussions with a Hindu[23]

I follow with an assessment of the content of the dialogue.

Oz

Hinduism seems to be a belief that existence is suffering and the only release is becoming one with the essence of everything.

It was funny how yoga was seen as beneficial to business, the calming of the soul and removing of stress, because Hinduism in it very essence is escaping from reality into the oneness, so business is irrelevant. Business people just see a relaxation tool, not the destruction of purpose and drive which is ironic, but then they come from a truth and goal centric culture aimed at sorting things out and bringing about a successful balanced life, very much in touch with the real world.

 

[OzSpen]

Hinduism seems to be a belief that existence is suffering and the only release is becoming one with the essence of everything.

It was funny how yoga was seen as beneficial to business, the calming of the soul and removing of stress, because Hinduism in it very essence is escaping from reality into the oneness, so business is irrelevant. Business people just see a relaxation tool, not the destruction of purpose and drive which is ironic, but then they come from a truth and goal centric culture aimed at sorting things out and bringing about a successful balanced life, very much in touch with the real world.

Peter,

Well said!

This State primary school not far from where I live is doing this in class: Meditation hailed as important tool for teaching kids to cope with stress and anxiety.

I wrote to the Department of Education, Queensland, to complain that this was teaching Eastern religion, without labelling it as religion. I received a reply but it was far from satisfactory. I was told to take it up with the school principal. I can't really do that as I don't know anybody/Christian living in the school's catchment area.

However, it's a clever example of how these yogic techniques can creep in without owning up to the religious connection.

Oz

 

[Who Me]

There is information about Hinduism and about the reality behind it.
I recommend the autobiography, ' Death of a Guru ' by Rab Maharaj.
He was a bramin priest/guru and know the power that is behind Hinduism.

A part I remember well:-
I was worshipping the god within me circling the mirror with a devotional flame, when my elbow knocked the image of Krishna off the near by shelf.
Picking it up I found one of the arms was bent.
I hugged the image wishing I could express my remorse, but knowing there was no forgiveness in Hinduism and that my karma would inflect a terrible punishment!'

 

[PeterJens]

Peter,

Well said!

This State primary school not far from where I live is doing this in class: Meditation hailed as important tool for teaching kids to cope with stress and anxiety.

I wrote to the Department of Education, Queensland, to complain that this was teaching Eastern religion, without labelling it as religion. I received a reply but it was far from satisfactory. I was told to take it up with the school principal. I can't really do that as I don't know anybody/Christian living in the school's catchment area.

However, it's a clever example of how these yogic techniques can creep in without owning up to the religious connection.

Oz

The phrase "Be still and know that I am God" is a meditation of calmness.
Taking the sabbath rest in our lives is also a place of calmness.

So though meditation could be seen in a religious context, it is neutral, and as believers in prayer and praise resting in Him is part of our worship.

Commit your way to the LORD, Trust also in Him, And He shall bring it to pass.
Psalm 37:5

So much anxiousness is caused because people no longer trust in the Lord and believe He has their best interests to heart. When you see the risks people were prepared to take you can also see the faith they exercised in committing it to the Lord.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

The phrase "Be still and know that I am God" is a meditation of calmness.
Taking the sabbath rest in our lives is also a place of calmness.

So though meditation could be seen in a religious context, it is neutral, and as believers in prayer and praise resting in Him is part of our worship.

Commit your way to the LORD, Trust also in Him, And He shall bring it to pass.
Psalm 37:5

So much anxiousness is caused because people no longer trust in the Lord and believe He has their best interests to heart. When you see the risks people were prepared to take you can also see the faith they exercised in committing it to the Lord.

Amen!

Walter

 

[GodsGrace]

I was putting what hyper grace people in general follow, not my beliefs.
I put their view as extreme, but it was surprising how many believers agreed with them.
For me the key point of failure was when then expressed a dispensational view that everything before Jesus death was for the jews to show them how much they failed and how much they needed Jesus.

Every command of Jesus was just sarcastic to show mans failure not as a goal or a promise to be fulfilled. At various times in my life, I would have agreed love is such an aspiration maybe it is just a dream. But now I think love is a statement of faith and a reaching out, in love and pain, to find others, and to forgive and receive Christs healing.

I know thorns and thistles, that I myself have given and that I have received. But I also know in all honesty in Christ this does not have to be so, that true openness and honesty is possible, without insecurity or the fear of losing a significant other.

