Questioning the Rapture

[tentex25]

I know there are quite a few people out there who do not believe in the Rapture and that it doesn't appear in the Bible. My question to those people is, what is going to happen if the rapture is not going to take place?

 

[Novum]

I know there are quite a few people out there who do not believe in the Rapture and that it doesn't appear in the Bible. My question to those people is, what is going to happen if the rapture is not going to take place?

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean. The rapture has "not been taking place" for the past 2006 years now; what are you getting at?

 

[Sothenes]

I know there are quite a few people out there who do not believe in the Rapture and that it doesn't appear in the Bible. My question to those people is, what is going to happen if the rapture is not going to take place?

If the rapture doesn't take place then all believers living at the time will go through the Great Tribulation and suffer the judgment of God reserved for unbelievers poured out without admixture.

 

[Solo]

I know there are quite a few people out there who do not believe in the Rapture and that it doesn't appear in the Bible. My question to those people is, what is going to happen if the rapture is not going to take place?

When Jesus returns after the great tribulation, all those that are in Christ Jesus will gather to be with him in the air, after which all of the unbelieving will experience the wrath of God. Just as Noah and his family was saved from God's wrath in the ark, so to will all believers be spared God's wrath at the end.

The great tribulation is the tribulation that satan spews out upon the children of God in the end whereby the whole world will be under his dominion until Jesus returns to reap the harvest from the four corners of the world. After this harvest, the world will undergo the wrath of God and the New Jerusalem will lower from heaven for the millenium reign of Jesus Christ for one thousand years. After the one thousand years, the second resurrection of the dead will occur, and each one of them will be judged according to their works. All those who are not chosen of God will be cast into the lake of fire forever, and those that are chosen of God will dwell with Him forever.

 

[thessalonian]

I think we need to distinguish between "rapture" (interestingly enough a latin word) and pre-trib rapture. There are actually several theories to answer your question. Most Christians actually do believe in a "rapture", i.e. a bodily resurrection at some point. The question is whether it happens before a period called the tribulation or not. This period is a period when there will be great suffering as never experienced before on the earth. Some believe the trib has already occured with the roman persecution and do not really believe in a rapture. Some however believe the tribulation is yet to occur and that there is a rapture but Christians go through the tribulation and the rapture is after the tribulation when Christ comes again. Others believe that Christians wil not go through the tribulation. This is call amillenialism. That God will take them from the world before the tribulation. This is pre-trib rapture.

I hold the middle view.

Blessings

 

[MrVersatile48]

Must be the unaccustomed heat confusing everyone? :

I'll reply in bold between phrases (if it ain't too confusing!) :wink:

I think we need to distinguish between "rapture" (interestingly enough a latin word) and pre-trib rapture.

Best translated 'to catch/snatch up'

There are actually several theories to answer your question. Most Christians actually do believe in a "rapture", i.e. a bodily resurrection at some point. The question is whether it happens before a period called the tribulation or not. This period is a period when there will be great suffering as never experienced before on the earth.

As Jesus said in Matthew 24 - 'such as has never been before, or will be again'

Some believe the trib has already occured with the roman persecution and do not really believe in a rapture.


As modern nuclear & biochem weapons inflict worse agonies, the 1st century doesn't fit the bill

Revelation 16 specifies that all vegetation will be burnt, all waters poisoned, strange sores on peoples' bodies & the sun scorching men etc

Zechariah 14 specifies men's eyes, tongues & flesh rotting where they stand: the 1st century didn't have the 21st century means to do just that (via napalm & thermonuclear holocaust/biochem warfare, etc)

Some however believe the tribulation is yet to occur and that there is a rapture but Christians go through the tribulation and the rapture is after the tribulation when Christ comes again. Others believe that Christians wil not go through the tribulation. This is call amillenialism. That God will take them from the world before the tribulation. This is pre-trib rapture.

I hold the middle view.

Blessings

I was going to split the last paragraph, but it would be too disjointed

1st the minor point: a-millenial means there would be no 1000 year reign of Christ, dispensing perfect peace & justice from Zion, but that is disbelieving Isaiah 65-66, Zechariah 14, Revelation 20 etc

When Jesus promised the instant airlift Rapture rescue, in Matt 24:30-31, etc, He said that without it, 'no flesh would survive'

1 Thessalonians 5 underlines the point that Christians are NOT destined to go through the time of God's wrath being poured out, but to be saved from it

Just time to say that if He left the Rapture till after total apocalyptic destruction, there would be no-one left to save - as He said in Matt 24

In Rev 2-3, the church is on Earth

Rev 4:1 pictures the Rapture & from then on, the church isn't mentioned

The Great Tribulation starts in Rev 6

Must go

Ian

 

[thessalonian]

Nope, you are wrong Mr. V. But the 1000 would be figurative and not literal. We live in the reign of Christ. He reigns now in our hearts and minds. This is the 1000 year reign.

1 Cor 15
25: For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Blessings

 

[Henry]

Uhmm the great tribulation, the rapture ??? I think some of you are watching too many movies.

That whole left behind, dispensational veiw is pure fantasy

 

[Drew]

From NT Wright (a British theologian I believe). I have added some bolding:

The American obsession with the second coming of Jesus  especially with distorted interpretations of it  continues unabated. Seen from my side of the Atlantic, the phenomenal success of the Left Behind books appears puzzling, even bizarre. Few in the U.K. hold the belief on which the popular series of novels is based: that there will be a literal “rapture†in which believers will be snatched up to heaven.....

This dramatic end-time scenario is based (wrongly, as we shall see) on Paul’s First Letter to the Thessalonians, where he writes: “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord†(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

What on earth (or in heaven) did Paul mean?

It is Paul who should be credited with creating this scenario. Jesus himself, as I have argued in various books, never predicted such an event. The gospel passages about “the Son of Man coming on the clouds†(Mark 13:26, 14:62, for example) are about Jesus’ vindication, his “coming†to heaven from earth. The parables about a returning king or master (for example, Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem, not about Jesus returning to earth. This, Jesus seemed to believe, was an event within space-time history, not one that would end it forever.

The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines, and I don’t deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God’s new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels. But this event won’t in any way resemble the Left Behind account. Understanding what will happen requires a far more sophisticated cosmology than the one in which “heaven†is somewhere up there in our universe, rather than in a different dimension, a different space-time, altogether.

The New Testament, building on ancient biblical prophecy, envisages that the creator God will remake heaven and earth entirely, affirming the goodness of the old Creation but overcoming its mortality and corruptibility (e.g., Romans 8:18-27; Revelation 21:1; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22). When that happens, Jesus will appear within the resulting new world (e.g., Colossians 3:4; 1 John 3:2).

Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus’ “coming†or “appearing,†those who are still alive will be “changed†or “transformed†so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Theslonians, but here he borrows imageryâ€â€from biblical and political sourcesâ€â€to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.

 

[Lewis]

The thing is, it does not matter what you think, if you have not the Holy Ghost, you can't know the truth. So we expect those kinds of statements from the unsaved. I am not trying to be mean here, but if you don't believe there is nothing we can do about it. The thing is that, Jesus knows that you doubt His Word. But let me tell you this one day you will believe. And what do you mean by the American obsession with the Second Coming of Christ ? A true Christian is going to go by the Word of God, and if the Bible says that Jesus is coming again. Then Jesus is coming again.
The Bible has not been proven wrong yet. You guy's just take and twist things in the Word of God, with your secular mind set. Then try to push it off on us Christians, but it won't work. The reason that I am talking this way, is because I get tired of people putting down the Word of God. As I said in another post, that is all that some people come here to do. And that last statement is for who ever it pertains to. And we are going to crack down on a lot of this obsessive putting down of Christianity. Because first of all this is a Christian board, not secular. When people join this board you they agree with the Rules and Statement Of Faith. But as soon as they get on the board, and look around a little bit, they start putting down Christ and His Word. Like I said a crack down is in order.

 

[Judy]

Rev 4:1 pictures the Rapture & from then on, the church isn't mentioned

The Great Tribulation starts in Rev 6

Must go

Ian

Ian, check out the topic I started on"The word "church" being absent from Revelation 4-19 "

 

[JM]

Man, have I come along way...the Church is the fulfillment of Israel [type/picture]. True Israel is the elect, with the promises made to Abraham being fulfilled in the NT Church. It doesn't matter if the word Church is used or not, God has one elect [in the OT taken from the National Israel, in the NT taken from the world and brought into the Church].

 

[Vic C.]

Man, have I come along way...the Church is the fulfillment of Israel [type/picture]. True Israel is the elect, with the promises made to Abraham being fulfilled in the NT Church. It doesn't matter if the word Church is used or not, God has one elect [in the OT taken from the National Israel, in the NT taken from the world and brought into the Church].

Yes you have! Wanna go a little further? Try using the word ekklesia or ecclesia instead of church. It's meaning fits SO much better with the OT.

 

[I Reckon Sow]

I know there are quite a few people out there who do not believe in the Rapture and that it doesn't appear in the Bible. My question to those people is, what is going to happen if the rapture is not going to take place?

True believers will be protected just as the bible says. After all, we are not appointed to wrath.

JOHN 17 [14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [15] I PRAY NOT THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, BUT THAT THOU SHOULDEST KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL. [16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

ISAIAH 26 [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] COME, MY PEOPLE, ENTER THOU INTO THY CHAMBERS, AND SHUT THY DOORS ABOUT THEE: HIDE THYSELF AS IT WERE FOR A LITTLE MOMENT, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. [21] For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

No need for a rapture. Nothing to worry about. Just gotta play a little hide and seek till Gods wrath (His indignation) has passed. You might also notice the dead in Christ rising first (as mentioned in 1 Cor.15).

ZEPH. 2 [1] Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; [2] Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you. [3] SEEK YE THE LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: IT MAY BE YE SHALL BE HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER.

See? We will be here on earth during the Day of the Lord. But were gonna have a good hiding place.