I have a wife and 3 kids, and I know closeness and estrangement, the highs of sharing and the depths of despair and alienation. And I know through it all, forgiveness, grace and love do work and do reach people. Jesus's promise is not empty or impossible, but real, living and alive. But for betrayed, hurt, manipulated and lonely people this is like a dream awaiting the next betrayal and disappointment.

In Jesus though when we walk with Him, and know Him, and He has touched and healed us, we can reach out and know another, and be one in His love and grace. It took Jesus 3 years to get this close to the apostles, and they still had a few hiccups. So we often want too much too quickly. God bless you

What I have found is easy believers hate this idea, with a vengance, though I do not know why. Maybe it is the dream that legalism killed, and they think easy believism gives them at no cost, and the dream is the same as legalism so is evil and must be opposed as from satan. Certainly this has been their line of attack.

Amen.
Agreed on all.
:nod

 

[OzSpen]

The phrase "Be still and know that I am God" is a meditation of calmness.
Taking the sabbath rest in our lives is also a place of calmness.

So though meditation could be seen in a religious context, it is neutral, and as believers in prayer and praise resting in Him is part of our worship.

Commit your way to the LORD, Trust also in Him, And He shall bring it to pass.
Psalm 37:5

So much anxiousness is caused because people no longer trust in the Lord and believe He has their best interests to heart. When you see the risks people were prepared to take you can also see the faith they exercised in committing it to the Lord.

That is not what is being taught in the Brighton State School, Qld classroom. That principal is recommending the 'technique' for schools across the State.

 

[WIP]

The part of their ideology I am attracted to is the idea that if we were made in God's image then the Trinity must have some feminine qualities. If God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all male then why create both men and women in his image.

I'm not sure that we are always understanding what Genesis 1:26-27 really means.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
(NKJV)

The translated words chosen can mean a couple things. On the one hand, it could mean we have the physical appearance like that of God. To what level that can be taken is unsure since it says both male and female are images of God (v27). On the other hand, it could mean that we have similar characteristics to that of God. We have emotions, we can rationalize and make conscious choices, and we can love. These characteristics are not gender defined.

What is the image of God? Do we physically look like God? The Bible says God is Spirit (John 4:24). God appeared to Moses like a burning bush (Exodus 3). God appeared to the Israelites on mount Sinai as a voice out of clouds, smoke, and fire (Exodus 19:16 - 20:21). God appeared to Saul (Paul) and his companions as a flash of brilliantly bright light and a voice (Acts 9:1-9). God appeared to many in dreams. God appeared to the people on earth as a baby that grew into a man.

God may not have an actual gender but in Scripture Jesus referred to Him as the Father and instructs us to do likewise (Matthew 6:9). Jesus also used the pronoun, He, when speaking of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26). Was that because of the male dominant culture of the day or because applying a gender made it easier to communicate with the people of that time or something else? We will know when we see Him face to face but for now I will follow Jesus' direction.

 

[Susannah]

Amen. There are so many speculations. Who knows what is correct. My favorite ideology is that God is Spirit. Jesus is Spirit. The Holy Spirit is Spirit . I imagine that spirituality is light an energy. The three spirits are like a family. I also like to imagine the Holy Spirit has the emotions of the feminine but this is just a theory. It just makes me feel good.

 

[Episcopius]

This is an old thread but has good thoughts in it.
In Proverbs 8 is the Wisdom figure that is feminine.
In the New Testament the Holy Spirit is usually in masculine gender but sometimes is neuter.
In the Old Testament the word RUACH ( for spirit ) in Hebrew is feminine.

 

[Link1983]

On the other hand though I think there's a verse in the old Testiment calling wisdom a "she." So in that sense of the spirit of wisdom is a she (or is it the angel of wisdom?), then it's possible for the Holy Spirit to be considered a she. But that's just a possibility
I wouldn't put a doctrine on it or teach it as true. It's just a possibility at tgat point.

The Bible refer to the Holy Spirit as He.
All three is referred to as He or Him.
But God created man in His image.
Man includes both Adam and Eve.
So I would believe both genders have the qualities that is in Him.
But God is a spirit.
So it is a different kind of nature than we might think.

As to the bride. The bride is the church. The church is the believers. And Jesus is the head of the bride.
It is spiritual and on another level than a difference between sexes..