PROVERBS 3 [22] So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck. [23] Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble. [24] When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. [25] BE NOT AFRAID of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. [26] For THE LORD SHALL BE THY CONFIDENCE, AND SHALL KEEP THY FOOT FROM BEING TAKEN.

Show no fear when Jesus returns to get rid of the bad guys.

PSALM 9 [5] Thou hast rebuked the heathen, THOU HAST DESTROYED THE WICKED, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever. [6] O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them. [7] But the Lord shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment. [8] And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness. [9] THE LORD ALSO WILL BE A REFUGE FOR THE OPPRESSED, A REFUGE IN TIMES OF TROUBLE. [10] And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, Lord, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

PSALM 12 [3] The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: [4] Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us? [5] For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, NOW WILL I ARISE, saith the Lord; I WILL SET HIM IN SAFETY from him that puffeth at him.

I kinda knew all along that Jesus could protect His people in times of trouble even before I found these scriptures. We are not apointed to wrath and now we know why. A little game of hide and seek the Lord.

PROVERBS 1 [26] I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; [27] When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. [28] THEN SHALL THEY CALL UPON ME, BUT I WILL NOT ANSWER; THEY SHALL SEEK ME EARLY, BUT THEY SHALL NOT FIND ME: [29] For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord: [30] They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. [31] Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. [32] For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. [33] BUT WHOSO HEARKENETH UNTO ME SHALL DWELL SAFELY, AND SHALL BE QUIET FROM FEAR OF EVIL.

They did not choose the “fear of the Lordâ€Â. Hmm…..Anyone know what that means? THE FEAR OF THE LORD? Does it have anything to do with Gods 10 commandments?

PSALM 37 [7] Rest in the Lord, and WAIT PATIENTLY FOR HIM: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. [8] Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. [9] FOR EVILDOERS SHALL BE CUT OFF: BUT THOSE THAT WAIT UPON THE LORD, THEY SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH. [10] For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. [11] But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Yup. Be patient. The bad guys shall be cut off. Wait upon the Lord, and we shall inherit the earth

 

[BradtheImpaler]

...what is going to happen if the rapture is not going to take place?

Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins will continue to make $millions$ on sequels to "Left Behind"? :wink:

 

[DivineNames]

As Jesus said in Matthew 24 - 'such as has never been before, or will be again'

I have seen a “partial†preterist explain this as not to be taken literally. This was argued on the basis of similar statements in the Old Testament.

 

[DivineNames]

This dramatic end-time scenario is based (wrongly, as we shall see) on Paul’s First Letter to the Thessalonians, where he writes: “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord†(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

What on earth (or in heaven) did Paul mean?

It is Paul who should be credited with creating this scenario. Jesus himself, as I have argued in various books, never predicted such an event. The gospel passages about “the Son of Man coming on the clouds†(Mark 13:26, 14:62, for example) are about Jesus’ vindication, his “coming†to heaven from earth.

As far as I can see, what is found in Matthew does correspond well with what Paul had said–

then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:30-31 RSV)

 

[reznwerks]

[quote="I Reckon Sow
True believers will be protected just as the bible says. After all, we are not appointed to wrath.

[/quote]
Interesting how you just pull passages out first from the N/T then jump into the O/T and then group them together in order to make a point. Do you want to tell us what PSALMS is really about? How about telling us what Isaiah is about. The rapture talks about 144,000 being saved. The earth has about what 6 billion people. Do the math.You must have one heck of an ego if you think you are in the chosen few. If I were you I would think twice about looking forward to the rapture.

 

[Vic C.]

The rapture talks about 144,000 being saved. The earth has about what 6 billion people. Do the math.You must have one heck of an ego if you think you are in the chosen few. If I were you I would think twice about looking forward to the rapture.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


Where in God's Creation did you get that only 144,00 will be saved? The "rapture" as you say, doesn't "talk" about anything of the sort. The "rapture" "talks" about nothing. The "Rapture" as many people understand it. isn't even in the Bible. :-?

 

[I Reckon Sow]

[quote="I Reckon Sow
True believers will be protected just as the bible says. After all, we are not appointed to wrath.

Interesting how you just pull passages out first from the N/T then jump into the O/T and then group them together in order to make a point. Do you want to tell us what PSALMS is really about? How about telling us what Isaiah is about. The rapture talks about 144,000 being saved. The earth has about what 6 billion people. Do the math.You must have one heck of an ego if you think you are in the chosen few. If I were you I would think twice about looking forward to the rapture.[/quote]

The reason i do this is because theres nothing in the new that is not in the old. Why look forward to something thats not (as the raturist claim) written in the prophets. I aint kiddin. The rapturist say theres nothing written about the rapture in the book of the prophets. They really says this.

Whats the WORD of GOD say?

AMOS 3 [6] Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?[7] Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Yeah, in a way the rapturist are right. There is nothing about the rapture revealed in the book of the prophets.

In case your wondering. The Psalms is all about Jesus. PRAISE BE THE LORD!

Isaiah- About His coming

PS- Im only called, not choosen